RE: Cuban cows
Cuban cows by Devine, James 21 May 2002 17:54 UTC from SLATE's summary of today's news from major US papers: An article in the [Wall Street JOURNAL] says that Fidel Castro is pushing his scientists to clone milking-cows, with the goal being to replicate a famously productive, and now deceased, Cuban bovine beast. Castro turned to that plan after his previous scheme to provide endless milk proved a touch unrealistic. The idea, according to the paper, was to provide families with miniature milk-cows that they could keep in their apartments. The pint-sized beasts would graze on grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. I'm sorry, but it sounds as if Fidel -- or one of his advisors -- has partaken of some grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. The intent is good, but Lysenko's ghost is hovering near-by. CB: How does the alleged cloning plan violate the dogma of no inheritance of acquired characteristics ? it doesn't at all. The problem is that the whole cloning field has had all sorts of hype, utopian or dystopian implications, etc., but is turning out to be much more mundane. It turns out that clones have all sorts of medical problems, while there are many deaths in the process that produces a living clone. The Cubans (like many others) seem to have gone for the hype, though it's likely they'll figure out the reality. Put another way, Lysenko himself wasn't a bad egg or a bad scientist. The problem was the hype, and even worse, the Stalinist imposition of an ism named after him as the True Orthodoxy. (Perhaps I was too poetic: the ghost of Lysenko refers to Lysenkoism, not to the man himself.) JD
Levins Lewontin on Lysenko, was Re: Cuban cows
Levins Lewontin on Lysenko, was Re: Cuban cows by Louis Proyect 21 May 2002 19:40 UTC Lou, you've referred off and on to Levins Lewontin, _The Dialectical Biologist_. They don't treat Lysenko at all like this. See Chapter 7, The Problem of Lysenkoism. There were many elements involved, and it was no matter of mere quackery. Carrol Yes, of course. There is another side to Lysenko. In fact Stephen Jay Gould treats him with considerable respect in one of his essays although I can't remember the technical details. ^^^ CB: As I understand it, Lysenko's theory ran afoul, somewhat, of the fundamental biological dogma against the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Theories of inheritance of acquired characteristics are sometimes termed LaMarckian. Cloning as a method of breeding an individual organism with particularly desirable characteristics is not LaMarckian, as long as the characteristics that one seeks to reproduce in the clones are inherited and were not acquired during the life time of the organism which is the stud.
Re: Cuban cows
- Original Message - From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:44 AM Subject: [PEN-L:26131] Cuban cows from SLATE's summary of today's news from major US papers: An article in the [Wall Street JOURNAL] says that Fidel Castro is pushing his scientists to clone milking-cows, with the goal being to replicate a famously productive, and now deceased, Cuban bovine beast. Castro turned to that plan after his previous scheme to provide endless milk proved a touch unrealistic. The idea, according to the paper, was to provide families with miniature milk-cows that they could keep in their apartments. The pint-sized beasts would graze on grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. I'm sorry, but it sounds as if Fidel -- or one of his advisors -- has partaken of some grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. The intent is good, but Lysenko's ghost is hovering near-by. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine Or the WSJ staff has been reading the National Enquirer while snorting their breakfast. Ian
Re: Cuban cows
I'm sorry, but it sounds as if Fidel -- or one of his advisors -- has partaken of some grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. The intent is good, but Lysenko's ghost is hovering near-by. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine Lysenko? What does he have to do with cloning? Leaving aside the merits of such an experiment, a far less smirking article appears in today's WSJ: Udderly Fantastic: Cuba Hopes To Clone Its Famous Milk Cow By PETER FRITSCH and JOSE DE CORDOBA Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL SAN JOSE DE LAS LAJAS, Cuba -- Fidel Castro denies his scientists are developing deadly biological agents for the so-called axis of evil, as U.S. officials have alleged. But as part of what Mr. Castro calls the battle of ideas with the capitalist world, he has scientists hard at work on a project that could, if it works, strike fear in the hearts of Wisconsin dairy farmers. Cuban communism's most sacred cow -- a phenomenal milk-producing bovine called Ubre Blanca, or White Udder -- could come back to be milked again -- and again and again, if a team of geneticists has its way. The Cubans are cloning. Extolled by Mr. Castro for years as a symbol of the 1959 Revolution's endowments, Ubre Blanca holds the world record for milk production. On a single day in 1982, Cuban scientists say, farmers drew 241 pounds of milk -- more than four times a typical cow's production -- from an udder so distended from its