Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Hi Christopher-- I think we are talking apples and oranges here. Also sorry for the delay in responding. My son was born on Dec 16th, the day the message was sent to which I am responding. Christopher Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote: 1. The businesses that are sufficiently forward thinking to consider using PostgreSQL may be thoughtful enough to be looking more for 'serious professionals.' I agree to a point, and I am not disagreeing with the idea that serious professionals are more valuable and provide more value for the salery than paper cert holders. But I have STILL seen many employers looking for paper certs, especially in the small to midsize markets where the manager might not know better. I think that PostgreSQL has quite a bit to offer these markets and it may take some re-education on our part and quite a bit of advocacy to make it work. Certification years or decades down the road could be helpful here. 2. It seems to me that the IT Downturn is starting to make the value of certifications like MCSE unravel. From what I can see, most of the certifications were valuable to IT workers when the markets in the things certified were expanding. To some extent that has been the case, but bear in mind that the candidate screeners from HR don't always know how to spot a serious professional in a given field, and for more menial work, the MCSE, et al save the screener quite a bit of work. I think there are training documents; what needs to happen is to improve them. Ok. I see the tutorials, and there a few other documents there, but I see the lack of a few things: 1: Comprehensive list of skills that should be considered mandatory to consider oneself competent at working with PostgreSQL 2: A comprehensive training manual. A short tutorial might be OK for a newbie but if that is the extend you have people doing things like creating one table per customer and not knowing how to manage the information in the database. The second depends on the first. I have put together a tentative list (in no particular order) for basic competence: 1: Understanding of what an RDBMS is. 2: Database design principles and normalization through third normal form 2a: Understanding of data integrity issues (what does NULL mean, RI, etc.) 3: Understanding of simple SQL selects, inserts, updates, and deletes. 4: Understanding of basic views, rules, SQL language user defined functions. 5: Understanding of permissions and security. 6: Understanding of common data types and how to create tables. 6a: Understanding REFERENCES constraints and ON UPDATE/ON DELETE modifiers. 7: How to install PostgreSQL on Windows via Cygwin and *NIX from source. Anyone have anything else to add? For more advanced competency, I would add higher normal forms, PLPGSQL, and a few other things. And I think the notion of certification is quite distant down the road... As I have said-- years or decades. But having a well reviewed suggested standard of skills would not only allow that to happen *if* the market would support it, but also provide better value to our newbie community than any of the other open source RDBMS's. That is, IMO, where we should be focusing our attention, and certification, if and when it happens can be purely an afterthought. Best Wishes, Chris Travers ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Quoting Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Amy Young wrote: In the mean time, I will investigate the 21 day book (I have used the series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the need for some training classes I don't see that there is a lack of availability of training opportunities. Just ask any of the PostgreSQL consultants and they will do custom training for you. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings Great idea!! As a part of advocacy perhaps we in the community should add training as one of the things we do. I'm sure some of us have done training before but if we mobilize this effort more formally from within, we could quickly have quite a bit of trainers once we decide how to divide up the knowledge (i.e. training levels). I think Bruce's said his materials are on his web site so perhaps we should start there with the intention of repackaging that information for community distribution. -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Hi, Why worry? I'm sure that most of the guys in this list didn't have dedicated PostgreSQL training (I didn't for sure). You have lots of tutorials and (not to forget) a great documentation set on the Postgres website. There are also the mailing lists with people who like to help you. And remember: in a open source community, you'll never be alone ;-) Cheers! Wim Amy Young wrote: Bret, Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as loudly as I can. I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality corporation. Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, tool design through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate reporting). We are just pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the amount of data we are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. The amount of data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to move to a SQL server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, so the free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. However, only 1 person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers and none with PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, but found it to be slower than the convoluted work around we've developed in MS Access. Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how we had the server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL. I have been reading what I can, and while I understand some of the concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way through Greek. I need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the MySQL class and have added that to my goals for next year. However, it will take some strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to training for something that will sort of apply to what we are doing in the office. So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to training. In the mean time, I will investigate the 21 day book (I have used the series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the need for some training classes (The certifications are optional as far as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of certifications since I used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. I just want someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire process so I can learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my own). And I'll be asking as many questions on the list server as I can. Cheers, Amy Young Sr. Revenue Analyst Memphis, TN -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bret Busby Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 From: Bryan Encina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Bruce Momjian' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Bret, Thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll second it as loudly as I can. I work for a small 5 member team in a major hospitality corporation. Our team has a mish mash of responsibilities (help desk, tool design through MS Excel and MS Access, and corporate reporting). We are just pushing the limits of MS Access capabilities with the amount of data we are getting pushed to us for our corporate reporting. The amount of data is only going to grow and we realize we NEED to move to a SQL server of some kind. Cost containment is a huge factor, so the free-ware aspect of PostgresQL is extremely enticing. However, only 1 person on our team has ANY experience with SQL servers and none with PostgreSQL. We originally started investigating MySQL, but found it to be slower than the convoluted work around we've developed in MS Access. Further investigation revealed that it may be due to how we had the server set up. Then, someone suggestions PostgreSQL. I have been reading what I can, and while I understand some of the concepts, and I am still mostly floundering my way through Greek. I need a strong foundation in the basics. I had found the MySQL class and have added that to my goals for next year. However, it will take some strong arguments to convince my superiors to send me to training for something that will sort of apply to what we are doing in the office. So my options are: use MySQL instead or don't go to training. In the mean time, I will investigate the 21 day book (I have used the series many times!) and hope the PostgreSQL community will recognize the need for some training classes (The certifications are optional as far as I'm concerned, though I recognize the power of certifications since I used to teach at New Horizons Computer Training Center. I just want someone to hold my hand and walk me through the entire process so I can learn the lingo. Then, I can figure things out on my own). And I'll be asking as many questions on the list server as I can. Cheers, Amy Young Sr. Revenue Analyst Memphis, TN -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bret Busby Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 From: Bryan Encina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Bruce Momjian' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Hi Brett; On Sat, 2003-12-13 at 01:06, Bret Busby wrote: snip I assume from the above, that the 1 one (Basic competency), would be the equivalent of the MySQL 4 Core Certification? Would it not also be appropriate, to include in that one, installation and (basic) configuration; that is, including configuration, but not to the extent of performance tuning? Installation and basic configuration might be a part of it. However, as I have stated before, this MIGHT eventually lead to certification, but IF it happens, it will be years or decades away. Also, then, in which level, would you include upgrading (version upgrades)? Bear in mind that the model I am working with is a rough draft and I welcome community feedback. Basic upgrading may be considered part of the basic competency part, but more advanced aspects would be at least a level or 2 beyond that. Also, you should understand that while I agree that a more structured framework would be helpful for people learning the program, I think there is something to be said against overly structuring the curriculum. This is where, IMO, the Microsoft certifications fall flat. (I have taken and passed 11 of the MCP exams and of those, I was only impressed with 1 of them; it is now retired.) What I am hoping to do is create a community record of what is considered to be a set of skills necessary to really use the database manager in a variety of ways. This is lacking (both in the MySQL and PostgreSQL communities) and I think that it would be helpful for us to do it first. Then the actual technical might be filled in by individual contributors, and discussions could be had over errors (allowing a better peer review process). Community ownership is imperitive. Out of interest, Chris, in noting your message timestamp, which shows the same time zone as Western Australia, are you somehwere above me (in some country north of Western Australia)? The only country below me, from my understanding, is Antartica. Yes. I am currently in Jakarta, Indonesia (for the next few months). Best Wishes, Chris Travers ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
John Gibson wrote: Linux training is not standardized by any measure either. Lots of companies and institutions offer their own training courses. Some of these grow to be fairly well recognized and are offered in similar form repeatedly in different locations, but that is not standardized in the sense you propose. This is not exactly true. In the marketplace the Red Hat Linux certification (at least in the US) is pretty much considered the standard. This makes Bret's point for him. Red Hat invested in providing training. It is just a de-facto standard, nothing more. Imagine if Linus or the Linux kernel guys tried to standardize Linux training --- it would be a mess. Also, though lots of people want training, seems that want _free_ training. They aren't flooding my Atlanta classes, that's for sure. I give classes at many conferences around the world too, and I get usually 20-40 people --- not exactly a flood either. Maybe they want me to come to their house? :-) Tell me what your wife is cooking for dinner before I decide. :-) -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Chris Travers wrote: I think though that there is an opportunity, though, for us to perhaps work together in developing a Postgresql training base curriculum. We can pool some resources and perhaps develop at least a list of the things which ought to be covered. Perhaps this can lead to books on the subject, etc. I am thinking that an open curriculum might be something very helpful particularly for novices. It doesn't have to lead to certification, but it could enable third parties (including Brainbench) to build certifications that they could charge for. All my class presentations are on my home page --- the only thing that isn't there is the exercises. