One last pass at the Titanic
It is widely believed among Catholics in Northern Ireland that the number of the Titanic could in some way be read as "no pope" and the Titanic was sunk as divine retribrution for the lack of employment of Catholics in the shipyards. While subsequently Catholics were excluded from the shipyards, many worked on the Titanic as the employers viewed the firing of Catholic workers as demanded by Protestant workers as an interference with management prerogative. Terry McDonough
Re: the Titanic
Date sent: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:32:23 EST Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: the Titanic In a message dated 98-02-24 12:12:01 EST, you write: The character Rose as a metaphor for all the women who are told that the ultimate and pinnacle of achievement is to become an ornament of some rich scum and who seek self-actualization and independence in a system that commodifies everything and turns people into things/commodities and things into personifications and power structures into "the natural/eternal order of things." Jim Craven shit, you mean i shouldn't try and find a rich husband? maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Response: Well, with a divorce rate of 50% and climing, and the fact that the rich scum like that in the movie have expensive lawyers who write airtight and highly restrictive pre-nuptials, probably the odds are better in Vegas. ;-). Or, "a woman without a rich man is like a fish without a bicycle"? Jim Craven *---* * "In the development of productive * * James Craven forces there comes a stage when * * Dept of Economics productive forces and means of inter- * * Clark College course are brought into being which * * 1800 E. Mc Loughlin Blvd. under the existing relations only * * Vancouver, Wa. 98663 cause mischief, and are no longer * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] productive but 'destructive' forces. * * (360) 992-2283 (Office)...individuals must appropriate the * * (360) 992-2863 (Fax) existing totality of productive forces* * not only to achieve self-activity,but,* * also, merely to safeguard their very * * existence." (Karl Marx) * * MY EMPLOYER HAS NO ASSOCIATION WITH MY PRIVATE/PROTECTED OPINION *
Re: the Titanic
In a message dated 98-02-24 12:12:01 EST, you write: The character Rose as a metaphor for all the women who are told that the ultimate and pinnacle of achievement is to become an ornament of some rich scum and who seek self-actualization and independence in a system that commodifies everything and turns people into things/commodities and things into personifications and power structures into "the natural/eternal order of things." Jim Craven shit, you mean i shouldn't try and find a rich husband? maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: the Titanic
OK how about Faustus? To add to the Titanic Metaphor list: The character Rose as a metaphor for all the women who are told that the ultimate and pinnacle of achievement is to become an ornament of some rich scum and who seek self-actualization and independence in a system that commodifies everything and turns people into things/commodities and things into personifications and power structures into "the natural/eternal order of things." Jim Craven --- Forwarded Message Follows --- Date sent: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:18:00 -0500 Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "Fellows, Jeffrey" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: the Titanic Sisyphus. Jeff Fellows -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: the Titanic Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 5:47PM In a message dated 98-02-23 15:57:51 EST, you write: Can anyone think of a better metaphor than the Titanic one? Well, Jim, since you asked, how about Dante's Inferno. An eternity of crises. maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *---* * "In the development of productive * * James Craven forces there comes a stage when * * Dept of Economics productive forces and means of inter- * * Clark College course are brought into being which * * 1800 E. Mc Loughlin Blvd. under the existing relations only * * Vancouver, Wa. 98663 cause mischief, and are no longer * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] productive but 'destructive' forces. * * (360) 992-2283 (Office)...individuals must appropriate the * * (360) 992-2863 (Fax) existing totality of productive forces* * not only to achieve self-activity,but,* * also, merely to safeguard their very * * existence." (Karl Marx) * * MY EMPLOYER HAS NO ASSOCIATION WITH MY PRIVATE/PROTECTED OPINION *
Re: the Titanic
Sisyphus. Jeff Fellows -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: the Titanic Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 5:47PM In a message dated 98-02-23 15:57:51 EST, you write: Can anyone think of a better metaphor than the Titanic one? Well, Jim, since you asked, how about Dante's Inferno. An eternity of crises. maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
the Titanic
Over the weekend, I heard an album by the anarchist-singer U. Utah
Phillips, where he suggested that the (U.S.) Democratic Party, and by
implication liberalism in general, involves simply "rearranging the
deck-chairs on the Titanic." This, plus our current torrential rains,
brought my fevered brain back to thoughts of pen-l. This cliche' had also
shown up in the discussion of the comparison between capitalism and the
movie version of the Titanic.
