Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Re: Stop the name calling
I like Ellerman's work on worker self-management, where he is a considerable expert. --jks > who is he. Where did this appear? > Lisa & Ian Murray wrote: > > > >David Ellerman is tucked away working on firm governance issues in Eastern >Europe for the WB. He also worked closely with Stiglitz when he was there. > >The quote comes from "Intellectual Trespassing as a Way of Life" [p. >27--still in print and a great read BTW]. He's also the author of a few >other books, the most interesting of which is "Property and Contract in >Economics" > >Ian > > > > > _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
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>BDL>You think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive? >** > >I don't know; So in other words, you don't. ** Thank you God for collapsing the unpredictability of the future with your unsurpassable foreknowledge of 21st century political-economic history. I realize your programming me for undecidability/ignorance/free will was needed to alleviate your insecurity that anyone may have notions that they could experience the world in any way incommensurable with your divine epistemology. Ian
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> >>Every member of Clinton's cabinet, including Rubin, advised he veto >>>the welfare bill. Only Gore & Dick Morris urged him to sign it. >>> >>>Doug >> >>I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's the ultimate source? >> >> > >Brad DeLong Thanks... Brad DeLong
Re: RE: Re: Re: Stop the name calling
>BDL>You think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive? >** > >I don't know; So in other words, you don't.
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MP>> who is he. Where did this appear? Lisa & Ian Murray wrote: David Ellerman is tucked away working on firm governance issues in Eastern Europe for the WB. He also worked closely with Stiglitz when he was there. The quote comes from "Intellectual Trespassing as a Way of Life" [p. 27--still in print and a great read BTW]. He's also the author of a few other books, the most interesting of which is "Property and Contract in Economics" Ian
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Michael, Would be better than a lot. So might Russ Feingold. Barkley Rosser -Original Message- From: Michael Perelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:23 PM Subject: [PEN-L:4211] Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop the name calling >Wellstone? > >"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote: > >> Michael, >>I agree. But, who would have done better aside >> from Clinton himself? > >-- > >Michael Perelman >Economics Department >California State University >Chico, CA 95929 > >Tel. 530-898-5321 >E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >
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Wellstone? "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote: > Michael, >I agree. But, who would have done better aside > from Clinton himself? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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who is he. Where did this appear? Lisa & Ian Murray wrote: > BDL>You think that Nader's 3% showing is impressive? > ** > > I don't know; do you think Rosa Parks was impressive or was that too, a > one-shot prisoners dilemma type game? We won't go into, why, if N was so > ultimately empty a threat, your religious group and that other church worked > tirelessly to keep him out of the debates. > > "Any attempt to develop a critique of the basic structures and principles of > a society involves of necessity transgressing and trespassing against the > Happy Consciousness. There are not only glass ceilings but glass walls that > define the accepted corridors of thought. Young aggressive professors in > economics and other social sciences are usually equipped with uncanny radar > so they can roar down the corridor of orthodox thought without ever getting > close to breaking through the walls--all the while seeing themselves as > brash free thinkers exploring the vast unknown." [David Ellerman] > > Feudalism will never end, > > Ian -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Brad DeLong wrote: >I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's the ultimate source? The person I first heard it from got it from Dick Morris' book, I think, but someone told me last night that Peter Edelman has been saying the same thing. Doug
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>>Every member of Clinton's cabinet, including Rubin, advised he veto >>the welfare bill. Only Gore & Dick Morris urged him to sign it. >> >>Doug > >I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's the ultimate source? > > >Brad DeLong The New York Times, August 1, 1996, Thursday, Late Edition - Final THE WELFARE BILL: THE WHITE HOUSE; Clinton Recalls His Promise, Weighs History, and Decides By TODD S. PURDUM WASHINGTON, July 31 When President Clinton and a dozen of his top advisers sat down in the Cabinet Room to discuss the welfare bill this morning, everyone knew he faced the biggest domestic decision of his Presidency. Though they were prepared to close ranks behind him, the President's advisers knew this was their last chance to be heard on an issue on which there was no middle ground left. By turns they spoke and their leader listened. But as he often does, Mr. Clinton ended the two-and-a-half-hour meeting without tipping his hand. Instead, he repaired to the Oval Office with Vice President AL GORE, who aides