Re: RE: energy entropy + capitalist crisis

2000-06-29 Thread Michael Perelman

Max.  There s no doctrine of infinite resources for any specific
resource, but since substitutes always exist there is an implict
doctrine.

Max Sawicky wrote:

> I don't think this is true of neo-classical econ, namely
> there is no doctrine of infinite resources that I recall
> from the course in resources that I took.

Nicholas Georgescu-Rogen was anti-marxist, but used quite a bit of
Marx.  His important contribution was to realize that production took
place in time through using stocks.  This allowed him to make strong
statements about resources.  He was probably the first economist to use
the concepts of entropy and hysteresis.

> I wonder if anyone is familiar with Nicholas Georgescu-Rogin (sp?).
> He was brought to my dept to give a seminar way back in '81 or
> so and seemed to have a similar take on all this, albeit at a
> very high level of mathematical abstraction.  He was of Romanian
> extraction, I think, and flipped everyone out by talking about
> constant, fixed, and variable capital.
>
> mbs

--

Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901




Re: RE: energy entropy + capitalist crisis

2000-06-29 Thread M A Jones

Max,
Undoubtedly baseball was the right choice.

It was Samuelson who said something about 'the planet doesn't need
resources; resources are infinite' (can't remember the exact quote, can't be
bothered to look it up. He was talking about oil + substitutability at the
time, the idiot). Morris Adelman, oil industry economist sans pareil,
wittered on about 'oil is essentially infinite, a renewable resource' etc
(can't be bothered, etc. I'm just listening to Bob Dylan: All the
authorities, they stand around and boast' etc. That seems a better idea even
than baseball. Next I'm gonna drink a bottle of non-renewable Gouts et
Couleurs (vin de pays d'Oc. Oc as you know is a country which named itself
after its favourite word, Oc, meaning Yes. This is the kind of place I want
to live. The girls are great there, of course.)

Georgescu-Roegen, Oc. I agree. This list should close down for a week while
everyone goes away and reads him,Oc?

Mark Jones
http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList
- Original Message -
From: "Max Sawicky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 3:57 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:20938] RE: energy entropy + capitalist crisis


> Several quick comments . . .
>
> MJ:
> . . . The argument that energy supply is 'infinite' derives from the
> neo-classical economics concept of substitutability. . . .
>
> I don't think this is true of neo-classical econ, namely
> there is no doctrine of infinite resources that I recall
> from the course in resources that I took.  (I was doing
> well in it, until the finals, which coincided with the
> baseball playoffs).  There are theorems about the optimal
> rate of exhaustion of (exhaustible) resources.  Certainly
> prices are held to inspire investment in substitutes, but
> there is no guarantee that such substitutes will be found
> or be feasible in the long run.  There are technical and
> natural limits in play.
>
> I suppose it is possible that in some professorial treatments,
> simple optimism not unlike the sort I reflected is offered as
> some kind of scientific certainty.
>
> I wonder if anyone is familiar with Nicholas Georgescu-Rogin (sp?).
> He was brought to my dept to give a seminar way back in '81 or
> so and seemed to have a similar take on all this, albeit at a
> very high level of mathematical abstraction.  He was of Romanian
> extraction, I think, and flipped everyone out by talking about
> constant, fixed, and variable capital.
>
> mbs
>
>




RE: energy entropy + capitalist crisis

2000-06-29 Thread Max Sawicky

Several quick comments . . .

MJ:
. . . The argument that energy supply is 'infinite' derives from the
neo-classical economics concept of substitutability. . . .

I don't think this is true of neo-classical econ, namely
there is no doctrine of infinite resources that I recall
from the course in resources that I took.  (I was doing
well in it, until the finals, which coincided with the
baseball playoffs).  There are theorems about the optimal
rate of exhaustion of (exhaustible) resources.  Certainly
prices are held to inspire investment in substitutes, but
there is no guarantee that such substitutes will be found
or be feasible in the long run.  There are technical and
natural limits in play.

I suppose it is possible that in some professorial treatments,
simple optimism not unlike the sort I reflected is offered as
some kind of scientific certainty.