Despite agreeing with much or all of the critique of the liberals and
Democrats, I think it's a bad metaphor that should be dropped (along with
"hey hey ho ho this {fill in the blank} has got to go").
Sure capitalism gets itself into serious, world-shaking, crises -- the
Depression of the 1930s, the environmental mess, the current global "race
to the bottom" to lower wages, conditions, social benefits, and
environmental standards. But it's not like the Titanic sinking. It's true
that those who steer capitalism's helm are a bit like the designers and
captains of the T, but the fact is that if capitalism is going to be
collapse, it will have to involve some pushing.
Capitalism is a system that, despite its rampant injustice and
destructiveness, shows amazing resilience. The Collapse of the early 1930s
led to a decade or more of stagnation and war, while it's quite possible
that ecocide will have similar effects. (Wojtek pondered the possibilities
of war awhile back, in late December.)
But absent strong, democratic, and deeply-rooted mass movements capable of
replacing capitalism with socialist, the demise of capitalism will lead to
either (a) an eventual recovery of capitalism; or (b) a Hobbesian war of
each against all, or what Marx and Engels termed "the common ruin of the
contending classes," Luxembourg's "barbarism"; or (c) some new class system.
Liberalism aims to reform capitalism to save it, but it's not just to avoid
socialism, but to avoid transition to (b) or (c), just as the late-Soviet
reformers tinkered with the planning system to avoid chaos or capitalism.
Can anyone think of a better metaphor than the Titanic one?
I haven't read the discussion of Boucher's article, but the above seems
relevant to it.
in pen-l solidarity,
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://clawww.lmu.edu/1997F/ECON/jdevine.html
"Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own way and let
people talk.) -- K. Marx, paraphrasing Dante A.
Re: the Titanic
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, James Devine wrote: Can anyone think of a better metaphor than the Titanic one? How about all those Spaceship Earth metaphors, i.e. a more eco-leaning Titanicity, where we're all supposed to be our own deck chairs? They're still kind of incomplete, because spaceships are basically manufactured satellites, is all, and it's hard to epitomize world history with a few microships and solar panels from Raytheon. Late multinational capitalism is just so unliterary. -- Dennis
Re: the Titanic
In a message dated 98-02-23 15:57:51 EST, you write: Can anyone think of a better metaphor than the Titanic one? Well, Jim, since you asked, how about Dante's Inferno. An eternity of crises. maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: the Titanic
Here's Phil Ochs' definition of liberalism, from back in the day: As for a short aphorism about the future of capitalism (rather than a metaphor), how about "Socialism or Barbarism." I think that's usually credited to Rosa Luxemburg. http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs Love Me, I'm a Liberal By Phil Ochs C I cried when they shot Medgar Evers Am Tears ran down my spine C I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy D G As though I'd lost a father of mine C But Malcolm X got what was coming F He got what he asked for this time C FC G C F C So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal I go to civil rights rallies And I put down the old D.A.R. I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy I hope every colored boy becomes a star But don't talk about revolution That's going a little bit too far So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal I cheered when Humphrey was chosen My faith in the system restored I'm glad the commies were thrown out of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board I love Puerto Ricans and Negros as long as they don't move next door So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal The people of old Mississippi Should all hang their heads in shame I can't understand how their minds work What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain? But if you ask me to bus my children I hope the cops take down your name So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal I read New republic and Nation I've learned to take every view You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden I feel like I'm almost a Jew But when it comes to times like korea There's no one more red, white and blue So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal I vote for the democtratic party They want the U.N. to be strong