Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Doyle Saylor]

Greetings Economists,
On Sep 4, 2006, at 2:02 PM, Doug Henwood wrote:


Maybe people feel like they're being spammed, rather than engaged in
conversation.


Doyle;
What is conversational content:

To answer my own question, it refers to the interactive content of
shared information.  In so far as say I write my opinions and only DH
and a few others read them here in Pen-L then the conversation is
really based upon the limits of face to face information processes.
The limit is roughly 20 people close to me, 150 people who know me,
1000 or so I can respond to individually then conversation via face to
face human ability to make information conversational via just face to
face ability ceases to work.

Google allows the process of sharing the information to be broadened
into a form that is accessible on a much larger basis.  In other words
the automation of search allows the conversation information which is
shared information exchange to grow in terms of the interactivity of
the content.

This means that the bottleneck to interactivity or what you mean by
conversation is being broken by a form of automation.  Therefore your
question is really of two fold content, one which overtly you seem to
be saying, you aren't having a conversation with Yoshie, she is
spamming you, secondly what is the automation of the connection process
of conversation.
Thanks,
Doyle

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Doug Henwood]

On Sep 4, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:


I posted an interesting NYT article on China's rising production costs
(stagflation, anyone?), a new study (the first of its kind?), by
economist Robert Kaestner, on the impact of anti-Arab/anti-Muslim
prejudice on the wages of Arab and Muslim men, etc., but they do not
appear to stir up any interest.


Maybe people feel like they're being spammed, rather than engaged in
conversation.

Doug

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[paul phillips]

Michael,
I think you might well reconsider this post.  We know, for instance,
that facilitating female education (which is opposed by  conservative
Islamic patriarchy) greatly reduces birth rates and is the only long
term solution to overpopulation and the assault on natural resources
(e.g. deforestation in Africa, Asia, South America.).  This is just one
example of the relationship between religion, gender and the economy.
In other words, in many situations particularly in developing countries,
one can not distinguish between economic and religious institutions.
This is just one example of  historical/institutional specificity the
absence of which Hodgson has pointed out has robbed economics of its
relevance and its accuracy in interpreting/forcasting/ policy formation
in the real world.

Paul P

Michael Perelman wrote:


I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and speculating 
about
religion and sexuality.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
michaelperelman.wordpress.com







--
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Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Leigh Meyers]

Michael Perelman wrote:

I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and speculating 
about
religion and sexuality.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
michaelperelman.wordpress.com



.
Typo duly noted...

Tangentially speaking of economics...

Yoshie quoted:
"The Prophet Muhammad introduced Islamic teachings in this patriarchal
Arabic society. Thus, it is possible that the patriarchal views of
Arabic society interfered with the tradition of Islamic interpretation,
including on homosexuality."


This can be taken tangentially to mean that the Arabs are usurpers of
the islamic traditions, most recently as wahhabism, which purports to be
some 'purer' form of islam, but is really a distorted (perverse?)
teaching, as puritanism might be when compared to older christian
traditions.

The economic impact is immeasurable if one considers that the arabs
control THE symbol of islam; makka, control and/or steer the more
radical militant tendencies of islam through political, military and
cultural support of jihad while suppressing opposition to the ruling
powers or clergy of Saudi Arabia.

AND they control the oil, which similarly perverse usurpers of christian
tradition is attempting to obtain, and in the process, teeing off every
muslim in the world.

All this (and more, much more), with a running total of $312 billion for
Iraq's oil alone.

http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

...was that economic enough? Did I mention it was tangential?

Leigh
http://leighm.net/

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Michael Perelman]

Not really.  I thought that we had gone overboard on that line.  Not forbidden 
at
all, but rather hoping to move on to new subjects for a while.

On Mon, Sep 04, 2006 at 08:25:28AM -0700, Jim Devine wrote:
> so we should keep the peace over dinner by avoiding topics of
> religion, sex, and politics?
>

--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
michaelperelman.wordpress.com

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Yoshie Furuhashi]

On 9/4/06, Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sep 4, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Michael Perelman wrote:

> I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and
> speculating about
> religion and sexuality.

I'm guessing "and" is a typo for "than," but like I keep saying -
even economists find economics boring!

Doug


I posted an interesting NYT article on China's rising production costs
(stagflation, anyone?), a new study (the first of its kind?), by
economist Robert Kaestner, on the impact of anti-Arab/anti-Muslim
prejudice on the wages of Arab and Muslim men, etc., but they do not
appear to stir up any interest.

And surely there is a change in political economy of Indonesia that
produces young theology students like Farid Muttaqin and lands
Muttaqin in Ohio (of all places!).
--
Yoshie

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Doyle Saylor]

Greetings Economists,
On Sep 4, 2006, at 8:10 AM, Michael Perelman wrote:


I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and
speculating about
religion and sexuality.


Doyle,
The same general argument can be made about 'Intellectual Property'.
The conflict between file sharing and present day big media is a
conflict between one to many business models of Intellectual Property,
and governed and regulated information exchange.  That's the strength
of the economic argument about Intellectual Property it is applicable
outside the usual economic applications and therefore offers deep
insights lacking in previous Socialist theory.

