Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Wolfgang Keller]

Alex Turner wrote:

> No.1 Python does not scale well.
> map x=new map();

Whatever that may mean. Reminds me why I deliberately forgot all of C
right after the final test of that class at university.

> vs
> self.d={};

Beep.

Go back to my initial article and read what I wrote. And try to
understand the word "to scale" in its context _there_.

> Python is 10x slower than C++ or Java.

Thanks for this "extremely differentiated" statement, as it makes clear
there is no point to discuss subjects like this with you any further.

Then for example the Ironport mailservers must really be aFata morgana,
or are there many mailservers out there that can handle 1 Mio messages
per hour on a moderately equipped desktop computer im plemented in
"Java" or C++...?

> If you do any kind of OO
> programming, python is very slow.

Well, if Python's too slow for you, then C or C++ are as well.

Because one can get compiled C speed simply by doing an "import pyrex",
adding some static declarations and feeding the Python code through
distutils - without having to touch C even with rubber gloves.

And don't get me into talking about "Java" applications - I've seen
quite a few of them, tried to use them for actual work and they all
failed miserably. There wasn't one among them which had a
"responsiveness" which actually deserved to be named as such and they
all leaked memory in such ridiculous amounts that after at most 30
minutes of usage the only way to get the computer out of its totally
frozen state was to physically pull the power plug. And this, no matter
how much physical RAM was installed.

> No. 2. Python does not inteface with everything by a long shot
> Case in point - no good native MS SQL Server Driver.

Well, if there's one in C or C++, there's also one in Python. And you
don't have to touch C(++) syntax even with rubber gloves to use it from
within Python.

The fact that no Python developer has met the requirement to wrap it in
a static DB-API-compliant module so far, just says a lot about the
usefulness of MS SQL Server for Python developers. Most of which are
people who tend to choose very carefully the tools they use.

And for those who don't mind paying a ridiculous amount of money for a
db server that does less than what Postgres does for free, there's
always mxodbc.

>  No good PDF reading libraries.

Statement above applies. Plus any kind of COM component or scriptable
x application, as they're all usable from within Python.

Anyway, I seriously doubt that, as I know of at least one excellent
"native Python" DB->PDF _creation_ module.

> I love python alot, heck I wrote a whole web platform in it, but I'm
> under no illusions that it's much heavier that C++/Java or PHP.

None of those will be an option for the original poster, as he has
explicitly mentioned.

And none of those is able to "scale" across an application range as
wide as the one that Python does - by far.
  
> No offence of anything, but I've seen what non-professional
> programmers do in any language they get their hands on (Python, Java,
> Access/VBA), and for the most part, they should stick to their day
> job, and leave application development to people with good CS degrees
> who understand what they are doing (not that all CS graduates know
> what they are doing, they just have a better shot).

Sure.

According to you basically all of the applications that I know of as
being the "best of their breed" from personal experience through using
them on a daily basis to earn my living simply wouldn't exist - as they
have all been implemented by people who don't have a CS degree.

And I'm not talking about trendy webcrap, but things which are used
daily by _lots_ of people to get _actual work_ done.

Things like Framemaker, Catia, Simpack etc...

And, btw: http://learn.to/quote

End of flameware, subthread filtered.

Sincerely

Wolfgang Keller

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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Alex Turner]

No.1 Python does not scale well.

map x=new map();
vs
self.d={};

Python is 10x slower than C++ or Java.  If you do _any_ kind of OO
programming, python is _very_ slow.

I have implemented a great little web content engine based on Python
and XML using PyXML, and it has _serious_ problems with large pages. 
I've done alot of profiling work, and over 90% of the time is spend in
d={} and x=[] style calls.

No. 2. Python does not inteface with everything by a long shot
Case in point - no good native MS SQL Server Driver.  No good PDF
reading libraries.

I love python alot, heck I wrote a whole web platform in it, but I'm
under no illusions that it's much heavier that C++/Java or PHP. 
People using Zope have found the same things to be true when they ramp
up the load.

wxPython is seriously ruling, and you can create exe files with python
on windows too.  It's a contender, but it's not the King yet in my
book.

No offence of anything, but I've seen what non-professional
programmers do in any language they get their hands on (Python, Java,
Access/VBA), and for the most part, they should stick to their day
job, and leave application development to people with good CS degrees
who understand what they are doing (not that all CS graduates know
what they are doing, they just have a better shot).