I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts He sure gets me singing those songs I'll send all the money you ask for But don't ask me to come on along So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal Once I was young and impulsive I wore every conceivable pin Even went to the socialist meetings Learned all the old union hymns But I've grown older and wiser And that's why I'm turning you in So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal Notes: Lerner Golden were both columnists with left-leaning tendencies. Harry Golden, a humorist, wrote some marvelous books and short stories. One I recall is his plan for integration in schools in the south (this was back when). Since the Southerners didn't mind blacks standing next to whites when making purchases in stores, he proposed that they take out all the chairs in the schools and let the students stand to learn. He called this "vertical integration". Les Crane had a talk show in the south. (Nothing virulent like the current ones!) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jello Biafra and Mojo Nixon did a cover of this song with some updated lyrics. Mojo Nixon sang this updated version solo on Comedy Central during their 1996 State of the Union show. Chords supplied by Guy Matz 6 Jul 97 trent -- _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Michael Pearlman email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] J.R. Masterman School [EMAIL PROTECTED] 17th and Spring Garden Sts.fax: (215) 299-3581 Philadelphia PA 19130phone: (215) 299-3583 (215) 299-3583/299-4661 Money for Schools, not Prisons!Hasta la victoria siempre! _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
the Titanic
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:06:54 -0800
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: James Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:the Titanic
Over the weekend, I heard an album by the anarchist-singer U. Utah
Phillips, where he suggested that the (U.S.) Democratic Party, and by
implication liberalism in general, involves simply "rearranging the
deck-chairs on the Titanic." This, plus our current torrential rains,
brought my fevered brain back to thoughts of pen-l. This cliche' had also
shown up in the discussion of the comparison between capitalism and the
movie version of the Titanic.
Despite agreeing with much or all of the critique of the liberals and
Democrats, I think it's a bad metaphor that should be dropped (along with
"hey hey ho ho this {fill in the blank} has got to go").
Sure capitalism gets itself into serious, world-shaking, crises -- the
Depression of the 1930s, the environmental mess, the current global "race
to the bottom" to lower wages, conditions, social benefits, and
environmental standards. But it's not like the Titanic sinking. It's true
that those who steer capitalism's helm are a bit like the designers and
captains of the T, but the fact is that if capitalism is going to be
collapse, it will have to involve some pushing.
Capitalism is a system that, despite its rampant injustice and
destructiveness, shows amazing resilience. The Collapse of the early 1930s
led to a decade or more of stagnation and war, while it's quite possible
that ecocide will have similar effects. (Wojtek pondered the possibilities
of war awhile back, in late December.)
But absent strong, democratic, and deeply-rooted mass movements capable of
replacing capitalism with socialist, the demise of capitalism will lead to
either (a) an eventual recovery of capitalism; or (b) a Hobbesian war of
each against all, or what Marx and Engels termed "the common ruin of the
contending classes," Luxembourg's "barbarism"; or (c) some new class system.
Liberalism aims to reform capitalism to save it, but it's not just to avoid
socialism, but to avoid transition to (b) or (c), just as the late-Soviet
reformers tinkered with the planning system to avoid chaos or capitalism.
Can anyone think of a better metaphor than the Titanic one?
I haven't read the discussion of Boucher's article, but the above seems
relevant to it.
in pen-l solidarity,
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://clawww.lmu.edu/1997F/ECON/jdevine.html
"Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own way and let
people talk.) -- K. Marx, paraphrasing Dante A.
Response: Actually the classroom exercise involved finding 'aspects'
of the Titanic episode as a metaphor for 'aspects' of capitalism.
Further, although liberalism or conservatism might be seen as also
involving something like trying to find the 'optimum' arrangement of
deck chairs on the Titanic, the specific reference was to so-called
"mainstream economics."
