Chinese Raid Defiant Village, Killing 2, Amid Rural Unrest
> NYT April 20, 2001 > > Chinese Raid Defiant Village, Killing 2, Amid Rural Unrest > > By ERIK ECKHOLM > > [Y]UNTANG, China, April 18 Before dawn last Sunday, more than 600 police and >paramilitary troops stormed this village in southern China and opened fire on a >gathering crowd of unarmed farmers, killing 2 and wounding at least 18, witnesses and >local officials say. > > The shootings, which have not been reported in the Chinese news media, were one of >the most severe known incidents of civil strife in recent years, the latest act in a >three- year struggle pitting the 1,400 residents of Yuntang against township and >county officials. The villagers have refused to pay what they call illegal and >impossibly high local taxes and fees, and the officials have labeled the villagers a >"criminal gang." > > As a tangible sign of their resistance, the villagers erected a strong iron gate >across the only road into Yuntang last year, keeping it locked and guarded to prevent >the entry of official vehicles. > > The bitter strife in this village and untold others reflects the anger and despair >among the millions of farm families in China's traditional breadbasket region. Even >as the national economy booms, in villages across central and southern China incomes >have stagnated, most young people migrate to coastal cities to perform menial jobs, >and local governments are so short of money that officials and teachers often go >unpaid for months at a time. > > The use of gunfire against unarmed, protesting citizens has been rare in recent >years and Sunday's hushed-up clash is a sharp reminder of the domestic pressures >bearing down on the country's leaders and the Communist Party as they try to >modernize China without losing control of it. > > The shooting in Yuntang with its echoes of the unresolved national trauma of the >1989 shooting of hundreds of demonstrators around Tiananmen Square stemmed in part >from the economic strains that are bound to grow as China joins the World Trade >Organization and opens up industries and agriculture. > > The people of Yuntang remain defiant but also fearful of further reprisals, and >when a foreign reporter unexpectedly arrived, he was quickly told to leave. One older >man apologized, saying, "If the Communist regime knows we are meeting the foreign >press, they might level our village." > > The authorities of Jiangxi Province, where this rice-farming village of the lower >Yangtze basin lies, have managed to largely suppress news of the killings. Still, >villagers say the authorities apparently recognized the potentially explosive nature >of the news because the evening of the incident a provincial deputy Communist Party >secretary was dispatched to the village, and he promised an investigation. > > The deadly clash in Yuntang is the latest sign of instability in Jiangxi, a >relatively poor province known as a cradle of Mao's Communist revolution. Another >county not far from Yuntang was the site of another major, internationally publicized >conflict last August, when more than 10,000 farmers protesting high taxes rampaged >through township offices and the homes of officials. There is no sign that farmers >from the two restless counties have joined forces, forming the kind of rural movement >that the authorities are especially anxious to prevent. > > And Jiangxi Province's top two officials were replaced after a deadly explosion in >March at a primary school where, local residents said, students had been forced to >make fireworks. In that case, which aroused popular suspicion and anger, local >authorities apparently misled leaders in Beijing about activities at the school. >While Prime Minister Zhu Rongji did not publicly rebut the official account that the >explosion was the work of a madman, he did issue a highly unusual public apology for >the accident. > > The Yuntang shootings fly in the face of a warning issued by the prime minister to >local authorities in a 1999 speech. Discussing the wide concern over rural tax >burdens, Mr. Zhu publicly admonished officials to respond with understanding rather >than force. > > The provincial authorities apparently face a quandary: should they praise the >officials of Yujiang County and Zhongtong township for safeguarding public order, or >should they fire those who planned this attack, or even punish some for murder? >Officials must also decide whether to press charges against Su Guosheng, a village >leader who had dared to take complaints about local corruption and excess taxes all >the way to Beijing and, villagers said, was detained the day before the raid. > > The villagers are still waiting for answers and have kept a pile of empty shell >casings as well as the bodies of the two dead men, Yu Xinguang, 38, and Yu Xinquan, >22, as potential evidence. They say they have not heard back from the detained Mr. >Su, and fear he will be beaten to death in poli
Re: AIDS Drugs Victory
At 19/04/01 12:44 -0700, Michael wrote: >Was there any fine print in the settlement with the pharmaceutical pirates >in S. Africa? Whatever the fine print this is a world historic victory! Congratulations to all who had anything to do with it! But as I predicted, according to the editorial in today's Guardian (UK) there is indeed some linkage to international financial arrangements. You just heard about them first on this list, from me. >What is needed now is resources. There is no shortage of ideas. One of the >most practicable is the World Bank's proposal for an trust fund built up >over 10 years. What is needed now is not more talk, but immediate action. Other discrete understandings between governments will indeed remain off record. But for the drug companies to back off so much, strongly suggests their retreat was helped a little, quite possibly by such notorious reformists as Gordon Brown. (He is after all just a temporary vessel for the historical materialist dialectic.) The precedents for campaigning are now global and include all health issues. But the focus will remain on AIDS at the moment. As the editorial says, >International attention now switches to Brazil, which is due to be brought >before a World Trade Organisation tribunal for breaching drug patent laws >by the US government. No developing state has done more to curb the >HIV/Aids epidemic. It has invested heavily in preventive programmes, but >crucially has also achieved free access to drugs through generic >manufacture. This has enabled Brazil to cut its death rate from Aids in >half and stabilise the spread of the disease. It is in even more need of >international support for pioneering a programme that can be copied by >other developing states. The case is driven by two US companies, Merck and >Pfizer, putting profits before people. Hopefully, after the industry's >humiliation in South Africa, they will think again. What bets on success here? Will Bush offer discrete sweeteners to Merck and Pfizer? Will the movement in Brazil work as effectively as that in South Africa, where many of the protagonists, either in government or outside, shared a common cultural political background in the Mass Democratic Movement, and the Anti-Apartheid Movement? It is important that the movement in Brazil is not markedly less successful than that in South Africa, and preferably much more so. It would be easier if the World Bank's trust fund was not so piddling and not stretched over 10 years. (How piddling is it? It will certainly be piddling by comparison to the daily turnover of transactions on the global foreign exchange markets). Or, another question for Patrick Bond, should activists distract from this momentum now by trying to abolish the World Bank? Some things can look left in form but turn out to be right in essence Chris Burford London
Re: Naomic Klein on FTAA meeting in Quebec
- Original Message - From: "Ken Hanly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "pen-l" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: [PEN-L:10439] Naomic Klein on FTAA meeting in Quebec > Does anyone know which civil society represenatives have been invited to the > meeting? >Cheers, Ken Hanly > You might be able to find out at: http://www.americascanada.org/menu-e.asp http://www.quebecsummitoftheamericas.ca/sommet.nsf [if nothing else they've got some great graphics!] Ian
Single Payer Meeting --Wash. County Oregon
Health Care for All Oregon has finally passed through the legal process required to submit an iniative to the voter in Oregon. Within 3 weeks we will be circulating petitions to place on the ballot Measure 27: Measure 27 will kick the insurance bureaucrats out of the health care business and provide high quality coverage for every Oregon resident. The meeting will be held: Thursday, April 26th 6:45 P.M. Hillsboro Public Library, Tanasbourne Branch 2453 NW 185th Hillsboro (Across 185th from Tanasbourne Mall Between Hwy 26 and Cornell Rd In same lot as Chevys, Safeway, RiteAid, Sheris In corner by Verizon, Radio Shack and RoundTable Pizza) for more info on initiative http://www.healthcareforalloregon.org/ Please forward Thanks Gar
Re: Naomic Klein on FTAA meeting in Quebec
Ken asks: > Does anyone know which civil society represenatives have been invited to the [FTAA] meeting?< is there some sort of official "civil society," which has representatives? how can I join? what is the membership fee? - This message was sent using Panda Mail. Check your regular email account away from home free! http://bstar.net/panda/
question for Max
Now that Max has returned to the fold perhaps he can tell us what lies hidden in the budget. Have the Democrats made much of the fact that the budget counts revenues from drilling in ANWAR? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chossudovsky on the FTAA
What lies behind the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA)?
