Re: [GENERAL] [WAY OT] Re: PL/java?
I'm interested to see the results, Cheers. -Original Message- From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 9:16 AM To: Lincoln Yeoh Cc: Gunnar Ronning; Alex Knight; Alex Pilosov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] [WAY OT] Re: PL/java? This is a valid concern for Solaris and I wish we had an answer. I am going to contact some Sun people to see if I can figure out a workaround. > Just curious about one thing. > > How was the perl app implemented? > > It seems Solaris doesn't do/fork processes very well which is why Sun > pushes threads. > > Whereas *BSD and Linux do processes about as well as Solaris does threads. > > Postgresql doesn't do so well on our Solaris 2GB box as it does on a 128MB > Linux x86 box. > > I haven't compared MySQL (threaded) on Solaris vs Linux. > > Cheerio, > Link. > > At 12:29 PM 9/1/01 +0200, Gunnar R?nning wrote: > >* "Alex Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >| > >| IMHO, scalability is incredibly important, and perl leaves that out often. > >| Even with Fast-CGI style servers, perl sucks. Perl is great for admin > >| interfaces, or low to medium traffic sites. > > > >We got a contract last december with a customer that were having some > >performance problems with a perl web application. The customer has > >access to the best perl programmers money can buy, but they could not > >fix the performance problem. > > > >We came in to make version 2.0 of the system. In one month we had an > >implementation in Java that outperformed the perl application by a factor > >of 10. The customer could stop the leasing of three of the Sun E450 servers > >they were previously using to run the perl application. > > > >We've had similar experiences in other projects. Every migration > >we've done from Perl->Java has resulted in massive savings. > > > >-- > >Gunnar R?nning - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/ > > > >---(end of broadcast)--- > >TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > > >http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl > > > > > > > ---(end of broadcast)--- > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command > (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) > -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 853-3000 + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup.| Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?
Python is a great language too. For scripts, I tend to write more python scripts than perl these days, simply because python better suits my needs and the base class library seems larger than perl's after install, not that adding libs aren't easy. But I can write compact scripts without cryptoblinding the user reading the script... Zope is quite powerful too. But Zope still has a long way to travel until it can make it to the Enterprise arena. I know a lot of the Zope developers, and zope.org specifically gets lots of hits, but it's not getting nearly as many as a Bankofamerica.com would get. -Knight -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Adam Manock Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PL/java? After having seen this Perl / Java debate go back and forth... I can't help myself... The answer is Python !!! For the best middleware you're ever likely to integrate with Postgresql : http://www.zope.org To see its "enterprise scalability": http://www.zope.org/About To see it taking LOTS of hits: http://ns1.zope.org:82/ To see it NOT using much memory at all: http://ns1.zope.org:82/cgi-bin/zope-track.pl (this one loads kinda slow, maybe cause it's done in Perl?) The real point here is that programmers are religious about their choice of language, and highly resistant to changing, which is why Postgres supports so many languages! I happen to prefer python, but that's just me. http://www.python.org if you're curious Adam At 06:21 AM 9/4/01, you wrote: >Hi Alex, > >Saying that mod_perl is slower than any java apps is purely marketing >for java. An other guy told me that one day, I just bench it to show him >how java developper just talk marketing. So the result was that with small >users the performance was the same and with many user mod_perl is >really speediest. Secondly mod_perl doesn't crash the system, under Linux >using Java is a waste of time and a leak of memory ! Marketing is probably >why daniel talk about Win$ > >When first Java was out it was called the "Perl killer", so after many years >Perl is most uses than Java, ask you why ??? > >For your other words what you do in Java can be done in perl more quickly >more efficiently and with writing many less lines ! > >An other example is the Oracle XML/SQL Servlet that it was plan to use >in my company. After hearing too many marketing words I write the same >in perl in 3 days and extend the possibility with no limits. Now they're using >Perl, ask you why ? This is use in the entreprise commercial application that >I think you call entreprise level ! > >At this time Perl is the only really portable language over any OS. > >In my opinion PL/Java is purely a waste of time but some have time so why >not ! > >Sorry but I can not let you say words like that, we are not newbe :-( > >In your way I can tell you that before using Perl I also preach for Java :-) >But >after rewritten many time the same apps with the differents versions of Java >and the OS where it should work it ended to decide me: no more Java ! > >Regards > >Gilles Darold > >Alex Knight wrote: > > > Daniel, thank you kindly for your input. > > > > However, mod_perl is absolutely slower than most any j2ee application. > > If all you are doing is keeping a session variable to count number of hits > > on a web page, then sure, perl is more than sufficient, possibly faster. > > But when you start doing anything of importance, enterprise level stuff, > > you need something scalable in ways java can go, but perl just doesn't > > seem to have _easy_ or sometimes _existant_ ways to implement. > > > > How would you go about synchronizing session data on 10 application servers > > running mod_perl _without_ using the database to "mirror" that data in > > memory? It's not very difficult to do it in Java. (Ofcourse, any smart > > architect would use content switches generally to keep a remote user > > associated with the initial app server to reduce the necessity of such > > "replication" technologies). > > > > Not sure how you are associating me with windows, but no, all my server > > stuff is always *nix. My answer on awt and swing was in reference to > > someone else who was basing their opinion of java on awt/swing's > > capabilities. Regardless, "applets" using awt/swing can be easily run > > under Linux Mozilla or Netscape, or HotJava, etc. So you can't really > > say that's enough to assume we're talking about windows. > > > > -Knight > > >---(end of broadcast)--- >TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?