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 02:04, Keith C. Perry wrote: Agreed. However-- there is a push in the IT world (much resisted here) to try to make sysadmin/DBA positions more of a technician-oriented rather than academic oriented. The idea here is that it reduces IT costs (perhaps, though, at the expense of returns). I think it just the opposite- or perhaps better said, its starting to chance. I think many companies have learned that a piece of paper is just that- especially in the case of certs. This is not to say that there are exceptions but lets face it, it really comes down to what a person has actually done. The change I'm seeing is that the decision making folks are more often asking what have you done and how can we confirm instead of what are you certified/degreed in and can we see the paper I still think that there is a movement in many businesses to see the role of DBA, sysadmin, etc. as that of a glorified technician rather than a really serious professional. Certifications are a part of it, but it is a broader pattern. This is especially true of the market of mid-size businesses. The larger businesses tend to have the lower ranks manned by glorified techs, while the upper ranks are managed by the more academic types. I presume that your experience is different, and I hope you are right. I personally thing that databases are so important to a business that they should really look at doing it right. The beauty of PostgreSQL, Linux, Apache et al, is that there is no singular concept of should. Its a worldwide community and there are going to be many paths to a successful marketing campaign. As such the only should criteria to me is that we SHOULD respect all methods equally. OK. I misspoke. It is easy to think of a community as a monolithic entity... Perhaps more appropriate would have been: This is why moving toward eventual training documents and possibly eventual certifications is important for the PostgreSQL community. Now thats a very important point and something to consider- would certifcation help advocate PG and thus lead to an increase in market share. If you look at the Red Hat example that Tom cited I think its unquestionably yes. Though I do not use personally use Red Hat, I do have to say even before they offered certification they had at least achieved enough momentum to have people consider Linux. Their achievements along with some others have helped OSS become more accepted. It took nearly 5 years for RedHat to get to the point where they were offering the certification (as a major entity). There is NO way we can move this fast even if we all try, provided we want to do it right. That situtation is a little different though since Linux comes is various distributions. Eventually people with get that Linux = Red Hat is NOT true. Heck, IBM is probably the best at promoting Linux these days in the mainstream. With PostgreSQL, we're just one disto so once the ball really gets rolling, its going to pick up speed quickly. Actually my idea is to launch something more like the Linux Documentation Project but with more structure. Eventually, major parties involved may be brought together and help develop full-featured curriculums, certify third-party certs as complying with the features and/or developing their own certification. This would be a long-term project and would not lead to instant certifications, curriculums, etc. Best Wishes, Chris Travers ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 21:40, Bruce Momjian wrote: Imagine if Linus or the Linux kernel guys tried to standardize Linux training --- it would be a mess. Exactly, but that is what community is for :-) Also, though lots of people want training, seems that want _free_ training. They aren't flooding my Atlanta classes, that's for sure. I give classes at many conferences around the world too, and I get usually 20-40 people --- not exactly a flood either. Maybe they want me to come to their house? :-) Tell me what your wife is cooking for dinner before I decide. :-) I guess I see this from a different angle. The problem is not only because people only want free training, but because the PostgreSQL community by and large has a very small novice component. Most people who turn to PostgreSQL understand what it is they are looking for and have experience with other relational database systems. As a result these people (myself included) can easily pick up the manual and run with it. Compared to that of MySQL, our community is sparse, widely disperse, and MUCH more experienced/professional. This puts a damper on the training unless we can create a larger interest in the database among novices. This is partly what the job of the advocacy community is. But really it crosses all boundaries. I am wondering if you are interested in helping with some sort of skills outline project-- what skills we as a community think are important for someone to claim basic mastery over the database manager. Not as if you don't have enough to do already ;-) Maybe at least as a mentor. Best Wishes, Chris Travers ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Quoting Rick Gigger [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ok, I see what you're trying to do. In looking at this it occurs to me that one of the way to aid in this effort is through more tech documents. For instance, I have asked before what is the recommended procedure or stategy for recovering a database that has crashed. Something like that is wide open (and might not even be the correct language) but several tech notes addressing specific scenarios would not only aid in actually helping someone but would also document real situation that could then be tested on. Extending that scenario to other area would build a nice library/knowledge base for the community which was be more formalize and more efficient that searching through the newsgroups. It think this would be great not because I want some sort of certification but rather because it would be nice to have a nice organized way of learning (or teaching a new employee or something) both basic and advanced postgres features. rg I think you summed up exactly what I was trying to get out. We can put all the material together that someone would use to be certified but there should not be an emphasis on it. After reading/studying a training manual or guide, it should be completely