THE QUEBEC WALL
By Michel Chossudovsky, Professor of Economics, University of
Ottawa
The Summit of the Americas will be held inside a four kilometer
"bunker" made of concrete and galvanized steel fencing. The 10
feet high "Quebec Wall" encircles part of the historic city center
including the parliamentary compound of the National Assembly,
hotels and shopping areas. Cars will enter through closely guarded
checkpoints; laissez-passers have been issued to official
delegations, to the CEOs of major banks and corporations, as well
as approved media and "selected invitees." (Click to see map of the
"Security Perimeter" at
http://www.securitesommet.ca/pages/p_citoyen/p_cito_pe_f.html).
Outside the bunker, more than 6,000 police and security forces are
on hand, equipped not only with "pepper spray" but also with "multi-
shot" Arwen 37 guns shooting hard-coated plastic bullets. The latter
--according to a RCMP spokesperson-- are
". 'meant to crack a rib and put them in a lot of pain', . Tactical
squads are usually required to test such less-lethal weapons --such
as Tasers, which deliver electric shocks-- on themselves. But
Toronto Police Constable Leighton said it would be 'too dangerous'
to do so with the Arwen." 1
With Canadian Armed Forces personnel dispatched to Quebec's
capital from military bases in Nova Scotia, the security apparatus in
Quebec promises to be "better organized" than at the Seattle WTO
Millenium Summit in 1999. In Seattle, the city's riot police was
integrated with Gang Squads and SWAT teams of the Tactical
Operations Divisions constituting the "more militarized components"
of the police force.
By any standard this is the largest police operation in North
America directed against ordinary citizens. Rather than "cordoning
off" the conference center which is standard practice in international
summits-- the Canadian authorities have chosen to "fence in" a
large part of the downtown area --not only denying the rights of
citizens to protest but also preventing residents from moving
around within their own city.
And those who defy the Quebec Wall will be taken to Orsainville
penitentiary which has been emptied of its entire prison population
(including several members of the Hells Angels) to make room for
these more dangerous "troublemakers."
THE QUEBEC WALL IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL
Barely a week before the Summit, the Canadian and provincial
governments, the City of Quebec and Quebec City's Police force
were taken to court by a Montreal lawyer and the Vancouver based
Canadian Liberty Committee (CLC). In a signed affidavit, the
Canadian government representative stated that democracy was
not under threat, to ensure:
''freedom of expression . the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and
International Trade has [sent] invitations to the Summit to
approximately 60 representatives of interest groups and lobby
groups." 2
Moreover, "alternative protest sites" ("sites alternatifs de
manifestation") have been designated --on the other side of the
Wall-- so that the rank and file of these same civil society
organisations can do their own thing.
The "People's Summit", organized by NGOs and major trade
unions-- will receive "financial contributions for the holding of
seminars, colloquia and public meetings."3 The federal government
has allocated Can$287,000-- a comfortable amount of money, but
"peanuts" in comparison to the 46 million dollar budget allocated by
Ottawa for the police operation and the erection of the Wall.
WHO'S IN, WHO'S OUT
The official list of civil society invitees has not been made public but
we have a good idea who the "partner" civil society organizations
are. The invitees include leaders of major trade union federations
as well as several CEOs of mainstream NGOs. 4
The ritual is broadly similar to that of the 1999 Seattle World Trade
Organization (WTO) Millenium Summit. Several months ahead of
time, the WTO and Western governments had called for a
"dialogue" with the leaders of selected civil society organisations. A
carefully worded AFL-CIO petition had been drafted urging the
WTO Summit to adopt "trade and investment rules [which] protect
workers' rights and the environment". In Seattle, Labor's buzzword
was to "make the global economy work for working families". 5
Similarly, last January at the global business Summit in Davos --
regrouping the World's top corporate execs, heads of State and
VIPs, the leaders of some 59 "civil society" organisations --
including the CEOs of Greenpeace, Oxfam UK, Amnesty
International and Save the Children Alliance-- were also in
attendance.
The ploy is to selectively handpick civil society leaders "whom we
can trust" and integrate them into a "dialogue", cut them off from
their rank and file, make them feel that they are "global citizens"
acting on behalf of their fellow workers but make them act in a way
wh
Naomic Klein on FTAA meeting in Quebec
Does anyone know which civil society represenatives have been invited to the meeting? Cheers, Ken Hanly The Globe & Mail April 18, 2001 Lies, damned lies and statistics Numbers extolling the benefits of free trade just don't add up, unless they appear in a corporate account by Naomi Klein Brian Mulroney thinks the numbers are his friends. He proudly points to the percentage of Canada's gross domestic product now made up by exports to the United States -- 40 per cent! The number of jobs created by trade -- four in five! And Mexico's status as an important U.S. trading partner -- second only to Canada! These numbers are a vindication, our former prime minister believes, for the free-trade deals he negotiated first with the United States, then with Mexico. He still doesn't get it: Those numbers aren't his friends; they're his worst enemy. Opposition to free trade has grown, and grown more vocal, precisely because private wealth has soared without translating into anything that can be clearly identified as the public good. It's not that critics don't know how much money is being made under free trade -- it's that we know all too well. While there's no shortage of numbers pointing to increases in exports and investment, the trickle-down effects promised as the political incentive for deregulation -- tougher environmental standards, higher wages, better working conditions, less poverty -- have either been pitifully incremental or non-existent. The labour and environmental side agreements tacked on to the North American free-trade agreement have a spectacularly poor track record. Today, 75 per cent of Mexico's population lives in poverty, up from 49 per cent in 1981. Trade may be creating jobs in Canada but not enough of them to keep up with the number of jobs that have been eliminated -- by 1997, there had been a net loss of 276,000 jobs, according to the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. Total pollution has doubled in Mexico since NAFTA was introduced, according to the Sierra Club. And the United States has become a climate-change renegade, chucking out its Kyoto commitments wholesale. It turns out that defiant unilateralism is the ultimate luxury item in the free-trade era, reserved for the ultra rich. There is always a ready excuse for why the wealth liberated by so-called free trade is stuck at the top: a recession, the deficit, the peso crisis, political corruption, and now another looming recession. There is always a reason why it should be spent on another tax break instead of social or environmental programs. Only economists worship wealth creation as an abstraction, only the very rich fetishize it as an end in itself. The rest of us are interested in those rising numbers on the trade ledger for what they can buy: Does increased trade and investment mean we can afford to rebuild our health-care system? Can we keep our promises to end child poverty? Can we fund better schools? Build affordable housing? Can we afford to invest in cleaner energy sources? Do we work less, have more leisure time? In short, do we have a better, more just, sustainable society? The opposite is the case. As Mr. Mulroney was kind enough to admit on Monday, "free trade is part of a whole that includes the GST, deregulation, privatization, and a concerted effort to reduce deficits, inflation, and interest rates." These are the domestic preconditions of playing the global-trade game -- a package that, taken together, guarantees that the numbers Mr. Mulroney touts so proudly do little to address stagnant wages, economic disparities and a deepening environmental crisis. And when economic growth is severed from meaningful measures of social progress, thinking people begin to lose faith in the system. They start to ask difficult questions not only about trade, but about how economists measure progress and value. Why can't we measure ecological deficits, as well as economic growth? What is the real social cost -- in cuts to education, in increased homelessness -- of the whole package of policies referred to by Mr. Mulroney? These are the types of questions that will be heard in Quebec City this week. They will come from people such as Jos, Bov,, the French cheese farmer whose campaign is not against McDonald's but against an agricultural model that sees food purely as an industrial commodity, rather than the centrepiece of national culture and family life. They will come from health-care workers questioning a trade system that defends patents for AIDS drugs more vigorously than millions of human lives. They will come from university students, paying more for their "public" education every year, while their schools have been invaded by ads and their research departments are being privatized one study at a time. The slogan "people before profits" is dismissed as unfocused by free-trade defenders, but it neatly encapsulates the sentiment running through the campaigns that are converging in Quebec City. The argument for barrel
RE: Re: It's a Jungle In Here
Right now it's hopeless. I prefer "Make work pay!" Work-conditioned benefits, and gigunda refundable tax credits. max Make what do you think of the slogan: Bring back welfare ! ( It's a jungle out there for some ) Charles >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 11:23AM >>> I have resubbed to this list, but with great tr
