Re: [PEN-L] U.S. Left was Re: [PEN-L] Response to Stan Goff
Michael Perelman wrote: The phrase "moving left" made me wonder whether any Democrat today would dare to run on a platform advocating some of Richard Nixon's achievements: EPA, OSHA, and the like. that com-symp? no way! -- Jim Devine / "I wanna be with you in paradise / And it seems so unfair / I can't go to paradise no more / I killed a man back there." -- Bob Dylan.
Re: [PEN-L] U.S. Left was Re: [PEN-L] Response to Stan Goff
The phrase "moving left" made me wonder whether any Democrat today would dare to run on a platform advocating some of Richard Nixon's achievements: EPA, OSHA, and the like. On Wed, Oct 25, 2006 at 08:50:07AM -0700, Jim Devine wrote: > > if a lot of people are moving "to the left" these days, I'd guess that > a lot of these newbies would embrace words like "fascism" in ways that > I reject. Further, in the populist tone, many new leftists might start > with conspiracy theories before moving on to more sophisticated views. > > Back in the 1960s (which BTW, is slightly before my political time) > members of the Old Left often spurned the (old) New Left, applying > labels more than analysis to reject them. (This was not just the CP, > but also the SP.) We have to approach the newest left with a more > reasoned approach, one that might make the new entrants more likely to > listen to us, while listening to them as much as possible. > -- > Jim Devine / "I wanna be with you in paradise / And it seems so unfair > / I can't go to paradise no more / I killed a man back there." -- Bob > Dylan. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu michaelperelman.wordpress.com
Re: [PEN-L] U.S. Left was Re: [PEN-L] Response to Stan Goff
On 10/24/06, Doyle Saylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't agree with you that debates here about any issue like fascism is a waste of time. There are symptoms of mass movements in formation where the debates begin to grow and enlarge and escape the formal boundaries of the previous period. So any single debate is trivial, but the forces within a system start to make debates relate to events. The debate about fascism is really how the war is influencing people to consider what we are against when we know the war machine is an important pillar of power. if a lot of people are moving "to the left" these days, I'd guess that a lot of these newbies would embrace words like "fascism" in ways that I reject. Further, in the populist tone, many new leftists might start with conspiracy theories before moving on to more sophisticated views. Back in the 1960s (which BTW, is slightly before my political time) members of the Old Left often spurned the (old) New Left, applying labels more than analysis to reject them. (This was not just the CP, but also the SP.) We have to approach the newest left with a more reasoned approach, one that might make the new entrants more likely to listen to us, while listening to them as much as possible. -- Jim Devine / "I wanna be with you in paradise / And it seems so unfair / I can't go to paradise no more / I killed a man back there." -- Bob Dylan.
[PEN-L] U.S. Left was Re: [PEN-L] Response to Stan Goff
Greetings Economists, On Oct 24, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Sabri Oncu wrote: So, I find all such debates a total waste of time. Don't you have better things to do such as trying to grow your numbers or something? Doyle; We, the left includes you Sabri. Don't quite know why you say you are an outsider, but in any case, our problem here in the U.S. is your problem as well. Organizing or growing a mass movement in the U.S. seems to me more promising now than in the past 30 years. There are three reasons for this. One on the big scale neo-liberalism is weakening and on the retreat. Two the great U.S. war machine has visibly failed. Three the imbalanced U.S. economy twins to the failed military machine to provide a growing and potent reason for a left base here. In other words, growing the left is now on the agenda in a realistic manner. I don't agree with you that debates here about any issue like fascism is a waste of time. There are symptoms of mass movements in formation where the debates begin to grow and enlarge and escape the formal boundaries of the previous period. So any single debate is trivial, but the forces within a system start to make debates relate to events. The debate about fascism is really how the war is influencing people to consider what we are against when we know the war machine is an important pillar of power. The two great internal subjects in the U.S., the war machine, and the U.S. financial system, are beginning to generate a fluid mass break with conservative dominance. Any significant left to emerge here is going to be world important in the sense of those features of the U.S. that are world dominant as is. Finally it is clear to me that some significant leaders are in the left now, and I make no secret that I think Yoshie is one of them. In so far as organizing things then I see this as an important rising period for the left in the U.S. in which I think we will begin to come to grips with our weakness and orient ourselves in the global struggle. Doyle Saylor