To extend the list, the White Star executive who kept pushing to
"establish new records" and wound up hiding in a lifeboat supposedly
for "women and children only" might be seen as a metaphor for those
capitalists whose core and derivative imperatives of profits for
power and power for profits cause massive misery for the many while
they attempt to escape the conditions generated by the inner logic of
capitalism to isolated and protected enclaves of privilege protected
by the State, private police and the illusion of privilege of the few
being the "natural order of things."
The character Jack, the poor and footlose Irishman, who won a ticket
on the Titanic, can be seen as a metaphor for all those who buy into
the system, look for corners of privileges, rationalize their
false consciousness and illusions and do ad hoc yet cumulative
Faustian bargains that add up to the ultimate Faustian bargain.
Yes the capitalist system has a plethora of tools, mystifications,
traps, enticing Faustian bargains etc that add to its historically
unprecedented resilience and ability to gloss over/manage
contradictions inherent in the inner and defining core of the
"system". And yes, it is not enough to sit by and let the "dialectic
unfold". Absolutely true.
It was only a classroom exercise that has produced considerable
thought by my students and myself. No suggestion was made that the
Titanic in its "totality" was a concentrated microcosm or metaphor
for the "totality" of capitalism. Some aspects fit, some don't.
Jim Craven
*---*
* "Filling holes by digging bigger and *
* James Craven bigger holes...cannot be continued*
* Dept of Economics
[Fwd: response: Titanic in the classroom query]
The group H-Net Gilded Age and Progressive Era List [EMAIL PROTECTED] has an ongoing discussion of the Titanic. Michael Pierce wrote: A "Titanic" buff since childhood, I have briefly included the disaster in appropriate US surveys as well in Progressive Era courses. We discuss the perception of "Women and children first," vs. the reality of class as an important determining factor. Students are quite surprised that all but 1 of the 29 1st and 2nd class children were saved while 53 out of 76 steerage class children died. We also discuss issues surrounding the fight for women's suffrage at this time by way of a poem of the day chiding women for their cries of "Votes for Women" turning to "Boats for Women" as the ship went down. Beyond the classroom: in my perpetually ongoing biography of Robert La Follette, I note that La Follette used the disaster to finally achieve passage of La Follette's Seamans Bill, which protected various rights of crew members as well as requiring a lifejacket and a place in a lifeboat for every person at sea. Nancy C. Unger Department of History Santa Clara University 500 El Camino Real Santa Clara, CA 95053 phone (408) 554-6889 fax (408) 554-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 916-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] A "Titanic" buff since childhood, I have briefly included the disaster in appropriate US surveys as well in Progressive Era courses. We discuss the perception of "Women and children first," vs. the reality of class as an important determining factor. Students are quite surprised that all but 1 of the 29 1st and 2nd class children were saved while 53 out of 76 steerage class children died. We also discuss issues surrounding the fight for women's suffrage at this time by way of a poem of the day chiding women for their cries of "Votes for Women" turning to "Boats for Women" as the ship went down. Beyond the classroom: in my perpetually ongoing biography of Robert La Follette, I note that La Follette used the disaster to finally achieve passage of La Follette's Seamans Bill, which protected various rights of crew members as well as requiring a lifejacket and a place in a lifeboat for every person at sea. Nancy C. Unger Department of History Santa Clara University 500 El Camino Real Santa Clara, CA 95053 phone (408) 554-6889 fax (408) 554-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
response: Titanic in the classroom query (fwd)
Forwarded message: From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Feb 17 20:09:15 1998 Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Approved-By: Michael Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: v02130500b10f95723177@[140.254.112.75] Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:34:02 -0400 Reply-To: H-Net Gilded Age and Progressive Era List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: H-Net Gilded Age and Progressive Era List [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Michael Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: response: Titanic in the classroom query To: Multiple recipients of list H-SHGAPE [EMAIL PROTECTED] I teach a journalism history survey course at the