Re: Re: The case for reparations
> >As the movement for reparations grows, I expect the definition of >blackness to change. It will have to. But to what? Any ideas? Best, John R Henry CPP Visit the Quick Changeover website at http://www.changeover.com Subscribe to the Quick Changeover Newsletter at http://www.changeover.com/newsletter.htm
Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
> >my apologies: i did not mean to imply (as my message did since it >was in response to yours) that you were making the argument based >on the difficulty of implementation - someone else was and my >reference was to that argument. I think you may mean me, since I originally asked the question. Please note that I did not and have not taken any position here on the moral rightness or wrongness of the issue. I did not say that reparations should not be paid, nor did I say they should. I merely asked how any organization paying reparations would resolve the logistical problem of determining who qualified. I've not heard any suggestions in response yet. Under current US law, and probably under the Constitution unless it was amended, all 270MM American citizens could claim a share of any reparations. How do we get around that problem? Best, John R Henry CPP Visit the Quick Changeover website at http://www.changeover.com Subscribe to the Quick Changeover Newsletter at http://www.changeover.com/newsletter.htm
Re: models
I'm teaching a course at the moment on the topic of alternative models of socialism. (The syllabus is available to those who send me an offline e-mail message.) This week the book was Hilary Wainwright's interesting Arguments for a New Left. There are a number of models out there, but the issues are complex, and, from my perspective, no one has quite put it altogether as yet. Peter Fred Guy wrote: I'm an occasional lurker on this list. I can see that the discussion of models of socialism is not terribly popular, not surprisingly, since it is contentious and speculative. To say nothing of raising the very tough problem of the lacunae in Engels' blithe reference to "the administration of things", such as substantial problems of both information and accountability
Re: models
At 19/04/01 16:49 +0100, you wrote: >I'm an occasional lurker on this list. I can see that the discussion of >models of socialism is not terribly popular, not surprisingly, since it >is contentious and speculative. To say nothing of raising the very tough > >problem of the lacunae in Engels' blithe reference to "the >administration of things", such as substantial problems of both >information and accountability. >Fred Guy >Department of Management >School of Management and Organizational Psychology >Birkbeck College >Malet St. >London WC1E 7HX These two issues are carefully discussed by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell in their book "Towards a New Socialism" Spokesman 1993. I have seen it just up the road from you in Waterstones. Paul is based in Glasgow, and is still pursuing this subject, in particular the quantum relationship between information and work. Chapter 6 of the book above goes into "Detailed Planning" . I cannot claim to have done it full justice. While I accept the argument that computer power has expanded to the volume that a centralised economy would no longer need to rely on very crude output quotas, I am not sure that sheer mass of computer power would deal with the relative bias of subordinate units not to report all their surpluses and to magnify their needs - ie a certain fuzziness and relativity in how the information would go round a network rather than a fully centalized system. The British National Health Service has this problem and is large enough to be an interesting example of how a semi-socialist system might work. However it is not a complete disaster, for all the cynicism of the present government in mortgaging its assets to landed finance capital. Of course we need better and psychologically informed managers in it, if only to train people to think how to capture relevant information and feed it willingly and accurately into the computers, and then to use it. Perhaps you have the answer. Chris Burford London
models
The critique of utopianism that Engels and Marx made over one hundred years ago is somewhat out of date as there has been over 80 years of practical experience with building socialism from which to draw scientific, not utopian conclusions . CB >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 12:22PM >>> Actually, discussion of models of socialism _is_ popular here--it;s just that Michael P can't stand the discussion, and stomps on it when it emerges. Sorry, Michael, you do! --jks >From: Fred Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Progressive Economics <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [PEN-L:10402] models >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:49:05 +0100 > >I'm an occasional lurker on this list. I can see that the discussion of >models of socialism is not terribly popular, not surprisingly, since it >is contentious and speculative. To say nothing of raising the very tough > >problem of the lacunae in Engels' blithe reference to "the >administration of things", such as substantial problems of both >information and accountability. > _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
The case for reparations
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 12:31PM >>>If you talk to people close to the >movement, you would learn that the point is not to establish some system of precise transactions wherein the government delivers payments to whomever is classified as black. This is all reductionist legalistic twaddle, the stuff of secondary political arguments. The point is that establishing the idea of a large debt that stems from fundamental economic injustice, and that elevates the case for in some significant way acting to redress the injustice. This kind of discussion is easily related, I would suggest, to a more general one about the arbitrariness (from the standpoint of merit, rights, or social well- being) of wealth transfer. It opens the way, therefore, for bringing class back in, though that is not its main purpose. (( CB: Yea, that's the ticket. Rather than contradicting the reparations demand, segway it into a larger laboring class demand: Payback the whole working class for surplus labor extracted.
Re: Re: The case for reparations
On Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 07:44:25 (-0700) Michael Perelman writes: >Bill, I thought that Ian was just being humerous. Yes, the M' exceeds M, >but these equations just give a capitalist vision of reality. Say that I >buy a slave for $1 and make a good that I sell for $5. But if I had to go >back an repay the slave for the unpaid labor, I might have to pay $10. Well, I suppose it all depends on what one is trying to conserve in the zero-sum game: wealth, energy, time? If we consider only wealth, perhaps also limit ourselves to the US during the post-slavery period, I think wealth has broadly increased, and I don't see exploitation increasing at the same time (though perhaps I'm wrong about this). Aside from pure monetary/material wealth, people are also much better educated as Doug points out, political and civil rights have increased also ... To me, zero-sum means that in order for wealth of one person to increase, that of another must decrease (Pareto inefficient), but we clearly violate that, even (I think) when we look more broadly. Bill
Re: It's a Jungle In Here
Make what do you think of the slogan: Bring back welfare ! ( It's a jungle out there for some ) Charles >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 11:23AM >>> I have resubbed to this list, but with great tr
Re: Re: Quote of the Day: May Day is on the way
A strong claim for John being a leftist, if not socialist, could be made by perusing the interview with John by Tariq Ali in the "Red Mole" circa '71. Reprinted in Ramparts a few months later. Jon Weiner and the So. Ca. Civil Liberties Union pried loose John's FBI files, a few yrs. ago. See the book Weiner published last yr. And the album, that the song Doug cites is from, originally had the notorious butcher block cover. The fab four in butcher smocks with blood of dismembered dolls. Their comment on the Harold Wilson Labour gov't. support for US aggression against Vietnam. The original butcher block cover goes for hundreds of dollars now in record stores like Amoeba in S.F. Michael Pugliese - Original Message - From: "Doug Henwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:15 PM Subject: [PEN-L:10426] Re: Quote of the Day: May Day is on the way > Charles Brown wrote: > > >"...The Beatles were not socialists , but they were progressively > >subversive of > >capitalist culture. > > > Taxman > (George Harrison) > Lead Vocal: George Harrison > > [1,2,3,4 > > Hrmm! > > 1,2... > > 1,2,3,4.] > > Let me tell you how it will be > There's one for you, nineteen for me > 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman > > Should five per cent appear too small > Be thankful I don't take it all > 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman > > If you drive a car, I'll tax the street > If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat > If you get too cold I'll tax the heat > If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet > > Taxman! > 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman > > Don't ask me what I want it for (Aahh Mr. Wilson) > If you don't want to pay some more (Aahh Mr. Heath) > 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman > > Now my advice for those who die > Declare the pennies on your eyes > 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman > > And you're working for no one but me > Taxman! >
question for Patrick Bond
Was there any fine print in the settlement with the pharmaceutical pirates in S. Africa? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is going on?