I wonder if anyone is familiar with Nicholas Georgescu-Rogin (sp?).
He was brought to my dept to give a seminar way back in '81 or
so and seemed to have a similar take on all this, albeit at a
very high level of mathematical abstraction.  He was of Romanian
extraction, I think, and flipped everyone out by talking about
constant, fixed, and variable capital.

mbs




energy entropy + capitalist crisis

2000-06-29 Thread M A Jones

Entropy is of course a key concept in any meaningful discussion about
energy. The argument that energy supply is 'infinite' derives from the
neo-classical economics concept of substitutability. The argument does not
of course (for obvious epistemological reasons) take account of the bounded
nature of the planetary energy system or of the entropy involved in any use
of energy. Whether or not sunshine is infinite, the earth is a closed
entropic system. The solar fluxes it can capture (by photosynthesis or human
photovoltaic technology, or wind (a climatic product of solar energy) or
whatever other method) are therefore also limited. Thus it is intuitively
obvious that energy supplies available to planetbound humans are by nature
limited. There are industry suggestions of capturing helium from the gaseous
clouds around Jupiter, and using this as the raw material of the future
hydrogen economy. Such talk is suggestive of desperation more than anything
else. The problem with substitutability is that it involves the same kind of
leap of faith which Yoshie Furuhashi reminded us was the great French
mathematician Pascal's definition of Christianity. You cannot argue with
neoclassicals because their faith in markets is not susceptible to reason.
As is clear from discussions on this List, some who might define themselves
as Marxists also turn out when scratched to be made of different metal.

It is argued that invoking energy as the prime mover of capitalist
accumulation is actually a ricardian thing to do, or even Physiocratic.
Malcolm Caldwell's highly original book 'Wealth of Some Nations' attracted
this kind of criticism when first published in the early 70s. Caldwell
argued that capitalism was coterminous with the era of fossil fuel use: it
began when coal began to be used extensively in industry and transport, and
will end when oil runs out. Malcolm (he was a friend of mine) paid with his
life for his visionary ideas, the logic of which drove him to support the
kind of sustainable communist utopia which he imagined Pol Pot and the Khmer
Rouge were just then installing in Cambodia. Being himself a communist and a
man of action, he went to Cambodia and was assassinated there on Christmas
Day in (I think) 1975.

I was influenced by his ideas then and am now: but I did not support his
solidarity with the Khmer Rouge and urged him to abandon it (the last time
we met and talked about this was in a pub outside Heathrow Airport, from
where he was about to depart to Khampuchea; I never saw him again).  But
there is an awful warning about his fate, and I sympathise a little with the
motivations of those who joke about me as a 'Jim Jones apocalypticist'. But
they are wrong to identify me with a cause so abhorrent as Pol Pot's.
Actually my position is exactly the opposite to Malcolm Caldwell's: I am
saying that *if we want to avoid that kind of dreadful outcome, we need to
not sleepwalk into another and this time final energy crisis*. We need to
keep our utopian speculations alive, but place them in the context of a
different world from the one which socialists hoped for: a world with a
damaged ecosphere, and very little *usable* energy (orders of magnitude less
than now).

In such a world, capital, raw materials and energy will be relatively more
valuable factors of production than they are now, and labour will be worth
very much less. This is actually a recipe for a return to warlordism, for
slavery and for grinding poverty, terrible barbarity and generalised
brutality. But it need not be this way, and some societies, for example
modern Cuba, show how it can be different. It is Cuba, not Cambodia, which
must be our common future.

Energy is a commodity like any other, and its value (and ultimately price)
is determined by the socially-necessary abstract labour which it embodies.
But energy is also a commodity unlike any other, since it is an input (like
labour-power) into all other commodities, and since available energy is the
key determinant of the rate of *relative* surplus-value. The rise in social
productivity which is the technical, material correlative of the rate of
s-v, can be expressed as *the more efficient use of energy in the
transformation of objects into commodities*. And this applies to energy
itself, the appropriation of which has always been subject to
technical/material transformation and to increased efficiency and
productivity (in material/technical terms, this is the process of
'decarbonisation' according to which energy-bases and industrial systems
switch from more to less carbon intensive fuels: from coal, to oil, to gas,
to hydrogen; each time an atom of carbon is dropped, capitalism has renewed
itself on a new and radically more efficient energy base).

This process by itself goes some way to explain the paradox that although
energy is becoming relatively more scarce, its value and price continue to
fall and will do so until a qualitative change sets in. At this point the
world energy-system, w