I would happily plead guilty to Stalinism if I weren't sure that Stalin was more of a Trotskyist than and Leninist...but Elaine is right that the debate in THESE terms is moot until the next revolutionary upheaval. In fact it obscures the truth which my story of the strike was meant to tell --the working class, upon which constituency I believe any genuine political indepenendent movement must arise, will in th main reject left sectarianism whatever its name. Its one of the interesting points of unity between skilled, unskilled, African-American, Mexican - American, Asian - American, women and men workers. Sectarianism is not radicalism. I have seen many shops adopt radical tactics, measures and positions, when convincing arguments are presented tht they promise a better result for the sacrifice of struggle. I cannot agree with Elaine, however, that a "culture of debate" is precisely what the labor movement needs to advance political independence. I think there has been an abundance of debate but a shortage of programatic work, especially in the area of economics. Maybe Elaine views the purpose of the culture of debate as serving this end. If so, then, yes I too am for more of such "culture". But much of the debate I read and hearskirts the key challenges to organizing workers today, such as: **how to frame the economic demands of the unorganized workers in political terms--since under current labor law these workers have no right to organize into tradtional unions. **a new analysis and program of workers'control of workplace that confronts directly and CORRECTS the weaknesses of the Soviet workplace culture which in my view contributed greatly to eht collapse of socialism. The issues raised by the ongoing quality circle--team concept in the context of modern production are important, even though the bosses raise them mostly in an anti-union framework (how else would THEY ever raise them?). In my experience with the New Party its weaknesses stem from vagueness on program. Its clear in most campaigns what their against, but not what they're for. But the same can be said of most of us on the left. I was interested in the responses to my assertion that I knew of no party that did not arise out of (at least in large part) an internal struggle within an old party or parties. The Black Panther Party, to the extent it engaged in POLITICAL as opposed to strictly DEFENSE activety was INTIMATELY connected to the Democratic clubs and committees in the African American communities of Buffalo and Cleveland (the cities where I lived during the Panther's life). I have no knowledge of the Canadian formation mentioned (at least its origins), but will investigate. It occurredto me that the African National Congress was the most recent notable exception to my statement, which should at least be changed to state: "I know of now new political party that has arisen EXCEPT from a struggle within an older party--unless it arose upon a base previously wholly disenfranchised." In any event, no emergent party can ignore the divisions among Democratic voters or candidates if it seeeks to win any election. Any campaign run on ISSUES especially in local areas will find common cause with thousands of voters who will in other races vote Democratic (and should be able to do so). The TEST of independence will not be the presence or absence of opportunists somehwre in the ranks or leadership (this is inevitable in any mass movement) -- but in the credibility of the program to deal with the issues, and if elections are won, the abilty to mobilize the base to defend itself against the certain and ruthless counter-offensive of the corporations. Unfortunately thisis where liberalism falls apart. Only whether the working poepole are sufficiently organized and united to FORCE the issues can bring a positive conclusion. Whether or not the culture of debate is adequate to satisfy intellectuals will not affect the outcome at all once the battle is joined. Which brings up (for me) the next biggest question. It is undebatable to me that the actual battles for power require a high degree (ALMOST military degree) of discipline inorder for workers to effectively use the power that they have. Within workers organizations prior to a decision being taken, it has often (not always) beentrue in my experience that debate is fierce and plentiful. Were it not, then the decisions taken to engage in a difficult struggle would have little effect or meaning. If, during the struggle and before its successful conclusion, debate is opened up again, the effect, almost without exception, is to end the struggle. The boss wins. It doesn't make any difference what the merits of opposing sidesin the debate may be insofar as the instant strggle goes. This question is no new news to most local unions who have ever been involved in a strike. The PROBLEM is what happens AFTER the strike, struggle, seizing power, etc. The closure of debate--necessary during combat--can create bureaucratic structures that can perpetuate it into a period where debate is sorely needed. I think a new version of Lenin's book on the Kautsky needs to be written. It seems to me that rather than a "culture of debate"perse, theprincople concern needs to be building workers organizations based on a credible program, achievable program, and placing the maximum emphasis on them having rank and file democracy. If enough democratic structures are in place, the culture of debate and the discipline of combat can both find their necessary roles. J. Case