Brad DeLong wrote: > >> 2) to what do you attribute this change? economic liberalisation? > > Well, that is economists' conventional wisdom--that the "neoliberal" > economic reforms of the Narasimha Rao government in the early 1990s were > the decisive change. Dani Rodrik, however, argues that the structural > break comes more than half a decade earlier, and that the more likely > key was the Rajiv Gandhi government's decision to ease restrictions on > imports of capital goods, which he argues (and I argue) are a key link > in that they not only boost productivity directly but also carry a great > deal of technology across national borders. > > I would have to say that I really don't know what has transformed India > from an economy in which it takes more than 60 years for GDP per capita > to double to one in which it takes less than 20 years for GDP per capita > to double. > brad, thanks for your response. your answers are helpful but perhaps i should also mention the hidden question: do you see this rise in growth/GDP as a "good thing" (for india)? do these numbers translate to anything for the common man? those who responded to did so in a manner that suggests that you consider GDP as a sufficient measure of quality of life. is that true? if it is, i do not want to bother you with what are probably elementary questions in economic theory, but let me ask, especially in light of the zero sum thread that is currently being discussed on the list, if these gains are at the cost of long term harm (especially in a country like india where environmental regulation are lax and enforcement is non-existant, and that is partly true for labour rights, social security, etc)? in short, would you call the changes in india positive and proof of the effectiveness of free market systems working with a liberal social agenda, such as seems to be the claim (not about india, but about the combination of free markets and liberalism) of someone like paul krugman of MIT (princeton?). --ravi ps: reading through my copy of dewey's "liberalism and social action" and the use of the term "neoliberalism" above, i realize the ambiguity of the term "liberalism" itself, and to clarify, i use it to mean socio-political liberalism such as found among the "liberals" in the US. i hope that serves as clarification!
Re: Quote of the Day: May Day is on the way
Charles Brown wrote: >"...The Beatles were not socialists , but they were progressively >subversive of >capitalist culture. Taxman (George Harrison) Lead Vocal: George Harrison [1,2,3,4 Hrmm! 1,2... 1,2,3,4.] Let me tell you how it will be There's one for you, nineteen for me 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman Should five per cent appear too small Be thankful I don't take it all 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman If you drive a car, I'll tax the street If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat If you get too cold I'll tax the heat If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet Taxman! 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman Don't ask me what I want it for (Aahh Mr. Wilson) If you don't want to pay some more (Aahh Mr. Heath) 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman Now my advice for those who die Declare the pennies on your eyes 'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman And you're working for no one but me Taxman!
Drop the Debt Call-in Day - April 25th
- Original Message - From: Mara L. Vanderslice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 7:30 PM Subject: [j2000-grassroots] Drop the Debt Call-in Day - April 25th Dear Jubilee campaigners, Please send this out to your networks and get out the word for the first major grassroots action of the new Jubilee USA Network. Join us in getting over 10,000 calls to President Bush! -- Drop the Debt: Jubilee USA Network National Call-In Day to Cancel Crushing Debt to the World Bank and IMF *Help us get 10,000 calls to President Bush on April 25th!* Call the White House Wednesday, April 25th - 9-5pm EST 202-456- The international Jubilee movement has had tremendous success in the last few years in bringing the world's attention to the unbearable burden of debt imposed on the world's poorest countries. Together we have made some gains in achieving actual debt relief that is making a difference in real people's lives. Yet much more is needed. The majority of the debt of the poorest nations has not been cancelled. Many countries still spend more on debt service than on health care and education. In light of the HIV/AIDS and other health crises in Africa, it is not tolerable for countries to continue to spend more on debt than on health care and basic education. It is time for the World Bank and the IMF to use their ample internal resources to cancel the debts owed them by the most impoverished countries. Harmful and failed economic policies, like user-fees for health and education, should not be imposed as conditions for debt cancellation. Rather, we should seek to insure that the priorities of the people in these countries are met--for investments in health care, schooling and clean water. The Jubilee USA Network is calling for President Bush to use U.S. leverage to make the World Bank and IMF cancel the debts of the poorest countries now using their own resources. Here's what you can do: Call the White House comment line on Wednesday, April 25th and follow the prompts until you reach a live human being: 202-456-. If the line is busy and you can't get through please send a fax to: 202-456-2461. Here's what you can say: 1) Africa is being devastated by HIV/AIDS and other health crises, yet many countries continue to pay more in debt service than on health care. 2) I am calling to ask President Bush to make the World Bank and IMF cancel 100% of the debts owed them by the poor countries using their own internal resources and not more taxpayer money so that monies can be used for primary health care and education. 3) I want the President to retain the legislation passed by Congress last year to eliminate user-fees imposed by the World Bank and IMF. Feel free to personalize your statement and always ask to leave your name and city. Please also call with the same message: Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill at 202-622-1100 or fax: 202-622-6415 and Secretary of State Colin Powell at the State Department at 202-647-6575 or fax: 202-261-8577 Congratulations! Thank you for helping to make history by joining the Jubilee USA Network to definitively cancel the crushing debts that continue to enslave millions of our brothers and sisters around the world! For more information on the National Call-In Day please contact Mara Vanderslice at the Jubilee USA Network office at: 202-783-3566 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: The case for reparations
Michael Perelman wrote: >Doug, the answer to your question comes in two parts. First, I am not >sure that the median inhabitant of the planet has much higher incomes >and lives much longer. Surely not those in the bottom quintile. It doesn't make much sense to discuss this question in abstraction from the living reality of precapitalist societies, which requires literature by Franz Boas, Marshall Sahlins, Eric Wolf, etc. to make sense of. If you use the criterion of "income", then one might come to the conclusion that a newly emancipated slave in 1880 lived better than his great-grandfather in Dahomey who might have hunted or fished, grew maize, etc. while wearing a loincloth. But such a comparison is invidious unless you factor in all of the rest: racism, back-breaking stoop labor 12 months a year, vulnerability of the very young and the very old to marketplace vicissitudes, etc. In any case, advances in capitalist productivity have come at the expense of horrendous wars starting from the 1600s when the system was being born. Brecht's "Mother Courage" was about the 30 year war, but he really had World War Two in mind. When I became a socialist in 1967, it was because of the draft and an unjust war. Not because my income was under attack. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
> I'm not sure what exactly the above says, but I may agree with it: the 2nd > law of thermodynamics -- i.e., that in a closed system, disorder increases > over time -- doesn't seem relevant to life on Earth, since it's not a > closed system. Order can be created by use of energy coming from the > outside, i.e., from the Sun. Or if you define the "system" more narrowly, > to exclude stuff deep under the soil, we can get energy from there (e.g., > from oil), allowing people to fight the rise of entropy. > > As Ian seems to be saying, the problem is different. The biosphere is like > an organism which is currently quite sick. > > Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine Well, cells and the organisms that inhabit our eerily beautiful world seem to have sequestered the 2nd law in a big way. Computer engineers are envious as reverse engineering the cell's heat management topology is an enormous challenge. Would that those who design all our other technological systems had the same resolve! Here's a hint of those on the hunt: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/cfpesp/models/referenV.htm http://mebc.elte.hu/mebc/ http://www.cs.wayne.edu/brochure/conrad.html In the meantime, watch the phytoplankton. Ian
Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Jim wrote: >I'm not sure what exactly the above says, but I may agree with it: the 2nd >law of thermodynamics -- i.e., that in a closed system, disorder increases >over time -- doesn't seem relevant to life on Earth, since it's not a >closed system. As far as I recall from my good old days of research in thermodynamics, the 2nd Law applies to any system, open or closed. Moreover, the law doesn't say that "disorder" increases; it says that it doesn't decrease. But then I had never understood what that bloody entropy was anyway. Sabri __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Quote of the Day: May Day is on the way
"...The Beatles were not socialists , but they were progressively subversive of capitalist culture. (Hear, e.g., Give Peace a Chance). In our rap to win the hearts and minds of our People, let's make our philosophy and music the celebrity not some great leader. It is winter in socialism now; but spring will come again. May Day is on the way. In this period dominated by the need for correcting mistakes, we should not miss the chances to develop harbingers of the road, computer path and song to communism bypassing socialism. Some of these are made clearer by the experience of the first decades of socialism. Truly, the dominant part of a paradox of our practice now is taking a step back to relearn some of the direct lessons of capitalism - a step back to take a step forward later. But the underlying line of march of history toward communism, the general advance, continues, despite certain specific advances coming to deadends." - Tannika Henry
Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Michael Perelman wrote: > > Ravi wrote: > i think it is > disingenuous to suggest that any remuneration be denied on the > grounds that determining qualification is a difficult problem). > > No problem. I never argued against reparations, even though I fear that the > debate about the subject would turn on "how" rather than "why" reparations are > justified. > my apologies: i did not mean to imply (as my message did since it was in response to yours) that you were making the argument based on the difficulty of implementation - someone else was and my reference was to that argument. w.r.t your response to louis proyect, do you agree that those who wrote before him (proyect) and in response to him, continue to use a paternalistic tone towards the black community and its individual members? i mentioned in my message that the person, whom louis proyect was responding to, brought up [what seemed to me] very legitimate points in opposition of reparations. i am influenced by those points towards the view that one-time reparations might in fact be harmful to the opressed community. to not fall victim to the criticism (of paternalism) that i raise above, i must quickly add that it is up to the community and the individuals to decide on the form of justice. --ravi
Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
>CO2 cycles and atmospheric chemistry aside, the biosphere has rendered the >2nd law >moot for the time being. The question, as Gregory Bateson put it, is >whether there is >a biological analogue to the 2nd law, something that's different from--yet >similar >to-- organismic death I'm not sure what exactly the above says, but I may agree with it: the 2nd law of thermodynamics -- i.e., that in a closed system, disorder increases over time -- doesn't seem relevant to life on Earth, since it's not a closed system. Order can be created by use of energy coming from the outside, i.e., from the Sun. Or if you define the "system" more narrowly, to exclude stuff deep under the soil, we can get energy from there (e.g., from oil), allowing people to fight the rise of entropy. As Ian seems to be saying, the problem is different. The biosphere is like an organism which is currently quite sick. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: BLS Daily Report
>nonetheless, the Fed cut rates in a seemingly panicked way. Is it possible that >they're freaking out about international events? or rising saving by consumers? or >what? -- Jim Devine There is a clear tone of consternation in the WSJ's front page account of the decision to cut. AG has been fairly pleased with the slowdown, as real economy numbers have held up better than expected. His only rationale for cutting on March 20 was to appease the markets, though he had to do so without looking anxious. The article all but says that the dog is being wagged by the tail at this point--the FOMC now acts on the hopes of such ephemera as "the announcement effect." The journal isn't sure they like this or not, because it concedes that the reality of the bubble. Christian
Re: Re: The case for reparations
- Original Message - From: "Michael Perelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:31 AM Subject: [PEN-L:10415] Re: The case for reparations > Doug, the answer to your question comes in two parts. First, I am not > sure that the median inhabitant of the planet has much higher incomes > and lives much longer. Surely not those in the bottom quintile. > > Also, as Ian mention, the 2d law of thermodynamics comes into play. We > are extracting and polluting to such an extent that the game may well > have trouble going on for long. > ** CO2 cycles and atmospheric chemistry aside, the biosphere has rendered the 2nd law moot for the time being. The question, as Gregory Bateson put it, is whether there is a biological analogue to the 2nd law, something that's different from--yet similar to-- organismic death Ian
Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Max Sawicky wrote: > > [clip] > > The politics of reparations in the purely domestic > context, white v. black, are no easier today than ever. > But one can't help but notice that the call for > reparations has more of a political impact than, > say, a call for expanded social welfare programs > or for redistributive policies. It's more of a > conversation launcher. *Debt* is more specific > and pointed an idea than moral obligation or social > welfare. It provokes, perhaps in a way that will > prove useful. Maybe the reason is that contractual > theory is such a strong thing in our society. > > If you talk to people close to the movement, you > would learn that the point is not to establish some > system of precise transactions wherein the government > delivers payments to whomever is classified as black. > This is all reductionist legalistic twaddle, the stuff > of secondary political arguments. The point is that > establishing the idea of a large debt that stems from > fundamental economic injustice, and that elevates > the case for in some significant way acting to > redress the injustice. This kind of discussion > is easily related, I would suggest, to a more > general one about the arbitrariness (from the > standpoint of merit, rights, or social well- > being) of wealth transfer. It opens the way, > therefore, for bringing class back in, though > that is not its main purpose. > This seems a very concise statement of the context in which discussion of reparations should at least start. "It's more of a conversation launcher." This I think is crucial. And it is, of course, crucial to talk about the future but _not_ the future in which reparations would actually be paid; the future to focus on is that nearer future: what kind of a political world would/will it be after two or three years of noisy campaigning for repatriations. There is a book which has the splendid title of _They Should Have Served That Cup of Coffee_. I could imagine a book appearing in, say, 2013, entitled, _They Should Have Paid Those Fucking Reparations._ Carrol
Re: The case for reparations
Doug, the answer to your question comes in two parts. First, I am not sure that the median inhabitant of the planet has much higher incomes and lives much longer. Surely not those in the bottom quintile. Also, as Ian mention, the 2d law of thermodynamics comes into play. We are extracting and polluting to such an extent that the game may well have trouble going on for long. Doug Henwood wrote: > Um, if capitalism is a zero sum game, how come incomes are a million > times higher than they used to be, and how come people live longer, > can read, etc. etc.? > > Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901
Re: Re: The case for reparations
Ravi wrote: i think it is disingenuous to suggest that any remuneration be denied on the grounds that determining qualification is a difficult problem). No problem. I never argued against reparations, even though I fear that the debate about the subject would turn on "how" rather than "why" reparations are justified. ravi narayan wrote: > Michael Perelman wrote: > > > > > Come on, Louis. You can do better than this. Everyone must recognize > > that the administration of reparations will raise difficulties. I suspect > > that the best solution would be to give money to the community rather than > > to individuals, but even then I am not sure how it would be administered. > > > > while i would not call the poster that louis proyect was responding > to "racist", especially in light of the very legitimate points he > raised (that i wish we could also discuss, other than the issue of > racism), i do see paternalism in not treating a group as autonomous > but instead suggesting that they require the oversight of an > external group. in other words, we can discuss the validity of > reparation claims and the issues of how qualification is determined, > but its the same old "we know whats best for you" type of milder > racism to control the use of the reparations. by administration if > you mean administration of the distribution, i agree it raises > difficulties (that i believe can be overcome i.e., i think it is > disingenuous to suggest that any remuneration be denied on the > grounds that determining qualification is a difficult problem). > > --ravi -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chico, CA 95929 530-898-5321 fax 530-898-5901