a personal choice. -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Quoting Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John Gibson wrote: Linux training is not standardized by any measure either. Lots of companies and institutions offer their own training courses. Some of these grow to be fairly well recognized and are offered in similar form repeatedly in different locations, but that is not standardized in the sense you propose. This is not exactly true. In the marketplace the Red Hat Linux certification (at least in the US) is pretty much considered the standard. This makes Bret's point for him. Red Hat invested in providing training. It is just a de-facto standard, nothing more. Imagine if Linus or the Linux kernel guys tried to standardize Linux training --- it would be a mess. Also, though lots of people want training, seems that want _free_ training. They aren't flooding my Atlanta classes, that's for sure. I give classes at many conferences around the world too, and I get usually 20-40 people --- not exactly a flood either. Maybe they want me to come to their house? :-) Tell me what your wife is cooking for dinner before I decide. :-) -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend LOL, Bruce tell you what- I'm a pretty good cook. Maybe I'll talk to Drexel about a catered certification event! That definitely be *bam* taking it up a notch!! -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Chris, Your persistence and your ideas suggest that you have something to contribute in this area. Why not sign up on the pgsql-advocacy list, and carry your ideas forward there? That would be an appropriate forum for this kind of discussion. The arguments on both sides (if there are only two sides) are strong, which is why this is such a difficult problem. But I see some promise of the emergence from further discussion of some workable formula. The Wise Heads have been convinced to change their minds before, and can be again. Best of luck! --- Chris Travers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2003-12-12 at 21:40, Bruce Momjian wrote: Imagine if Linus or the Linux kernel guys tried to standardize Linux training --- it would be a mess. Exactly, but that is what community is for :-) Also, though lots of people want training, seems that want _free_ training. They aren't flooding my Atlanta classes, that's for sure. I give classes at many conferences around the world too, and I get usually 20-40 people --- not exactly a flood either. Maybe they want me to come to their house? :-) Tell me what your wife is cooking for dinner before I decide. :-) I guess I see this from a different angle. The problem is not only because people only want free training, but because the PostgreSQL community by and large has a very small novice component. Most people who turn to PostgreSQL understand what it is they are looking for and have experience with other relational database systems. As a result these people (myself included) can easily pick up the manual and run with it. Compared to that of MySQL, our community is sparse, widely disperse, and MUCH more experienced/professional. This puts a damper on the training unless we can create a larger interest in the database among novices. This is partly what the job of the advocacy community is. But really it crosses all boundaries. I am wondering if you are interested in helping with some sort of skills outline project-- what skills we as a community think are important for someone to claim basic mastery over the database manager. Not as if you don't have enough to do already ;-) Maybe at least as a mentor. Best Wishes, Chris Travers ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Quoting Peter Eisentraut [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Keith C. Perry wrote: That situtation is a little different though since Linux comes is various distributions. Eventually people with get that Linux = Red Hat is NOT true. Heck, IBM is probably the best at promoting Linux these days in the mainstream. With PostgreSQL, we're just one disto so once the ball really gets rolling, its going to pick up speed quickly. Well, we're moving more into a direction where PostgreSQL is just a kernel and you have to look around and search the other applications yourself, such as language bindings, GUI tools, etc. This trend has both advantages and disadvantages, but providing comprehensive information through any means is becoming more of a challenge. -- Peter Eisentraut Microsoft Certified Solitaire Player *laff* so you're an MCSP huh? I might have to use that one Peter- I wondered some time ago about why my Pg.pm module was no longer included in the release and of course I was soon introducted to gborg which I thought was a great idea. It didn't occur to me that it was a conscious direction that PG was talking. Kernelizing PG would definitely help advocate/market long term. Talking some familiar examples. Today Linux runs on everything- embedded this and embedded that. I almost shed a tear when I say it on an Ipod! Same thing with Apache which is probably the next great OSS success story. Some tech companies that survived the late 90's realized they could create products because of all the OSS that was already out there. I've reviewed so many things in the last two years its not even funny. Then I get the what do you think question... What do I think?? I think hiring a developer/programmer will save you a lot of money. All that is, is Linux with OSS list inserted here If more of those companies actually advertised what they were building their products off of, it would be a great help to OSS. Some do but all should. Either way, to see PostgreSQL talked about with Linux and Apache will be a great day. -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Quoting Marc G. Fournier [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Peter Eisentraut wrote: Keith C. Perry wrote: That situtation is a little different though since Linux comes is various distributions. Eventually people with get that Linux = Red Hat is NOT true. Heck, IBM is probably the best at promoting Linux these days in the mainstream. With PostgreSQL, we're just one disto so once the ball really gets rolling, its going to pick up speed quickly. Well, we're moving more into a direction where PostgreSQL is just a kernel and you have to look around and search the other applications yourself, such as language bindings, GUI tools, etc. This trend has both advantages and disadvantages, but providing comprehensive information through any means is becoming more of a challenge. IMHO, promoting software should be a function on the web site, and not including it as part of the distribution ... is there an open source distro of something like freshmeat that we could put up (so that we don't have to 'yet again recreate the wheel')? Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 Marc, Isn't our Gborg loosely equivalent to Freshmeat? -- Keith C. Perry, MS E.E. Director of Networks Applications VCSN, Inc. http://vcsn.com This email account is being host by: VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Keith C. Perry wrote: Also, though lots of people want training, seems that want _free_ training. They aren't flooding my Atlanta classes, that's for sure. I give classes at many conferences around the world too, and I get usually 20-40 people --- not exactly a flood either. Maybe they want me to come to their house? :-) Tell me what your wife is cooking for dinner before I decide. :-) LOL, Bruce tell you what- I'm a pretty good cook. Maybe I'll talk to Drexel about a catered certification event! That definitely be *bam* taking it up a notch!! Last time I was at Drexel they took me out to dinner afterwards, and it was very nice. Come to think of it, the offered pizza at the event, but I was fed only _after_ talked. Hmmm... -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Chris Travers wrote: I am wondering if you are interested in helping with some sort of skills outline project-- what skills we as a community think are important for someone to claim basic mastery over the database manager. Not as if you don't have enough to do already ;-) Maybe at least as a mentor. Sure, makes sense. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote: Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:41:39 -0500 (EST) From: Bruce Momjian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Chris Travers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Stephan Szabo [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bret Busby [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training Chris Travers wrote: I think though that there is an opportunity, though, for us to perhaps work together in developing a Postgresql training base curriculum. We can pool some resources and perhaps develop at least a list of the things which ought to be covered. Perhaps this can lead to books on the subject, etc. I am thinking that an open curriculum might be something very helpful particularly for novices. It doesn't have to lead to certification, but it could enable third parties (including Brainbench) to build certifications that they could charge for. All my class presentations are on my home page --- the only thing that isn't there is the exercises. And, from what I have seen of the Table of Contents of the book, as listed on the Internet, exercises are also not there. Exercises make alot of difference to training and learning, as, from exercises, comes understanding and remembering. That is one of the reasons that I seek formalised, standardised training, and a Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book (to which I recently alluded in a particular query about the book), apart from the certifications. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Before I begin, I think that most of us agree on the following points: 1: The PostgreSQL project is not in a position at the moment to bless any attempt to create an official curriculum or certification. 2: The idea of patterning PostgreSQL certifications on Microsoft exams is patently offensive as a paper PostgreSQL Certified DBA could do a whole lot more damage than a paper MCSE. 3: We are all for leveraging as many advocacy tools as possible. 4: It is not easy to get PostgreSQL-specific training at the moment for many people on this list. On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 04:49, Stephan Szabo wrote: On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Tom Lane wrote: I think there *would* be resistance to labeling anything as official PostgreSQL certification, mainly because of the problem of who gets to decide which things are official. No one will object if companies If we wanted something like that, it'd presumably end up being the community's responsibility to be doing some level of oversight. Possibly initial test/class material creation would be done that way too. I don't really think we have people that could put in the effort necessary to build and then maintain such a system at the moment though, but I'm not sure that such a thing would necessarily be impossible. Obviously, it is impossible to set up an official curriculum/certification at this stage. But I still think it could be done in a gradual way. Here is how we *could* do it. Note that this is NOT an overnight fix and will probably take years or decades to get to the point where we have community approved standard certification. We may never even get there. I think that is OK and things that are worth doing are worth doing well and a graduated approach will mean that there is some benefit to be had well before we get to the end-game. Here is a clearer picture of what I am proposing: 1: The development of a community curriculum project officially separate from the PostgreSQL project, but working closely with the PostgreSQL advocacy community. This would lead to: 2: The development of a community approved curriculum outline. The outline would not specify a temporal but rather a logical order covering all topics the community feels must be covered in order to be considered proficient with PostgreSQL. Much of the information could be product-inspecific. This would lead to: 3: The development of curriculums derivative of the outline by members and third parties. It could also lead to online tutorials, references (above and beyond the Postgrsql documentation). At some point a non-profit organization may need to be formed to manage the ability of others to claim that their curriculums complied with the outline. Third parties, such as Brainbench may be persuaded to offer some certifications of this sort as well. 4: Eventually such an organization may wish to create a certification process for PostgreSQL skill. This would likely include an exam similar to the CCIE or RHCE-- a theory written test, an installation/database design hands-on test, and a troubleshooting/fix this install hands on test. This would likely be a LONG way away and would be predicated on having a large community of trainers and examiners around the world. I think that it is WAY to early to be contemplating creating an