Grid computing offers interactive mass scale communications structures
which include emotional content.  In a materialist form.
thanks,
Doyle Saylor

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Jim Devine]

so we should keep the peace over dinner by avoiding topics of
religion, sex, and politics?

On 9/4/06, Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sep 4, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Michael Perelman wrote:

> I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and
> speculating about
> religion and sexuality.

I'm guessing "and" is a typo for "than," but like I keep saying -
even economists find economics boring!

Doug




--
Jim Devine / "But the wage of sin don't adjust for inflation. It's a
buyer's market when you sell your soul." -- Jeffery Foucault, "Ghost
Repeater."

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Michael Perelman]

Yes, early morning voice recognition mistake without careful proofreading.


On Mon, Sep 04, 2006 at 11:18:44AM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote:
> On Sep 4, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Michael Perelman wrote:
>
> > I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and
> > speculating about
> > religion and sexuality.
>
> I'm guessing "and" is a typo for "than," but like I keep saying -
> even economists find economics boring!
>
> Doug

--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
michaelperelman.wordpress.com

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Doug Henwood]

On Sep 4, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Michael Perelman wrote:


I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and
speculating about
religion and sexuality.


I'm guessing "and" is a typo for "than," but like I keep saying -
even economists find economics boring!

Doug

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Michael Perelman]

I think we might do well to think more about economic matters and speculating 
about
religion and sexuality.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
michaelperelman.wordpress.com

Re: [PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Doyle Saylor]

Greetings Economists,
On Sep 3, 2006, at 10:27 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi Quoting Farid Muttaqin 
wrote:



One of the most influential traditions in Islam is the patriarchal
view of ancient Arabic society. This society encouraged people to show
the power of masculinity. It was a common view within ancient Arabic
society that only a man could be a leader. Having a daughter
embarrassed parents. Fathers would even kill their daughters in order
to save the family from disgrace. Having several wives or concubines
was a measure of male power. Ancient Arabic society eradicated
feminine values in order to keep their masculine images.


Doyle;
The male in essence is married to many women, and therefore the 
relationship though face to face an example of one to many social 
attachments.  Which then in turn models the Christian practice of the 
man in the pulpit at the head of the congregation using one to many 
media to model religious relationships.  And echoed in Christian 
culture in the U.S. where Dad gives the law wife sucks the cock.  I use 
suck the cock as an example of emotion work that reason cannot 
adequately address because there is not adequate emotion theory to 
address emotional attachments of sex work.


The Marxist concept of the 'whole' working class is not worked out in 
terms of what equality of attachment means.  It is not just getting a 
house, getting a car as the developed world offers.  At some point the 
relative developed world hits a barrier of how far material attachment 
can lead.  For example peak oil indicates that energy distribution has 
a maximum potential for distribution to everyone.


If equality includes women then the emotion structure of a patriarchal 
model as Farid writes about above is the target for Socialist emotional 
attachments.


On Sep 3, 2006, at 10:27 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi Quoting Farid Muttaqin 
wrote:

Another Muslim man tried to protest. I
interrupted him. "We're changing history today," I said. "We're not
going to shut up."

What stunned me was not only the confidence with which we spoke but
the willingness of the group to back us — 12 Muslim women scholars and
activists and one Muslim man activist who had been invited to attend
the conference by a small but ambitious group of largely Spanish
Muslim converts, the moderate Catalan Islamic Board.

Doyle;
This emotional realization just references a theory of 'democratic' 
values she has come to.  That is that the right to talk in the presence 
of men and deny their 'prejudice' (prejudice is founded in asocial 
emotions like disgust and shame) is central to women's rights in Islam. 
 And further the claim comes from Muslim women in the developed world 
of Spain's Catalan.  The problem for them is the theory of Democracy 
and the theory of attachment founders for them because their religion 
based upon writing cannot model true large scale social connection.  
Whether Islam, Christianity, or Judaism, there is not adequate theory 
of interactive media that models large scale equal emotional 
attachments.  So that in a mass meeting a sense of equality is in the 
air, but a theory is not there for how all women on the national scale 
are liberated.


For example Democracy really references 'talk' and text based talk is a 
one to many process.  So a mass scale theory of interactive talk is 
necessarily Socialist not religious in that the fundamental emotional 
attachments are no longer male one to many patriarchal relationships 
across the whole society.


On Sep 3, 2006, at 10:27 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi Quoting Farid Muttaqin 
wrote:

It was an affirmation of the commitment that had brought me and the 11
other participants here from as far away as Malaysia, Mali, Nigeria,
France, Canada, the United Kingdom, the United States and refugee
camps in the disputed territory of Western Sahara to share stories
from the trenches in the "gender jihad." We Muslim feminists view it
as a struggle that taps Islamic theology, thinking and history to
reclaim rights granted to women by Islam at its birth but erased by
manmade rules and tribal traditions masquerading as divine law.