Hi Gilles, You did not read what I wrote very well. First, I said that mod_perl was slower than "most any j2ee application". If you knew what j2ee was, you'd know that it's generally limited to server-side internet apps like servlets, jsps, etc... Not to mention, I do try to give perl credit where due. If java crashes your server, that's because either the vendor that has the jvm incorporated sucks, or your program was written poorly. I have _never_ crashed a system or eaten up memory when everything is properly installed. Java is NOT a cure all language. I honestly feel that because of the way the interpreter is packaged, it can not be used for every single situation, like C could for example. But I feel java would be incredibly appropriate in postgresql. I see it this way. All the people who really know Java's capabilities, and know that it can be used without problem, will want Java in the db. All the others who think "java is _always_ slow" or "java leaks memory" or "java is a waste of time" won't be using the java extensions ANYWAYS. As for perl, I probably came off a little wrong. In a reply to Randal, I did state that I liked perl very much, and I've been developing with it forever. Perl _is_ amazing, and there is no limit to what you can do with it. However, in some cases, Java does things better (just like perl does things faster than Java in certain situations). But perl has had the "most uses" for so many years because it is easy to learn, not truely object oriented (atleast the past few years have been that way), does not require compiling to simplify the execution process (i.e. fully interpreted), etc. Expand on your "enterprise application". A true enterprise application takes more than 3 days time to design and implement. Most "real" enterprise applications have multiple layers of logic, etc. I don't consider a script that queries a database for a password by 100,000 people a day to really be considered as Enterprise either. If I was new to programming, and I started "preaching Java" right off the bat, this conversation wouldn't be warranted. In fact, I run into these types of Java developers who go around saying they think Java is the best language ever, etc etc but don't really have the experience to make that claim. Anyways, I really didn't want this to get into "my language is better than yours", and let's drop that immediately. My entire purpose here was to help defend the idea of implementing Java as a PL in PGSQL. Anyone else have any comments about the java implementation? -Knight -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Gilles DAROLD Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PL/java? Hi Alex, Saying that mod_perl is slower than any java apps is purely marketing for java. An other guy told me that one day, I just bench it to show him how java developper just talk marketing. So the result was that with small users the performance was the same and with many user mod_perl is really speediest. Secondly mod_perl doesn't crash the system, under Linux using Java is a waste of time and a leak of memory ! Marketing is probably why daniel talk about Win$ When first Java was out it was called the "Perl killer", so after many years Perl is most uses than Java, ask you why ??? For your other words what you do in Java can be done in perl more quickly more efficiently and with writing many less lines ! An other example is the Oracle XML/SQL Servlet that it was plan to use in my company. After hearing too many marketing words I write the same in perl in 3 days and extend the possibility with no limits. Now they're using Perl, ask you why ? This is use in the entreprise commercial application that I think you call entreprise level ! At this time Perl is the only really portable language over any OS. In my opinion PL/Java is purely a waste of time but some have time so why not ! Sorry but I can not let you say words like that, we are not newbe :-( In your way I can tell you that before using Perl I also preach for Java :-) But after rewritten many time the same apps with the differents versions of Java and the OS where it should work it ended to decide me: no more Java ! Regards Gilles Darold Alex Knight wrote: > Daniel, thank you kindly for your input. > > However, mod_perl is absolutely slower than most any j2ee application. > If all you are doing is keeping a session variable to count number of hits > on a web page, then sure, perl is more than sufficient, possibly faster. > But when you start doing anything of importance, enterprise level stuff, > you need something scalable in ways java can go, but perl just doesn't > seem to have _easy_ or sometimes _existant_ ways to implement. > >
Re: [WAY OT] Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?