service to the Revolution that it had begun to drag on the ground. That torrent was recognized by the record keepers at Guinness, who have also bestowed their titles on Mr. Castro: world's longest-serving head of state (43 years and counting) and world's longest United Nations speech (four hours and 29 minutes). To Cubans for whom fresh milk is now a rare and expensive luxury, the late Ubre (pronounced OO-bray) Blanca evokes memories of the days before the so-called Special Period -- the spectacular economic collapse that followed the implosion of the Soviet Union, Cuba's main benefactor, beginning in 1989. It seems like Ubre Blanca took all of our milk to her grave, says retiree AgustÃn Rodriguez, who spends a third of his $8 monthly pension on black-market milk, which he says is often ochre-colored. To Mr. Rodriguez, Ubre Blanca brings back memories of the early 1980s, when the cow was a staple on the state news and in newspapers -- and Soviet subsidies still kept Cuba afloat. Daily Milk Until the early 1990s, Cuban children got a daily glass of milk at school through age 13. Today, they are cut off when they reach seven. At times, there is no milk at all and people make do with a soy substitute. Last year, a milk producer in the eastern province of Guantanamo was arrested and fined by the National Revolutionary Police for illegal transportation of milk in the form of a 12-pound block of cheese. Scientists performed surgery on Ubre Blanca to harvest her eggs, hoping to create a master strain of heifers by fertilizing them and implanting them in other cows. But in 1985, she was put to sleep at about the age of 13. (Nobody knows exactly when she was born.) Her death was commemorated by Communist Party newspaper Granma with a long-winded eulogy. Her lactations earned her a place in the pantheon of Cuba's revolutionary heroes -- not to mention an air-conditioned resting place. Taxidermists stuffed her and put her in a climate-controlled glass case at the entrance to the National Cattle Health Center 10 miles outside Havana, where she still stands at attention. Ubre Blanca was honored by her home town of Nueva Gerona, which erected a marble statue in her memory. She gave her all for the people, even broke a U.S. record, says Pastor Ponce, an agronomist at the center who knew the famous cow in her glory days when Mr. Castro would stroke her fondly on TV. (He confirms, a bit sheepishly, that Ubre Blanca's grandfather was actually a Canadian Holstein.) Before Ubre Blanca was packed with sawdust, however, scientists carved tissue samples from her that remain frozen and preserved in special fluids at the Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology in Havana. We hope Steven Spielberg was prophetic when he made dinosaurs come back to life in Jurassic Park, says Fidel Ovidio, the center's chief of animal biotechnology. One of his proudest moments occurred earlier this month when Cuba's cow-cloning project was included in a slide presentation to Jimmy Carter. Jose Morales, leader of Cuba's cow-cloning team, cautions that while Cuba is very, very close to producing its first cloned cow, the island's scientists don't yet have the know-how to begin replicating Ubre Blanca from tissue that has been in the freezer for 17 years. But we do not discard the possibility that we'll be able to do this someday, he says. This project is very important to Comandante Castro. After the Soviet Union disappeared, animal feed, fuel, fertilizer and spare parts went with it.
RE: Re: Cuban cows
I wrote: I'm sorry, but it sounds as if Fidel -- or one of his advisors -- has partaken of some grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. The intent is good, but Lysenko's ghost is hovering near-by. Louis writes: Lysenko? What does he have to do with cloning? Leaving aside the merits of such an experiment, a far less smirking article appears in today's WSJ: less smirking? with all the puns about sheepish and the like? Lysenko is relevant, as I've been informed by a friend who's an expert on Soviet agriculture, because Lysenko became popular since he proposed a quick technical solution to a serious political-economic problem. Cuban's problems are completely different than those of the Stalin-era USSR, but there are similarities. Should any country's president really be micro-managing agricultural technology? Of course, Castro is being swept up in the world-wide cloning (and anti-cloning) fad. He's not alone. JD
Re: RE: Re: Cuban cows
Lysenko is relevant, as I've been informed by a friend who's an expert on Soviet agriculture, because Lysenko became popular since he proposed a quick technical solution to a serious political-economic problem. Cuban's problems are completely different than those of the Stalin-era USSR, but there are similarities. Should any country's president really be micro-managing agricultural technology? Of course, Castro is being swept up in the world-wide cloning (and anti-cloning) fad. He's not alone. JD I don't know whether Lysenko's reputation revolved around quick, technical solutions. I was under the impression that he was infamous for quackery under pressure from Stalin. For example, he claimed that wheat plants raised in the appropriate environment produce seeds of rye, which is equivalent to saying that dogs living in the wild give birth to foxes. As far as Castro micro-managing, I am under the impression from the WSJ article that he is doing any such thing. Mostly he seems to be motivating the project as we used to say in the SWP rather than squinting through microscopes. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Re: Cuban cows