undergraduate level, and the Titanic takes up most of one lecture. It is important historically in mass media (and mentioned in all recent mass media history survey texts) as one of the factors in the passage of the Radio Act of 1912, which, among other things, required ships to have a radio operator on duty 24 hours per day and a separate power source for the radio equipment (other than the ship's engines). Less than 20 miles from the spot where the Titanic went down, the California manuevered through the same ice field. But its only wireless operator was asleep when the distress calls were sent; in addition, the captain had ordered the engines stopped because of the danger. Some historians feel the Radio Act of 1912, passed four months after the disaster, was the first attempt at regulating "broadcasting" in this country. Certainly one aspect of the legislation was that broadcasting became not a right, but a privilege assigned by the government. For those interested in more information, I wrote a journalistic account of the significance of the event in radio history for the Star Tribune, "One Legacy of the Titanic Echoes Across the Broadcast Spectrum," (1-5-98). If you don;t have access to a newspaper database, I would be happy to mail along a copy. Best, Mark Mark Neuzil Assistant Professor Department of Journalism and Mass Communication Environmental Studies Program Mail #4249 University of St. Thomas 2115 Summit Ave. St. Paul, MN 55105-1096 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612/962-5267 -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
response: Titanic in the classroom query (fwd)
I teach a journalism history survey course at the undergraduate level, and the Titanic takes up most of one lecture. It is important historically in mass media (and mentioned in all recent mass media history survey texts) as one of the factors in the passage of the Radio Act of 1912, which, among other things, required ships to have a radio operator on duty 24 hours per day and a separate power source for the radio equipment (other than the ship's engines). Less than 20 miles from the spot where the Titanic went down, the California manuevered through the same ice field. But its only wireless operator was asleep when the distress calls were sent; in addition, the captain had ordered the engines stopped because of the danger. Some historians feel the Radio Act of 1912, passed four months after the disaster, was the first attempt at regulating "broadcasting" in this country. Certainly one aspect of the legislation was that broadcasting became not a right, but a privilege assigned by the government. For those interested in more information, I wrote a journalistic account of the significance of the event in radio history for the Star Tribune, "One Legacy of the Titanic Echoes Across the Broadcast Spectrum," (1-5-98). If you don;t have access to a newspaper database, I would be happy to mail along a copy. Best, Mark Mark Neuzil Assistant Professor Department of Journalism and Mass Communication Environmental Studies Program Mail #4249 University of St. Thomas 2115 Summit Ave. St. Paul, MN 55105-1096 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 612/962-5267 -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Response: This is wonderful; I'll be sure to share it with my class. Now let's see... The sleeping wireless operator is a metaphor for all those workers who, exploited to produce/expropriate absolute and relative surplus value and not paid according to their real productivity and contribution/importance to the overall scheme of things, express their alienation and rebellion by sleeping on the job and other acts of rebellion against penny-wise-pound-foolish capitalists who, driven by the twin imperatives of profits for power and power for profits, and the derivative imperative of total cost minimization, never fail to scrimp on necessary expenditures while spending lavish amounts on themselves such as on huge houses and massage parlor sessions etc with the result that the inevitable losses far outweigh their penny-wise- pound-foolish cost cutting thus calling into question the true "efficiency" and costs and consequences of the system as a whole. Jim Craven *---* * "Let me be a free man, free to travel * * James Craven free to stop, free to work, free to * * Dept of Economics trade where I choose, free to choose * * Clark College my own teachers, free to follow the * * 1800 E. Mc Loughlin Blvd. religion of my fathers, free to talk, * * Vancouver, Wa. 98663 think and act for myself--and I will * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] obey every law or submit to the * * (360) 992-2283 (Office)penalty." * * (360) 992-2863 (Fax) (In-mut-too-yah-lat-lat "Chief Joseph"* * of the Nez Perce) A.I.M. Credo * * MY EMPLOYER HAS NO ASSOCIATION WITH MY PRIVATE/PROTECTED OPINION *