joke du jour
"This theoretical potential [of the neoclassical "new political economy"] is not fully realized, in the sense that to date research has not led to the emergence of robust testable predictions, say, something comparable in scientific status to the life-cycle theory of savings or the Hecksher-Ohlin theory of international trade." -- Gilles Saint-Paul, in a review of two "new political economy" books, in THE JOURNAL OF ECONOMIC LITERATURE, December 2000. - This message was sent using Panda Mail. Check your regular email account away from home free! http://bstar.net/panda/
Re: models
Fred Guy writes: >... The tendency on the list seems to be to blame the IMF/WTO/USA for forcing markets open and requiring one-size-fits-all neo-liberal policies. Which is true as far as it goes, but why has national resistance crumbled almost everywhere?< Obviously, for a disease to infect a body, the strength of the immune system is part of the process. >Let me suggest ... that changes in the organization of production (roughly speaking, flexible network production as opposed to vertically integrated mass production) worsen the bargaining position of those in the lower 70% of the income distribution vis a vis capital. For instance, it used to be that multi-national manufacturing companies had more to gain than to lose by cooperating with import substitution policies: the mass production model was amenable to establishing dwarf clones of the parent firm (whether by direct operation, partnership, selling turnkey factories, or licensing technology, depending on the national model in question) in protected markets, and the protected markets were ... protected. So a national government could make a deal with capital that sheltered the country from world markets.< I'm not convinced. The "Fordist" production techniques that prevailed before the neoliberal or Post-Fordist era involved large economies of scale. Though the companies benefited from protection (and it seems to be true that international direct investment used to be mostly behind tariff and non-tariff barriers), this meant that they suffered from relatively high costs, because of the limited markets behind the barriers. In some ways, the new "flexible" technology of the neoliberal era fits with these barriers _better_, because economies of scale aren't as important. >ISI doesn't fit with today's production methods (an elaborate international division >of labor, technological, supply and marketing partnerships between firms, and so on), however, and as far as capital is concerned that deal is off. If I may anticipate one obvious response, the new production model is about more than simply outsourcing for cheap labor (though that's part of it); if that were the only change, the national option would still be on offer< I would guess that the fall of the ISI model had a lot to do with the the internal limits of that model, e.g., the inability to take advantage of economies of scale and the encouragement of "X inefficiency" by limits on competition, and also the governments' usual unwillingness to complete the model by widening internal markets via land reform and the like. The popular discontent that motivated bourgeois governments to engage in such populist policies also faded, at least in its ability to shake up the incumbent political class. In the case of state-planned export-led capitalism (S. Korea, etc.), there's another problem, which might be seen in the world-wide overcapacity seen in steel. If each country has to have a steel mill (or whatever) as a matter of national pride and as part of the economic development strategy, it seems almost inevitable that excess capacity would result. Given the internal weaknesses of the ISI model, the debt crisis of the 1980s -- specifically, the encouragement of debt-financed development by our friends at the World Bank and then the high interest rates of the Volcker years -- pried open the ISI model. The IMF/World Bank people leveraged third world debt into the power to impose their model of free market export-oriented development, privatization, deregulation, etc. This, of course, undermined what was left of the effectiveness of the old ISI model, so the neoliberal model has taken off, even if it left most of the people with only crumbs. Something similar can be seen with the state-guided export-led capitalist countries. As for returning to ISI (which seems to be what Louis is in favor of), that seems unlikely given the way that the new model has been "locked in." It was much easier to gain national autonomy 50 or 70 years ago than it is today, since each country is so much more dependent on the world system, being a mere cog in the global machine. Of course it will be tried... -- Jim Devine - This message was sent using Panda Mail. Check your regular email account away from home free! http://bstar.net/panda/
Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
> Bill, I thought that Ian was just being humerous. Yes, the M' exceeds M, > but these equations just give a capitalist vision of reality. Say that I > buy a slave for $1 and make a good that I sell for $5. But if I had to go > back an repay the slave for the unpaid labor, I might have to pay $10. ** Now you're confusing micro with macro. Plus you're assuming the slave has freed her/himself from your bondage and now has the power to exploit you for the sake of repayment. Ian
Re: The case for reparations
Anyone know if the 1951 petition to the U.N. of the Civil Rights Congress, as introduced by William L. Patterson, "We Charge Genocide!, " had as one of it's demands, reparations? It's a hunch of mine that before, Randall Robinson and NCOBRA http://www.google.com/search?q=NCOBRA+&btnG=Google+Search , that this has been a long standing demand. Gerald Horne has a book on the CRC, "Communist Front?, " which s/b worth a look, as well as the new one from Mary Dudziak from Princeton Univ. Press, "Cold War Civil Rights." Michael Pugliese http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=googlet&q=we+charge+g enocide!+civil+rights+congress+william+l.+patterson
RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Um, if capitalism is a zero sum game, how come incomes are a million times higher than they used to be, and how come people live longer, can read, etc. etc.?Doug Zero sum or not, the debt could still be inordinately huge, essentially unpayable. I've been drifting on this issue. Anyone who has followed my blather knows of my relatively narrow preoccupation with class. Not too long ago I would have said, sotto voce, that the reparations discourse was perfectly crafted to divide the working class. I was invited to participate in a panel on the issue and considered that in an international context where debt relief had become a central political issue, the matter of debts among nations -- specifically the debt of colonizers to colonized -- was a different matter. Even though such a debt could be unpayable, raising the issue could have a positive effect on real-world struggles regarding debt relief, technology transfer, etc. The politics of reparations in the purely domestic context, white v. black, are no easier today than ever. But one can't help but notice that the call for reparations has more of a political impact than, say, a call for expanded social welfare programs or for redistributive policies. It's more of a conversation launcher. *Debt* is more specific and pointed an idea than moral obligation or social welfare. It provokes, perhaps in a way that will prove useful. Maybe the reason is that contractual theory is such a strong thing in our society. If you talk to people close to the movement, you would learn that the point is not to establish some system of precise transactions wherein the government delivers payments to whomever is classified as black. This is all reductionist legalistic twaddle, the stuff of secondary political arguments. The point is that establishing the idea of a large debt that stems from fundamental economic injustice, and that elevates the case for in some significant way acting to redress the injustice. This kind of discussion is easily related, I would suggest, to a more general one about the arbitrariness (from the standpoint of merit, rights, or social well- being) of wealth transfer. It opens the way, therefore, for bringing class back in, though that is not its main purpose. Sorry if I've rehashed someone else's points, but I haven't the time to read all the posts on this issue. mbs
Re: models