OK. If I find some time, I'm going to attempt to do some things that java does well, that I think perl can not do easily. -Knight -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Robert J. Sanford, Jr. Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 6:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Randal L. Schwartz Subject: Re: [WAY OT] Re: [GENERAL] PL/java? > No offense, but I've been developing under your language > since nearly it's public conception... and perl is _great_. > > Frankly, I don't want to argue with you, because you'll > simply defend your own creation without reasonably > evaluating the situation. > > But I think everyone needs to remember that we shouldn't > make a decision about this because of everyone's political > stances behind languages, especially if they haven't had > development experience with it. i think that you missed the point that mr. schwartz is trying to make - anything you can do in java, you _can_ do in perl. in my opinion, he isn't trying to say that you _should_ do it in perl. he might do it in perl but, after all, there is more than one way to get things done :) one of the things that i find refreshing about perl is its lack of corporate attitude. perl doesn't have any aspirations to be anything other than what it is. it isn't being driven by corporate marketing forcing it to beat someone else. the only thing that is driving it is the needs and desires of its developers to evolve it to meet the needs of its users. and i do almost all of my server-side development in java! > Alex> How would you go about synchronizing session data on 10 > Alex> application servers running mod_perl _without_ using the > Alex> database to "mirror" that data in memory? It's not very > Alex> difficult to do it in Java. are you saying that it isn't very difficult for you to go out and write this yourself in java or are you saying that it isn't difficult for you to use what someone else has already written? if the former and if you want to do something like this in perl you can start with reading the section in the camel book on tcp clients and servers. if you feel that tcp has too high of an overhead then you can read the section on udp clients and servers. if the latter, look on cpan and if what you want isn't there then you can step and contribute. ohmigod, i'm defending perl and guess what? i _still_ do almost all of my server-side development in java! > Alex> However, mod_perl is absolutely slower than most any > Alex> > j2ee application. If all you are doing is keeping > Alex> a session variable to count number of hits on a web > Alex> page, then sure, perl is more than sufficient, > Alex> possibly faster. But when you start doing anything > Alex> of importance, enterprise level stuff, you need > Alex> something scalable in ways java can go, but perl > Alex> just doesn't seem to have _easy_ or sometimes > Alex> _existant_ ways to implement. i don't like language bigots. i just don't. most languages are quite capable and anyone that denies the viability of one language is generally uninformed. just because perl doesn't get the four-color glossy press that java gets doesn't mean that it isn't capable it just means it doesn't get the four-color glossy press. just because you don't see something arrive in your box every day trumpeting perl doesn't mean it can't do what you want and do it well. it just means that there isn't anyone out there blowing the horn in your ear. we have already seen on this topic someone spouting off that java was way too slow, that c++ was sooo much better, that having a jvm included in the distribution would make postgres hog memory and crash unexpectedly. all of this without any links to nice evidence. all of this while degrading java based on the performance of one application (tomcat) that pretty much everyone agrees is a dog. personally, i see a _lot_ of similarities between his issues with java and your issues with perl. 7-11 burritos. rjsjr ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [GENERAL] speed of communication and pgsql development
There is an IRC channel already on EFnet... Visit #postgresql. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Gowey, Geoffrey Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 8:35 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [GENERAL] speed of communication and pgsql development Not to whine or anything, but I really do think that pgsql development seriously could be helped by usage of an official irc channel. Whether it be hosted on pgsql's official servers or on a 3rd party network such as undernet or openprojects.net I leave as a matter of discussion, but the mailing list really seems to have severe lag (which is painful when developing). Maybe continuously logging the irc channel and making the log searchable online could complement the mailing list? Anyway, just a thought. Geoff ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?
I keep hearing all this talk about Java being slow, and how compiled Java is nearly as slow as interpreted languages... If Java was _that_ slow, do you think it would be powering a majority of the Enterprise level sites out there? Java is really more than just hype. Surely it isn't nearly as fast as native optimized C/C++. But there are numerous advantages to the language. If you can afford to learn another language, and get some time to put it to practical use, I suggest that you take a closer look at Java... or IMHO, atleast don't knock it until you have substancial reasoning. -Kevin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Gowey, Geoffrey Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 5:09 PM To: 'Dr. Evil'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [GENERAL] PL/java? probably a bad idea. From what I've heard the speed of your java program is wholely dependent on the speed of your vm (and most aren't that quick). Although it would be nice to have just to say we have it and mysql doesn't (then again mysql doesn't have a whole lot of things that pgsql already has). Geoff -Original Message- From: Dr. Evil [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 7:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [GENERAL] PL/java? What do you think of having java as a procedural language available in PG? It seems like java has many advantages. I'm just wondering if people have thoughts or ideas on this, and if someone is actually working on it, that would be cool. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