official PostgreSQL certification. But it is not to early to start laying the groundwork for community-maintained curriculum outlines, etc. that can be extremely useful as an advocacy tool. And if the PostgreSQL project wanted to bless such an effort as being official, I think that would be great. It is not, strictly speaking, necessary however. (Disclaimer: I have no reason to think that Red Hat might offer any such certification program for Postgres in the foreseeable future. Too bad.) It is, because they're probably the closest group we have to being able to offer a reasonably large scale centralized training/testing program. Not to mention: The RHCE is a good exam because it tests hands-on skill rather than the ability to pass multiple-guess tests. It is expensive and when I get a chance, I will likely take it. As a footnote-- when I worked at Microsoft, I was required to pass a certain number of MCP exams every year, so I have a reasonable feel for what is wrong with that system, but also how it has helped Microsoft continue to build market share in the server market. Certifications and well thought-out curriculums ARE important advocacy tools and they also help companies reduce training costs, and though whether this results in a net benefit is not clear, it tends to be a successful marketing strategy. One thing I noticed in the MCP exams that I took was that most of them were simply multiple-guess and many of them served either to point out the flaws in the test designer's mind or the OS (NDA prohibits providing examples, but the NT4 Server in the Enterprise is a test that comes to mind). There was, however, one well designed
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Ok, I see what you're trying to do. In looking at this it occurs to me that one of the way to aid in this effort is through more tech documents. For instance, I have asked before what is the recommended procedure or stategy for recovering a database that has crashed. Something like that is wide open (and might not even be the correct language) but several tech notes addressing specific scenarios would not only aid in actually helping someone but would also document real situation that could then be tested on. Extending that scenario to other area would build a nice library/knowledge base for the community which was be more formalize and more efficient that searching through the newsgroups. It think this would be great not because I want some sort of certification but rather because it would be nice to have a nice organized way of learning (or teaching a new employee or something) both basic and advanced postgres features. rg ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 From: Bryan Encina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Bruce Momjian' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training I think that is about the author of the web site, and is being removed. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard certification/training? Bryan I think that, in part, this goes to issues like I mentioned to someone, off-list, about a response to a query that I raised on the GENERAL list, about the Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book, which is advertised on the Internet, but which does not exist. The absence of that book, is unfortunate, as, from what I have seen of the Table of Contents of the MySQL equivalent, which I mention below, the MySQL book appears to be a reasonably good, structured, way to learn MySQL, and, an equivalent book for PostgreSQL; a similarly structured book, with the equivalent exercises, would, I believe, be a good way to learn PostgreSQL, in a structured way. A while ago, on (I believe) the GENERAL list, a discussion occurred about PostgreSQL certification, in which discussion, PostgreSQL certification was apparently knocked on the head. I found the discussion, by searching, using google, for PostgreSQL certification. As I had said to the person with whom I corresponded off-list, with the knowledge that I have of database development, what I am intending to do, as the only apparent option, in all of the circumstances, is to obtain the Teach Yourself MySQL In 21 Days book, which does exist, work through it, then sit the MySQL certifications, which exist (MySQL 4 Core Certification and MySQL 4 Certified Professional), and then, on passing those, transfer the acquired skills and knowledge, to PostgreSQL, by working through the book, as much as possible, using PostgreSQL, and, working through available PostgreSQL books; thus, obtaining open source database development skills and certification with MySQL, and, while not formalised or certified, PostgreSQL skills. It is fairly convoluted, but appears to be the only way of getting PostgreSQL skills in a structured way, and, (kind of) related certification. From my understanding, PostgreSQL is a more powerful and more ANSI-SQL standard-compliant DBMS, than MySQL, and, than major commercial DBMS's, but PostgreSQL apparently lacks formal assessment and certification of skills in the same way that MySQL has, thus making training and certification for PostgreSQL, lacking in comparison. The MySQL certifications, are international skillset certifications, like MCAD, MCSD, MCSE, RHCE, and LPI certifications, and, from what I understand, similarly, internationally recognised. Unfortunately, the result of the lack of formal, structured, PostgreSQL training and certification, and the apparent resistance to these, in the PostgreSQL community, is that, like the Perl people, the result is that practitioners appear to be hack-programmers (I do not mean that in a derogatory way, but, in the sense of being lacking in formal training and certification in PostgreSQL skills), in the absence of formalised training and certification. I understand that, as with PostgreSQL, in the Perl community, resistance to any form of skills certification, exists. This is found by similarly searching on Perl certification. Thus, is the existence of the title, as apparently used by many Perl programmers; JAPH - Just Another Perl Hacker. That too, has been mentioned, in the discussions about the prospect of Perl certification I am not intending to troll, or to enter into any brand flame war with this (and I hope that this message is not misconstrued as flaming or trolling, but, rather, taken as the constructive criticism as it is intended to be); however, I think that the lack of training and certification facilities such as exist for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, is a bit disappointing, and leaves the path that I intend to take, as the only option available, to get into development using PostgreSQL. I personally, believe, and, suggest, that formalised, structured, training, and, international assessment and certification, as exists and as is supposed to be being developed for MySQL, for PostgreSQL, would go a long way to increased public acceptance of PostgreSQL, and, to the maturity of PostgreSQL, and would thus lead to increased public use of PostgreSQL. (And, a good Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book, would be good, too :) . ) My wife is a software developer, by profession. She also trains people, and has trained lecturers, in some of the development software in which she develops. However, when the issue of open source