Fred Guy wrote: >Discussion of national development models seems to be more popular. I >know it's asking for trouble to characterize the views of a list, but >I'll say there is a general bias in favor of state led capitalist >development, whether inward (Argentina, India) or outward (Korea, >Taiwan) looking. Protection and state leadership are seen as >facilitating more equitable distribution within the country in question. This is an odd coupling. Argentina had a powerful union movement, while Korea's development model rested on suppressing the unions. Furthermore, with the departure of an Argentinian from PEN-L, I believe that I am the only person here who has a kind word for Peron. But my support is predicated not on the basis of belief in "state led capitalist development" but in nationalist development that favors the working class and the peasants. This includes Nasser, Peron and Lazaro Cardenas. It would not include Korea or Taiwan. I find the inward or outward distinction sort of confusing. Are you referring to the adoption or non-adoption of exports as the basis for economic development? Sandinista Nicaragua's economy was export-oriented, but it certainly had nothing in common with Korea or Taiwan. The main criterion is which class is favored by the regime in power I think. >What I have missed (and this may be because I am a very *occasional* >lurker: I have to admit that most days I don't take the time to read my >summary) is an analysis of why those models aren't working today. I >mean, excuse me, if the era of Peronist redistribution (and managed >decline) is our model, I'll stick to dreams of cruising Route 66 in a >large Detroit convertible: the period is right, and that road doesn't >exist any more either. The prospects for generalizing the >Japan/Korea/Taiwan strategy are not quite so remote, but still it's not >an active thread. What exactly is "managed decline" and who does the managing? US imperialism managed the decline of Argentina's economy (and Allende's Chile, etc.). >The tendency on the list seems to be to blame the IMF/WTO/USA for >forcing markets open and requiring one-size-fits-all neo-liberal >policies. Which is true as far as it goes, but why has national >resistance crumbled almost everywhere? Let me suggest (and here I may be >on well trod ground: it is hard to come into the middle of this >discussion) that changes in the organization of production (roughly >speaking, flexible network production as opposed to vertically >integrated mass production) worsen the bargaining position of those in >the lower 70% of the income distribution vis a vis capital. For This is a novel way of saying, "There is no alternative." >instance, it used to be that multi-national manufacturing companies had >more to gain than to lose by cooperating with import substitution >policies: the mass production model was amenable to establishing dwarf >clones of the parent firm (whether by direct operation, partnership, >selling turnkey factories, or licensing technology, depending on the >national model in question) in protected markets, and the protected >markets were ... protected. So a national government could make a deal >with capital that sheltered the country from world markets. Actually, the main problem is the collapse of the USSR. With the COMECON, socialist and left-leaning countries had options. Not only could they trade with each other, they could wrest concessions from western countries trying to divide and conquer. Nixon was always looking for opportunities in Eastern Europe and was even friendly with Ceaucescu. With the end of the Soviet Union, countries like South Africa have fewer options. Of course, the turncoat mentality of people like Thabo Mbeki hastens that tendency. >But this comes back to models (socialist or otherwise): if that deal >isn't working, what comes next? If I want a return to the 1950s, I can >watch movies. The only period we seem to be returning to is the 1890s. You can keep it. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: models
Actually, discussion of models of socialism _is_ popular here--it;s just that Michael P can't stand the discussion, and stomps on it when it emerges. Sorry, Michael, you do! --jks >From: Fred Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Progressive Economics <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [PEN-L:10402] models >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:49:05 +0100 > >I'm an occasional lurker on this list. I can see that the discussion of >models of socialism is not terribly popular, not surprisingly, since it >is contentious and speculative. To say nothing of raising the very tough > >problem of the lacunae in Engels' blithe reference to "the >administration of things", such as substantial problems of both >information and accountability. > _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Um, if capitalism is a zero sum game, how come incomes are a million times higher than they used to be, and how come people live longer, can read, etc. etc.? Doug
Re: The case for reparations
Michael Perelman wrote: > > Come on, Louis. You can do better than this. Everyone must recognize > that the administration of reparations will raise difficulties. I suspect > that the best solution would be to give money to the community rather than > to individuals, but even then I am not sure how it would be administered. > while i would not call the poster that louis proyect was responding to "racist", especially in light of the very legitimate points he raised (that i wish we could also discuss, other than the issue of racism), i do see paternalism in not treating a group as autonomous but instead suggesting that they require the oversight of an external group. in other words, we can discuss the validity of reparation claims and the issues of how qualification is determined, but its the same old "we know whats best for you" type of milder racism to control the use of the reparations. by administration if you mean administration of the distribution, i agree it raises difficulties (that i believe can be overcome i.e., i think it is disingenuous to suggest that any remuneration be denied on the grounds that determining qualification is a difficult problem). --ravi
Re: BLS Daily Report
> > BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2001: >> The Federal Reserve reports a rebound in manufacturing, especially in autos, boosted total production of the nation's industrial sector to a 0.4 percent seasonally adjusted rise in March. But the burst of factory output could not make up for a very bleak January and February. As a result, the industrial sector -- including manufacturing, mining, and utilities -- registered a 4.7 percent annualized rate of decline for the first quarter. It was the largest quarterly drop since the first quarter of 1991, when the economy was in the last phase of the 1990-91 recession (Daily Labor Report, page D-22).<< nonetheless, the Fed cut rates in a seemingly panicked way. Is it possible that they're freaking out about international events? or rising saving by consumers? or what? -- Jim Devine - This message was sent using Panda Mail. Check your regular email account away from home free! http://bstar.net/panda/
Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Michael Perelman writes: >> I suspect that captalism is a zero sum game. If the capitalists had to make restitution to everybody from whom they profited -- Black slaves, native Americans, victims of imperialism, etc., they would have a bill many times greater than their wealth.<< Saith Ian: > So what's m-c-m' then, an illusion? 2nd law of thermodynamics aside, of course. < I'm not sure M - C - M' is a strike against the zero-sum game interpretation of capital. After all, as Marx wrote, the exploitation of workers (M' > M) comes from unpaid labor, which has got to cost the workers something. So M -C - M' might be interpreted as a redistribution, not the creation of something new. -- Jim Devine - This message was sent using Panda Mail. Check your regular email account away from home free! http://bstar.net/panda/
models
I'm an occasional lurker on this list. I can see that the discussion of models of socialism is not terribly popular, not surprisingly, since it is contentious and speculative. To say nothing of raising the very tough problem of the lacunae in Engels' blithe reference to "the administration of things", such as substantial problems of both information and accountability. Discussion of national development models seems to be more popular. I know it's asking for trouble to characterize the views of a list, but I'll say there is a general bias in favor of state led capitalist development, whether inward (Argentina, India) or outward (Korea, Taiwan) looking. Protection and state leadership are seen as facilitating more equitable distribution within the country in question. Plus other virtues, given the right conditions. What I have missed (and this may be because I am a very *occasional* lurker: I have to admit that most days I don't take the time to read my summary) is an analysis of why those models aren't working today. I mean, excuse me, if the era of Peronist redistribution (and managed decline) is our model, I'll stick to dreams of cruising Route 66 in a large Detroit convertible: the period is right, and that road doesn't exist any more either. The prospects for generalizing the Japan/Korea/Taiwan strategy are not quite so remote, but still it's not an active thread. The tendency on the list seems to be to blame the IMF/WTO/USA for forcing markets open and requiring one-size-fits-all neo-liberal policies. Which is true as far as it goes, but why has national resistance crumbled almost everywhere? Let me suggest (and here I may be on well trod ground: it is hard to come into the middle of this discussion) that changes in the organization of production (roughly speaking, flexible network production as opposed to vertically integrated mass production) worsen the bargaining position of those in the lower 70% of the income distribution vis a vis capital. For instance, it used to be that multi-national manufacturing companies had more to gain than to lose by cooperating with import substitution policies: the mass production model was amenable to establishing dwarf clones of the parent firm (whether by direct operation, partnership, selling turnkey factories, or licensing technology, depending on the national model in question) in protected markets, and the protected markets were ... protected. So a national government could make a deal with capital that sheltered the country from world markets. ISI doesn't fit with today's production methods (an elaborate international division of labor, technological, supply and marketing partnerships between firms, and so on), however, and as far as capital is concerned that deal is off. If I may anticipate one obvious response, the new production model is about more than simply outsourcing for cheap labor (though that's part of it); if that were the only change, the national option would still be on offer. But this comes back to models (socialist or otherwise): if that deal isn't working, what comes next? If I want a return to the 1950s, I can watch movies. -- Fred Guy Department of Management School of Management and Organizational Psychology Birkbeck College Malet St. London WC1E 7HX _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