When I visited Cuba along with Jim Devine, one of the greatest sources of pride that I recall was the milk program. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Re: Cuban cows
I missed that part, probably since I was wandering about looking for a way to get my glasses fixed. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine When I visited Cuba along with Jim Devine, one of the greatest sources of pride that I recall was the milk program. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RE: Re: Re: Cuban cows
- Original Message - From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: [PEN-L:26138] RE: Re: Re: Cuban cows I missed that part, probably since I was wandering about looking for a way to get my glasses fixed. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine === Were the cattle larger or smaller without them? Ian
Levins Lewontin on Lysenko, was Re: Cuban cows
Louis Proyect wrote: I don't know whether Lysenko's reputation revolved around quick, technical solutions. I was under the impression that he was infamous for quackery under pressure from Stalin. Lou, you've referred off and on to Levins Lewontin, _The Dialectical Biologist_. They don't treat Lysenko at all like this. See Chapter 7, The Problem of Lysenkoism. There were many elements involved, and it was no matter of mere quackery. Carrol
Re: Levins Lewontin on Lysenko, was Re: Cuban cows
Lou, you've referred off and on to Levins Lewontin, _The Dialectical Biologist_. They don't treat Lysenko at all like this. See Chapter 7, The Problem of Lysenkoism. There were many elements involved, and it was no matter of mere quackery. Carrol Yes, of course. There is another side to Lysenko. In fact Stephen Jay Gould treats him with considerable respect in one of his essays although I can't remember the technical details. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Cuban cows
Fidel Castro is pushing his scientists to clone milking-cows, with the goal being to replicate a famously productive, and now deceased, Cuban bovine beast. . . . The idea, according to the paper, was to provide families with miniature milk-cows that they could keep in their apartments. The pint-sized beasts would graze on grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. I'm sorry, but it sounds as if Fidel -- or one of his advisors -- has partaken of some grass grown in drawers under fluorescent lights. The intent is good, but Lysenko's ghost is hovering near-by. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine Well, Fidel may have been smoking some of the other stuff that grows on his lovely isle, and no one would accuse him of excesses of liberal democracy, but I doubt that whatever his program involves, it involves denouncing the cow-skeptics as enemies of the people and sending them and their families to die in the Cuban gulag, as Lysenkoism did, at terrible cost to Soviet agriculture and science--maybe that is what Carrol has in mind by saying that that involved more tha mere quackery. The best studies of Lysenkosim in English are by my neughbor David Joravsky, NWU emeritus (and One Of Us), and Zhores Medvedev (in translation). There's some excellent stuff in German, but not in translation as far as I know. jks _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
RE: Re: Levins Lewontin on Lysenko, was Re: Cuban cows
LP: Yes, of course. There is another side to Lysenko. In fact Stephen Jay Gould treats him with considerable respect in one of his essays although I can't remember the technical details. if early-onset Alzheimer's hasn't kicked in yet, the problem was not Lysenko himself, who was simply updating Lamarck in a period when the alternative Darwin-Mendel theory hadn't completely taken hold, even in the U.S. The problem was that Lysenko's theory became The Party Line, a line which had state power behind it. Those who doubted, suffered. JD
Re: RE: Re: Levins Lewontin on Lysenko, was Re: Cuban cows
if early-onset Alzheimer's hasn't kicked in yet, the problem was not Lysenko himself, who was simply updating Lamarck in a period when the alternative Darwin-Mendel theory hadn't completely taken hold, even in the U.S. The problem was that Lysenko's theory became The Party Line, a line which had state power behind it. Those who doubted, suffered. JD This is a link for the chapter on Lysenkoism in Helen Sheehan's Marxism and the Philosophy of Science, a truly great book. http://www.comms.dcu.ie/sheehanh/lysenko.htm Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Re: Cuban cows
Cuba is at the forefront of pharmaceutical research, from what I can gather, especially considering that it is a small, poor country. I assume that they are also working with genetic engineering and cloning as well. I would appreciate learning more about this. Cuba has been especially successful in creating medicines for tropical diseases. There was also some buzz about working on an AIDs cure or vaccine. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