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Although you certainly have a point that a lot of companies rely on certification in the one or other way, you'd have to admit that probably 80% of certified people have no clue what they are talking about. I met so many certified people where you could give them a problem and they have no idea of how to solve it. IMHO a certification is a fabulous way to generate money flow for the company offering the certification, it's not a way to proof skills. What most certifications lack is problem solving. The moment you can just learn it and take the test the certification is complete nonsense. Microsoft started this certification thing just to generate more income - there are so many MSCE's that normally a spreading virus shouldn't spread - since, you guessed it, a decent administrator would have applied patches, checked for threads, have a decent firewall etc. etc. I'm not completely against certification, however it should be real education in the first place. There are only few certifications out there that really test skills and not book knowledge. As it comes to postgresql - it's a pretty usual rdbms. No fundamentally big difference to oracle and similar systems. If you can handle oracle you shouldn't have a problem with postgresql. The issues you'll certainly encounter are usually easy to figure out via the community or the techdocs. Sure I can't change the system, but companies should start to change their way of operating. Most certifications (and even academic degrees) simply proof that you could acquire a certain amount of theoretical knowledge in a certain amount of time. It doesn't proof that you can actually apply that knowledge to real world situations. And if you look around in companies - large or small - you see the same amount of bad decisions over and over again. - From that experience I supprot the idea of making postgresql more public, but don't start a certification that basically asks for the contents of the 15 year old SQL book catching dust on some shelf. I agree that more and better documentation in a more business adequate way should be published. Just to do a little flame thing: If you learn MySQL you'll get about 10% of what postgresql can do - better head for a oracle certification. On Tuesday 09 December 2003 11:09 pm, Bret Busby wrote: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Bryan Encina wrote: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 From: Bryan Encina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Bruce Momjian' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training I think that is about the author of the web site, and is being removed. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us Since the last survey on postgresql.org had almost 80% of those surveyed wanting a standard worldwide PostgreSQL training course (and over 50% being strongly yes), are there any forseeable future plans for standard certification/training? Bryan I think that, in part, this goes to issues like I mentioned to someone, off-list, about a response to a query that I raised on the GENERAL list, about the Teach Yourself PostgreSQL In 21 Days book, which is advertised on the Internet, but which does not exist. The absence of that book, is unfortunate, as, from what I have seen of the Table of Contents of the MySQL equivalent, which I mention below, the MySQL book appears to be a reasonably good, structured, way to learn MySQL, and, an equivalent book for PostgreSQL; a similarly structured book, with the equivalent exercises, would, I believe, be a good way to learn PostgreSQL, in a structured way. A while ago, on (I believe) the GENERAL list, a discussion occurred about PostgreSQL certification, in which discussion, PostgreSQL certification was apparently knocked on the head. I found the discussion, by searching, using google, for PostgreSQL certification. As I had said to the person with whom I corresponded off-list, with the knowledge that I have of database development, what I am intending to do, as the only apparent option, in all of the circumstances, is to obtain the Teach Yourself MySQL In 21 Days book, which does exist, work through it, then sit the MySQL certifications, which exist (MySQL 4 Core Certification and MySQL 4 Certified Professional), and then, on passing those, transfer the acquired skills and knowledge, to PostgreSQL, by working through the book, as much as possible, using PostgreSQL, and, working through available PostgreSQL books; thus, obtaining open source database development skills and certification with MySQL, and, while not formalised or certified, PostgreSQL skills. It is fairly convoluted, but appears to be the only way of getting PostgreSQL skills in a structured way, and, (kind of) related certification. From my understanding, PostgreSQL is a more powerful and more ANSI-SQL standard-compliant DBMS, than MySQL, and, than