It's a Jungle In Here
I have resubbed to this list, but with great trepidation because it seems to have become a rough place. When I read Perelman, for instance, I notice my subsequent credit card statement includes a charge of $79.95. When I finish reading Devine and look up, it's 7:45 pm and the cleaning people are roaming around the office. Plus you have to be careful about whose name you take in vain, such as the Marxist- formerly-known-as who is now represented by the glyphic 8-|> I'm a sensitive person easily wounded by harsh language. So although I have resubbed, I have put everyone except Nathan Newman and Carrol Cox into killfile so I won't actually get any messages. The other advantage of this is that if Mike un-subs me I won't miss any posts except for Cox, whom I read to improve my grammar and vocabulary. Newman I don't read anyway since I get that stuff in Larry Summers' speeches. So it's a pleasure to be back with all you bastards, and please try to be nice. If you aren't I may stay. mbs
Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Bill, I thought that Ian was just being humerous. Yes, the M' exceeds M, but these equations just give a capitalist vision of reality. Say that I buy a slave for $1 and make a good that I sell for $5. But if I had to go back an repay the slave for the unpaid labor, I might have to pay $10. On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:32:11AM -0500, William S. Lear wrote: > On Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 21:45:12 (-0700) Michael Perelman writes: > >I suspect that captalism is a zero sum game. ... > > Hmm, I don't agree. As Ian points out, M-C-M' is still the name of > the game. It's who grabs the lion's share of M' that is the problem. > > I might say that it closely resembles a zero sum game, but over time > we have seen a general rise in the wealth of the public here (US), as > capitalism has spread and deepened, though of course it has not spread > nearly far enough. This is also not to say that others have benefitted > equally by any stretch --- many Nicaraguans might raise a reasonable > complaint, to name but one such group. > > At the same time that technology (comprising of course, human > cooperation and knowledge) advances (channeled often within narrow and > harmful bounds), the legal and economic structures which capture the > benefits of this change as well (usually by radically violating free > market principles, incidentally) adapting to new profit conditions and > ensuring the continuing disparity of wealth and power. > > > Bill > -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
BLS Daily Report
> BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2001: > > RELEASED TODAY: Median weekly earnings of the nation's 99.1 million > full-time wage and salary workers were $592 in the first quarter of 2001, > the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This was 3.0 percent > higher than a year earlier, compared with a gain of 3.4 percent in the > Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) over the same period. > > Consumer prices rose a seasonally adjusted 0.1 percent in March as > increases in medical costs and home prices overwhelmed a sharp drop in > energy prices for the month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. > Energy prices, which remain 6.0 percent higher than last year's levels, > fell 2.1 percent in March as fuel oil prices fell 4.0 percent and gasoline > prices slipped 3.8 percent (Daily Labor Report, page D-5). > > The inflation-adjusted weekly earnings of most U.S. workers on payrolls > outside of agriculture increased 0.7 percent on a seasonally adjusted > basis in March, BLS says. Between February and March, average hourly pay > rose 0.4 percent and average weekly hours climbed 0.3 percent, resulting > in a 0.7 percent jump in average weekly pay. BLS said because the CPI-W > was unchanged, the real weekly pay also rose 0.7 percent (Daily Labor > Report, page D-18). > > The Federal Reserve reports a rebound in manufacturing, especially in > autos, boosted total production of the nation's industrial sector to a 0.4 > percent seasonally adjusted rise in March. But the burst of factory output > could not make up for a very bleak January and February. As a result, the > industrial sector -- including manufacturing, mining, and utilities -- > registered a 4.7 percent annualized rate of decline for the first quarter. > It was the largest quarterly drop since the first quarter of 1991, when > the economy was in the last phase of the 1990-91 recession (Daily Labor > Report, page D-22). > > The U.S. auto industry began boosting production substantially last month, > signaling that the worst of the economic slowdown is over for a key part > of the nation's beleaguered manufacturing sector. The increase in > automobile and light-truck assemblies was large enough to cause overall > U.S. industrial production to rise 0.4 percent last month after five > consecutive monthly declines, the Federal Reserve reports. Many analysts > had expected yet another drop. Other reports out yesterday on housing > starts, weekly changes in retail sales and consumer price inflation also > provided generally positive economic signs. Housing starts fell slightly > last month, but remained at a relatively high level, the Commerce > Department reports. Meanwhile, retail sales last week were close to or > above retailers' expectations as "favorable weather lifted sales of > seasonal goods, and Easter sales were healthy" says an analyst at Stone & > McCarthy, a financial markets research firm. Inflation remained tame in > March. The Labor Department reported that consumer prices rose only 0.1 > percent last month after much larger increases in January and February. > The "core" portion of the consumer price index, which excludes food and > energy items, increased 0.2 percent (John M. Berry in The Washington Post, > page E1). > > Cheaper energy kept inflation tame in March, while manufacturing perked up > modestly, separate reports showed today. A series of government and > industry reports indicated some stability was returning to a few economic > sectors after a volatile first quarter in which natural gas prices soared > and many manufacturing industries continued to struggle. Prices, as > measured by the CPI, edged up 0.1 percent last month after an increase of > 0.3 percent in February as energy prices declined 2.1 percent, the Labor > Department said. A sharp increase in car assemblies pushed industrial > production up 0.4 percent in March -- its first increase in 6 months -- > after a 0.4 percent decline in February, the Federal Reserve said (Reuters > in The New York Times, page C13). > > Industrial output rose unexpectedly in March, raising some hopes that the > long suffering manufacturing sector has hit bottom and may be ready to > rebound. But despite the 0.4 percent gain, underlying numbers in the > Federal Reserve report aren't so clear cut. March's increase, the first > since September, was led by autos, which had sunk to severely depressed > levels, and by technology. But technology's gain may not last long, given > the grim recent forecasts from the likes of Cisco Systems, Inc. The > industrial sector began sliding early last fall, before the rest of the > economy. Separately, the Labor Department said consumer prices rose 0.1 > percent in March from February, their slowest pace in 7 months, thanks to > a 2.1 percent drop in energy costs. Still, core inflation is running at a > 3.5 percent annual rate in the first quarter, compared with 2.6 percent > for all of 2000 (The Wall Street
Re: Re: The case for reparations
On Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 21:45:12 (-0700) Michael Perelman writes: >I suspect that captalism is a zero sum game. ... Hmm, I don't agree. As Ian points out, M-C-M' is still the name of the game. It's who grabs the lion's share of M' that is the problem. I might say that it closely resembles a zero sum game, but over time we have seen a general rise in the wealth of the public here (US), as capitalism has spread and deepened, though of course it has not spread nearly far enough. This is also not to say that others have benefitted equally by any stretch --- many Nicaraguans might raise a reasonable complaint, to name but one such group. At the same time that technology (comprising of course, human cooperation and knowledge) advances (channeled often within narrow and harmful bounds), the legal and economic structures which capture the benefits of this change as well (usually by radically violating free market principles, incidentally) adapting to new profit conditions and ensuring the continuing disparity of wealth and power. Bill
