Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
I agree with Rob. I don't know why agriculture is anti-human unless you think we were all hunters and gatherers by nature. If you mean that toilets are human artifacts and so scrubbing them is human then we deserve some explanation as to why that would make the labor superior. And what about cleaning out latrines or manning "honey wagons" to clean out earlier "toilets". If I apply Mill's doctrine about superiority of pleasures I count myself equally capable of experiencing the relative "pleasure" of scrubbing toilets and growing a garden and would testify to the greater pleasure or at least lesser pain associated with the latter. Cheers, Ken Hardy aka Tom... - Original Message - From: Rob Schaap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 9:01 PM Subject: [PEN-L:14220] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch) > > And it is around industry, play, and moving about, not > > being stuck like a slug on one plot of land, that human life ought to > > be organized. Agriculture by its nature is anti-human, and hence in a > > decent society would be radically sub-divided and spread out over the > > entire population, like KP in the military. Scrubbing toilets is far > > more human labor than tilling the soil. > > Think you're overdoing it a bit here, Carrol. What's so nobly transcendental > about toilets, anyway? > >
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
But you couldn't read all those marvelous fantasies Louis posts on Pen-L. CHeers, Ken Hanly - Original Message - > > You seem to be missing the whole point of what Michael Perelman called > "self-provisioning" in precapitalist agrarian societies. Yes, the work was > backbreaking but it was not done 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, 51 weeks a > year. Read Juliet Schor's "The Overworked American" for a description of > how leisurely such societies were in many ways. It is the same thing with > hunting and gathering societies. Going out and spearing fish is tough work, > but once you have your catch, you can eat, drink, fuck and tell stories > around the campfire. > > Louis Proyect > Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org >
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
> And it is around industry, play, and moving about, not > being stuck like a slug on one plot of land, that human life ought to > be organized. Agriculture by its nature is anti-human, and hence in a > decent society would be radically sub-divided and spread out over the > entire population, like KP in the military. Scrubbing toilets is far > more human labor than tilling the soil. Think you're overdoing it a bit here, Carrol. What's so nobly transcendental about toilets, anyway? And a spot of soil-tilling need hardly nail one to the spot around the clock! People with large veggie gardens, for instance, tend to overwork their veggie gardens in my view (they'd get no fewer veggies out of 'em if they spent half their free time doing other stuff, but they prefer it to affirming their humanity over a smeared toilet bowl, I s'pose), and a lot of work farmers do is because of private property considerations (competition-imposed stuff, branding, fencing, doing the books, etc) - otherwise, they'd be busy at times and free at times. Dare I say it, as nature intended. And I happen to think agriculture is a damned good idea. We have billions to feed, after all. This maybe so precisely because we invented agriculture in the first place, but here we billions are. Cheers, Rob.
Re: Re: RE: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
Who is calling for a dieoff? People are warning about the future, not applauding it. On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:44:13AM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote: > > Dieoff indeed. At least Jay Hanson, like Dave Foreman, is honest > about what he sees for the future of the human population. Tell us, > Mark - how many people will have to disappear, how, and by when? > > Doug > -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
>Incidentally, on the romanticization of agriculture. Biologically modern >humans go back 100,000 years; agriculture 12,000 or so -- it's a late >perversion, like writing. Industry, on the other hand, goes back several >million years. And it is around industry, play, and moving about, not >being stuck like a slug on one plot of land, that human life ought to be >organized. Agriculture by its nature is anti-human, and hence in a >decent society would be radically sub-divided and spread out over the >entire population, like KP in the military. Scrubbing toilets is far >more human labor than tilling the soil. > >Carrol You seem to be missing the whole point of what Michael Perelman called "self-provisioning" in precapitalist agrarian societies. Yes, the work was backbreaking but it was not done 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, 51 weeks a year. Read Juliet Schor's "The Overworked American" for a description of how leisurely such societies were in many ways. It is the same thing with hunting and gathering societies. Going out and spearing fish is tough work, but once you have your catch, you can eat, drink, fuck and tell stories around the campfire. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
Michael Perelman wrote: > > Farmers like workers to bend over. It makes it easy to spot who is > relaxing. If strawberries were grown in raised beds, like you see in some > greenhouses, little bending would be required. But mechanization would > be difficult. It's been about 55 years since I picked strawberries, but my memory of it is crawling along on one's hands & knees. I can't imagine bending to do it. Of course with the huge (and hence not very sweet) strawberries of today picking would go much faster I suppose. But all fruit picking is miserable work. Incidentally, on the romanticization of agriculture. Biologically modern humans go back 100,000 years; agriculture 12,000 or so -- it's a late perversion, like writing. Industry, on the other hand, goes back several million years. And it is around industry, play, and moving about, not being stuck like a slug on one plot of land, that human life ought to be organized. Agriculture by its nature is anti-human, and hence in a decent society would be radically sub-divided and spread out over the entire population, like KP in the military. Scrubbing toilets is far more human labor than tilling the soil. Carrol
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
Jim Devine wrote: >BTW, I find it interesting that Louis is emulating Brad's style of >meaningless response. Though patronizing offers of reading lists are an innovation, don't you think? Doug
Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
At 06:53 PM 06/26/2001 -0400, you wrote: > >Even from a long range perspective, eliminating the difference between > >city and country means industrializing (citifying) the country as well > >as 'ruralizing' the city. > > > >Carrol > >Wrong. this type of one-word dogmatic-seeming comment is a waste of band-width, exactly the kind of thing that pen-l should avoid. It doesn't in any way, shape, or form show why Carrol's view is "wrong" (if indeed it is). We have to have some kind of standards. BTW, I find it interesting that Louis is emulating Brad's style of meaningless response. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~JDevine
Re: Re: Re: Re: Cuban Genetic Engineering (was Jesse Lemisch)
>Wow. Genetic engineering of insulin using e coli goes against the basic >principles of soil chemistry. >No kidding. I didnt know that! > >Cheers, Ken Hanly No, it goes against the basic principles of ecology. Soil chemistry is necessary to understand ecological problems. Many soil chemists, on the other hand, have no trouble defending unscientific farming practices such as the "green revolution". Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/
