RE: Re: Difference between corporations and party responsibility

2002-04-16 Thread Devine, James

Sabri Oncu writes:
>On another note, what happens if there are more than one "democratically
centralized" parties, each claiming to be the vanguard of the working and
allied classes? Which one gets to lead the revolution?<

the one that's correctly following Lenin. It should be obvious, comrade!
JD




Re: Difference between corporations and party responsibility

2002-04-16 Thread Sabri Oncu

On another note, what happens if there are more than one
"democratically centralized" parties, each claiming to be the
vanguard of the working and allied classes? Which one gets to
lead the revolution?

Sabri

P.S: I lost the count of such vanguard parties in Turkey. There
are way too many.




Re: Difference between corporations and party responsibility

2002-04-16 Thread Sabri Oncu

Miyachi wrote:

> Thank you for your reply
>
> As for decentralized responsibility, party cell duty is
> regular report to central committee and maintain  party's
> program. If he has not ability to this duty, simply he must
> give up, or choose to change his duty. Here no command exists.
> Only member's will and passion is required. In a sense This
> type of organization is network-type like Al-Qaeda. On the
contrary,
> for example, in US financial corporations as you, You may
decision
> business yourself, but you must seek profit in decentralized
> responsibility. If you fail to raise profit, you fire. It is
the
> difference between party and corporation.

I am not sure if there is a serious difference between party and
corporation, except from the objectives. Both are organizations
with objectives.

If in a "democratically centralized" party, that is, in a party
where leadership is centralized whereas responsibility is
decentralized, what is required is only the member's will and
passion, and there is no command, why do we need leaders, or a
program? Will and passion would suffice, wouldn't they?

Also, how are we going to decide whose duty is what and whether a
person has the ability to perform his/her duty?

I think these are important questions to discuss.

Thanks Miyachi for your contributions,

Sabri

P.S: I am against commands of any kind, by the way. Just say
please, please.




Difference between corporations and party responsibility

2002-04-16 Thread miychi

On 2002.04.16 07:28 AM, "Ian Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sabri Oncu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "PEN-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 3:11 PM
> Subject: [PEN-L:24950] Re: Binary scheme of democracy and centralism
> 
> 
>> Miyachi wrote:
>> 
>>> From the viewpoint of Stalinism, the content of
>>> centralization of power is not considered as a pair
>>> of centralization of leadership and decentralization
>>> of responsibility, but only centralization of leadership
>>> has been put forward.
>> 
>> Dear Miyachi,
>> 
>> I have served at a few of the most Stalinist institutions in the
>> world: US financial corporations. They talked about
>> centralization of leadership and decentralization of
>> responsibility incessantly. This is the way the US financial
>> corporations are organized and I doubt that non-financial
>> corporations are significantly different. Responsibility without
>> authority is one of the most painful experiences I have ever had,
>> where, in this context, with authority I mean ability to make
>> decisions.
>> 
>> What is the point of decentralized responsibility if those who
>> are responsible have no ability to make decisions?
>> 
>> Best,
>> Sabri
> =
> 
> To protect the leadership. It's called the musical chairs theory of
> unaccountability.
> 
> Ian
> 
Thank you for your reply
As for decentralized responsibility, party cell duty is regular report to
central committee and maintain  party's program. If he has not ability to
this duty, simply he must give up, or choose to change his duty. Here no
command exists. Only member's will and passion is required. In a sense This
type of organization is network-type like Al-Qaeda. On the contrary, for
example, in US financial corporations as you, You may decision business
yourself, but you must seek profit in decentralized responsibility. If you
fail to raise profit, you fire. It is the difference between party and
corporation. In reality you obey  corporations as unpaid worker but wage
form of payment hide this ruler-ruled relationship. Below is from "Capital"

The wage-form thus extinguishes every trace of the division of the
working-day into necessary labour and surplus-labour, into paid and unpaid
labour. All labour appears as paid labour. In the corvée, the labour of the
worker for himself, and his compulsory labour for his lord, differ in space
and time in the clearest possible way. In slave 1abour, even that part of
the working-day in which the slave is only replacing the value of his own
means of existence, in which, therefore, in fact, he works for himself
alone, appears as labour for his master. All the slave's labour appears as
unpaid labour. [8] In wage labour, on the contrary, even surplus-labour, or
unpaid labour, appears as paid. There the property-relation conceals the
labour of the slave for himself; here the money-relation conceals the
unrequited labour of the wage labourer.

Hence, we may understand the decisive importance of the transformation of
value and price of labour-power into the form of wages, or into the value
and price of labour itself. This phenomenal form, which makes the actual
relation invisible, and, indeed, shows the direct opposite of that relation,
forms the basis of all the juridical notions of both labourer and
capitalist, of all the mystifications of the capitalistic mode of
production, of all its illusions as to liberty, of all the apologetic shifts
of the vulgar economists.

If history took a long time to get at the bottom of the mystery of wages,
nothing, on the other hand, is more easy to understand than the necessity,
the raison d' etre, of this phenomenon.

The exchange between capital and labour at first presents itself to the mind
in the same guise as the buying and selling of all other commodities. The
buyer gives a certain sum of money, the seller an article of a nature
different from money. The jurist's consciousness recognizes in this, at
most, a material difference, expressed in the juridically equivalent
formula: "Do ut des, do ut facias, facio ut des, facio ut facias." [9]
 
Regards
MIYACHI TATSUO
Psychiatric Department
Komaki municipal hosipital
1-20.JOHBUHSHI
KOMAKI CITY
AICHI PREF.
486-0044
TEL:0568-76-4131
FAX 0568-76-4145
[EMAIL PROTECTED]