said ENCOURAGED THE PRESIDENT TO SIGN THE BILL, and his chief of staff, Leon E. Panetta, who URGED A VETO. Hillary Rodham Clinton, a former board chairman of the Children's Defense Fund, which has bitterly opposed the bill, was at the Olympics in Atlanta, and her chief of staff, Maggie Williams, who usually represents her at such gatherings, did not even attend the final meeting. The debate arrayed advisers like Mr. Panetta, George Stephanopoulos and Harold M. Ickes, who favored branding the bill extreme, against Dick Morris, the President's political adviser, Mr. Reed and Rahm Emmanuel, a political aide who led the charge to sign it as a way of delivering on Mr. Clinton's 1992 promise to "end welfare as we know it." In the meeting, MR. GORE AND MR. PANETTA, AS DE FACTO LEADERS OF THE OPPOSING GROUPS, each refrained from comment, while others sitting around the big oblong table in the Cabinet Room spoke in turn. The group included Treasury Secretary Robert E. Rubin, Housing Secretary Henry G. Cisneros, Commerce Secretary Mickey Kantor, Labor Secretary Robert B. Reich and the head of the National Economic Council, Laura D'Andrea Tyson. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
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>Michael Perelman wrote: > >>The VP doesn't do that much, although people say that he was decisive >>welfare reform. > >Every member of Clinton's cabinet, including Rubin, advised he veto >the welfare bill. Only Gore & Dick Morris urged him to sign it. > >Doug I've heard this a bunch of times. But what's the ultimate source? Brad DeLong
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>I don't translate Gitlin to 'enemy.' It just means >I expect less high-level guidance from him. He's >welcome in my movement, just not in a leadership >capacity. > >mbs > > >I've thought Todd Gitlin was a dork for a long time. But "all enemies >on the right" does not a large movement make when you start with 3%... > >Brad Ah. A clarifying comment on the meaning of "dork"... :-)
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Au contraire. I think you have given up on making the world a better place. I have not. Speaking for myself, only, I don't think that you can do that to a great degree within the parameters you accept. If you had lived in slavery times, you would have written off the abolitionists as mad dreamers and extremists who would never affect anything because their radical politics excluded them from serious politics. You would have been wrong, too. My reading of our society is that there are social divisions that allow for, demand even, going beyond the limits that you think bind us, that the iron cage is a lot more fragile than you think. Self expression is the least of it: if I thought I could improve the world by sinking into the democrats, embracing the butchers, I would. I am not too good for that. There is vileness I would not commit, but getting out the vote for Democrat isn't where I would draw the line in principle. The thing is, Brad, I tried it, I really did--I spent most of the 80s doing grassroots DP work in the Rainbow Coalition and in the Ann Arbor DP, and what it taught me is that if you have a mass movement or a community orgainizatiuon with you, you don't need the DP, because if you a re strong enough it will try to claim credit for things it refusedto support, and if you don;t, you might as well not bother, because all the DP will do for you is offer you chances to prostitutes your political ideals for the reward of being in the aprty. Besides, Brad, you never addressed the point I made earlier, that people like me will never be admitted to the DP power circles anyway because of our past,unless we make a Great Renunciation and become real right wingers to show that we really have renounced the reasons that brought us into politics in the first place. From a purely selfish point of view, as well as from the point of view of effectiveness, there's nothing there for us, isn't that right? --jks >From: Brad DeLong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: [PEN-L:4190] Re: Re: Re: Stop the name calling >Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:53:57 -0800 > >>Brad, hang it up. The thing is, we don't accept your iron cage. We >>don't accept defeat. We won't go away. Maybe we're mad, whether >>happy or not, but you won't make nice but unhappy liberals out of us. > >So you agree that for you politics is a means of self-expression, >rather than an attempt to make the world a better place? > > >Brad DeLong > _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.
RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop the name calling
I don't translate Gitlin to 'enemy.' It just means I expect less high-level guidance from him. He's welcome in my movement, just not in a leadership capacity. mbs I've thought Todd Gitlin was a dork for a long time. But "all enemies on the right" does not a large movement make when you start with 3%... Brad
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>Since politics is about what people think, to >a great extent at least, the fact that the movement(s) >coalescing behind Nader have improved definition -- >as a collectivity -- means the left is progressing. The >low Nader vote is not a great help in this vein, but it >does not detract from the general forward movement. >The definition includes a helpful sorting out. For >instance, I used to think well of Todd Gitlin. Now I >think he's a dork. I've thought Todd Gitlin was a dork for a long time. But "all enemies on the right" does not a large movement make when you start with 3%... Brad