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Bret Busby wrote: Regarding the PostgreSQL training that is provided by companies, a problem with that, as it exists, is that, insofar as I am aware, that training is not standardised, Linux training is not standardized by any measure either. Lots of companies and institutions offer their own training courses. Some of these grow to be fairly well recognized and are offered in similar form repeatedly in different locations, but that is not standardized in the sense you propose. Companies and institutions are free to start their own training programs for PostgreSQL like that and hope they succeed, but no one has felt like it yet. But, this is a (relatively) small city, of only about a million or so people, in a remote corner of the world, and, we have no dedicated companies providing PostgreSQL training, which appears (from what I have seen so far) to be available only in the USA. Certainly, PostgreSQL training has been know to happen in a large number of different locations. And some people have been known to travel large distances to provide custom training. Just ask if you're interested. Thus, for those training and certification courses, that I have mentioned as being available here, they are available to me, and, likely, to most (if not everyone) on these lists, and, they should be at the same standards and levels of competency, and have the same course content, regardless of location, due to the standardisation of those courses and certifications. But, the PostgreSQL training, insofar as I am ware, is both not standardised, and, completely localised. It is only possible to offer worldwide standardized training programs if some organization operates worldwide and can run the show. Such organizations don't exist for PostgreSQL at this time. That is the problem. The PostgreSQL project is never going to organize standardized training, because it doesn't have the power to organize or run it. The other examples you cited don't work that way either. They are run by companies. But the companies can only reach as far as their resources allow. Another point is that standard training doesn't really make you a lot of money unless you scale really well. It's most interesting if you provide custom training, or if you expect follow-up jobs from it. Most people I've heard of do PostgreSQL training for these reasons. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Linux training is not standardized by any measure either. Lots of companies and institutions offer their own training courses. Some of these grow to be fairly well recognized and are offered in similar form repeatedly in different locations, but that is not standardized in the sense you propose. This is not exactly true. In the marketplace the Red Hat Linux certification (at least in the US) is pretty much conisidered the standard. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC - S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming, shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-222-2783 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.commandprompt.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
Linux training is not standardized by any measure either. Lots of companies and institutions offer their own training courses. Some of these grow to be fairly well recognized and are offered in similar form repeatedly in different locations, but that is not standardized in the sense you propose. This is not exactly true. In the marketplace the Red Hat Linux certification (at least in the US) is pretty much conisidered the standard. This makes Bret's point for him. Red Hat invested in providing training. It is just a de-facto standard, nothing more. ...john ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
I think though that there is an opportunity, though, for us to perhaps work together in developing a Postgresql training base curriculum. We can pool some resources and perhaps develop at least a list of the things which ought to be covered. Perhaps this can lead to books on the subject, etc. I am thinking that an open curriculum might be something very helpful particularly for novices. It doesn't have to lead to certification, but it could enable third parties (including Brainbench) to build certifications that they could charge for. I see the potential for the development of an open curriculum (at least in outline form) as being something that could be an immense tool for PostgreSQL advocacy. Whether we choose to make something of this curriculum or not is up to us, and if there is interest, I will start a gborg project for it. Interested parties should let me know. If certification of curriculums is needed down the road, I think that it would be better to make it a group effort and form some sort of non-profit consortium of the contributors. But at the moment, I think it is more important to make something available. Best Wishes, Chris Travers ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send unregister YourEmailAddressHere to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [GENERAL] [NOVICE] PostgreSQL Training
On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 04:39, Keith C. Perry wrote: I think what the real religious argument here is that many, many people feel skills assessment should NOT be linked to a product. It should in fact be linked to the underlying material a product is designed to manipulate. If someone is more of an academic, I seriously doubt that they are going to seek certification in a product. 9 out of 10 times, someone like that is going to be able to pick up a product manual and be off and running. However, if you are new to the feild, 18-36 months at a tech school is going to be more appealing than 48 to 60 months at a college. Lets not forget that human being want what they want when they want it. Sooner for *most* people is better, especially where money is involved, Agreed. However-- there is a push in the IT world (much resisted here) to try to make sysadmin/DBA positions more of a technician-oriented rather than academic oriented. The idea here is that it reduces IT costs (perhaps, though, at the expense of returns). The true motivation for certification is/was marketing. Its just a different piece of paper- some people go to traditional educational institutions and some people chase certification for these newer tech schools. Its all in the name of being able to market oneself. Exactly, and this is a reason why we SHOULD look at moving in this direction. In one case however, education is product neutral which means you have a strong base knowledge ready to be applied. So you build product knowledge from there. In the other case, you learn products and in doing that you tend towards having a strong base knowledge. Of course, products also come and go and change much more frequently than the base knowlege. I don't disagree. But the advocacy issue is still there. I do not think that we can/should try to develop certifications at this time. However, I think that it would be a good idea, provided there is sufficient interest, in pooling resources to develop a general well-rounded curriculum base from which other curriculums could be built. Perhaps this will lead towards certification. I think that we should work with the advocacy team, etc. and build on a base of product-neutral information. Best Wishes, Chris Travers ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