Doyle;
Echoing my point above, Farid had an emotional attachment to these 
twelve people, a commitment which she saw as in direct conflict with 
'manmade rules' (text based one to many media) and tribal traditions 
(family home practice) as God's Law.  God is outside material existence 
and therefore Socialist are at advantage immediately in addressing a 
theory of emotional attachment that is Socialist.


The deep question is how a whole society represents a Socialist 
emotional attachment.  That is the central core issue of Women's 
liberation as Farid gives us to understand above.  But rather than tie 
ourselves to one to many theories of the Book religions, we want to go 
to an interactive emotional attachment that Socialism can meet.


Socialism in other words can say something about Homosexual attachments 
within the context of working class equality if Soc

[PEN-L] Farid Muttaqin: "Changes Needed to Islamic View on Homosexuality"

[Yoshie Furuhashi]

Changes needed to Islamic view on homosexuality

Farid Muttaqin, Athens, Ohio

It is important to begin any discussion on homosexuality in Islam with
a look at how some hegemonic cultures and traditions before Islam
influenced Islamic teachings. Greek Hellenism and ancient Arabic
society were two important groups that supported a type of Islamic law
on homosexuality.

Same-sex relationships have deep roots in the history of humankind.
The story of Lot's people in the Koran proves that homosexuality has
been a part of human life for a long time. Some famous Greek
philosophers such as Aristotle and Plato also experienced same-sex
relationships. In ancient societies, homosexuality was considered
common behavior. Why do we now view homosexuality as social deviancy?
Why is it believed among Muslims that homosexuality is such a terrible
sin?

The characteristics of Islamic teaching and its interpretations are
possibly colored by the traditions of previous societies. In ancient
Greek society homosexuality was a usual sexual behavior. Meanwhile,
Islam strongly discourages its believers from mimicking traditions of
previous societies. This was significant for early Islamic believers
to clearly distinguish themselves from non-Muslims. The Islamic
restriction against homosexuality has a correlation to this teaching.

Additionally, the stigma against homosexuality refers to the academic
tradition of interpretation within Islamic society, including the
subject of homosexuality. Also, the stigma of homosexuality is related
to the political interests of the early formation of Islamic society.

One of the most influential traditions in Islam is the patriarchal
view of ancient Arabic society. This society encouraged people to show
the power of masculinity. It was a common view within ancient Arabic
society that only a man could be a leader. Having a daughter
embarrassed parents. Fathers would even kill their daughters in order
to save the family from disgrace. Having several wives or concubines
was a measure of male power. Ancient Arabic society eradicated
feminine values in order to keep their masculine images.

The Prophet Muhammad introduced Islamic teachings in this patriarchal
Arabic society. Thus, it is possible that the patriarchal views of
Arabic society interfered with the tradition of Islamic
interpretation, including on homosexuality. Ancient Arabic society
resisted homosexual behavior because homosexuality was considered a
feminine value. These stereotyped effeminate males were contrary to
tribal interests in conflicts which required masculine values such as
bravery, courage, strength, roughness and dominance. Homosexuality
could reduce these masculine values and lead to losing tribal wars.

It was also common among the first group of Islamic believers to face
socio-political and religious wars with non-Muslim societies. Jihad as
a spirit of religious defense was a well-known Islamic dogma to win
these wars. As with other dogmas of war, jihad at that time was
overwhelmed by "masculine values", and under the patriarchal
influences of Arabic society the first group of Muslims restricted
homosexuality as an irrelevant value of jihad (Wafer, 1997:92). In
addition to this fact, the verses of the Koran on homosexuality
describe more male homosexual experiences than female homosexual ones.
The patriarchal interests influencing Islamic teachings did not count
females as significant members of the society.

In times of peace that required "feminine values" such as beauty, love
and compassion, rather than "the spirit of masculine values", it is
not difficult to find homosexual experiences in Islamic societies.
Some great Islamic scholars experienced same-sex relationships. Abu
Nawas, the greatest Arab poet, was homosexual. It was common among
male Sufis to experience homosexuality in correlation with the belief
that sexual lust or nafs (desire) toward women would lead them to
spiritual decadence (Schimmel, 1979:124). These realities are crucial
evidence that in some contexts homosexuality has not been a major
problem within Islamic society.

Homosexual experiences have been alive among recent Islamic societies,
including Iran, Turkey, Morocco, Syria and Pakistan (Schmitt and
Sofer, 1992). Among Muslims in Indonesia, homosexual experiences are
common in pesantren, or Islamic boarding schools. However, patriarchal
views still dominate Islamic teaching and its interpretations,
including on homosexuality. Thus, Islamic societies tend to maintain
the construction of a pseudo socio-religious belief that homosexuality
is a major sin.

Progressive Islamic groups have to be aware that stereotypes against
homosexuals in the name of Islamic teachings encourage discrimination
and even violence. An example of this discrimination can be found in
the fact that some Muslim countries criminalize homosexuality.

Based on the fact that various stereotypes and