[snip]
> 
> And  then  I heard about the existence of Python. The first language I
> learned voluntarily and the only one I'm still using. If Python didn't
> exist,  I  wouldn't  have  done  anything related to programming since
> university.  Just  as  I  wouldn't  use  computers out of work if Macs
> didn't exist.
> 
> > I  should  have  made  it  clear  that I am just a hobbyist teaching
> > myself in my spare time, for fun.
> 
> I'm  not  a  developer either. Nor am I using Python intensively in my
> job.
> 
> Despite  this  I'm  planning  to spend a week (during my vacation!) at
> Europython  this  year.  And  the trip there plus the registration fee
> will  cost me quite a bit of money - Sweden is expensive and not quite
> around the corner.
> 
> What is nice about Python especially for non-professional programmers:
> 
> -  it scales from trivial throw-away command-line scripts (<=> Delphi)
> to beyond what you will ever need (the GNUe project is implementing an
> ERP  system  with  it)
> -  it  interfaces  with  basically every kind of library, interface or
> whatever;  you  can  use COM on Windows (<=> Java), Applescript on the
> Mac  and  lots  of  open source applications use it as their scripting
> language
> 
> Consequently,  Python  alone is likely to get everything done that you
> will ever need in your whole life.
> 
[snip]

Alex Turner
netEconomist

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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Leif B. Kristensen]

On Tuesday 10 May 2005 14:34, vladimir wrote:
> > I remember the Borland of old that offered extraordinarily powerful
> > tools at a reasonable price.  Unfortunately, they are not the same
> > company they used to be.
>
> The freepascal + lazarus + ported ZeosDB could do the trick...

Yes, it could. I have recently had a look on Lazarus, but I'm totally 
exasperated about the lack of documentation -- and don't get me started 
on the Zeos. How the heck do you find the right version and install it 
on a Gentoo system?

Back in the old days, I actually did a lot of serious programming in 
Turbo Pascal. I was delighted to find Lazarus, but after breezing 
through the tutorial, I'm still at a total loss about how to actually 
use it with a database. Guess I'll stick with Python and Tkinter, as 
it's at least got some decent documentation.
-- 
Leif Biberg Kristensen
http://solumslekt.org/

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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[vladimir]

> I remember the Borland of old that offered extraordinarily powerful
> tools at a reasonable price.  Unfortunately, they are not the same
> company they used to be.

The freepascal + lazarus + ported ZeosDB could do the trick...

Vlad

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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Marco Colombo]

On Tue, 2005-05-10 at 01:51 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Wolfgang, thanks! I am very persuaded by your arguments regarding
> Python.  What you have written makes me look at Python in a different
> light.
>  
> I happened to find a download of Python2.2 which I installed at work
> but have not tried out.  I wish I could find detailed instructions on
> WHICH python to download from WHERE, and what I would need to download
> to access Postgresql from Python, and then some simple examples of
> sending a query to postgres and processing the results.

2.2? Latest python is 2.4.1.

First place to look at is obviously:
http://www.python.org/

see the Download section.

To access PostgreSQL from Python, you have some choices, pros and cons
have been already discussed on this list. Here's a partial list of
options:

http://www.druid.net/pygresql/
I've used this, happily, under Linux. It may be already included in the
PostgreSQL Windows port, I don't know.

http://initd.org/projects/psycopg1
I've used this too, happily, again under Linux. My programs where simple
enough that I could switch from one driver to the other w/o touching the
rest of the application, since I'm using the DBI 2.0 interface.
I have no idea if there's a Win port of this driver.

There are other drivers, but I haven't used them. Have a look at:
http://www.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=browse
(under the Database section).

For DBI, or DB-API, see: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0249.html
It's a reference manual and not a tutorial, and it's not PostgreSQL
specific.

While we're at it (and completely unrelated and off-topic) have a look
at:

http://www.pcpm.ucl.ac.be/~gustin/win32_ports/

> I would be perfectly happy to work with it in that funny DOS window, I
> would not require that it be Windows GUI app.  Just to be able to read
> and write to Postgresql.  Do you think there is such a 
> tutorial/documentation.

Python for Windows has a nice console window (IDLE I think).

You should be able to find some examples via Google.

.TM.
-- 
  /  /   /
 /  /   /   Marco Colombo
___/  ___  /   /  Technical Manager
   /  /   /  ESI s.r.l.
 _/ _/  _/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Daniel Schuchardt]

Arthur Hoogervorst schrieb:
Hi,
The company I work for actually uses the Zeos lib/Postgres extensively
to track the shipping and sales side for almost 3 years.
We're still running on a 7.2/7.4 Postgres database, because I haven't
been convinced yet to either update or upgrade to 8.x.x. I'm curious
if others have successfully moved their (production) database
successfully to Postgres 8.0.
Regards,
Arthur
On 5/9/05, Philippe Lang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 

Hi,
I'm testing Delphi 2005 at the moment, with ZEOS Lib (libpq), and I have to say 
it work fine, as Tony mentioned. I have a few questions:
1) I'm curious: are there a lot of big projects using ZEOS with PG or is that 
technology still relatively new? I would like to use it a replacement for ODBC, 
but I have no experience regarding its stability.
   

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Hy,
we use zeos too but the older version because of we found many problems 
in 6.X - Versions. I have fixes up many bugs in zeos 5.4 so it now works 
fine with postgres. All in all i have to say Zeos works but i'm not 
really happy with zeos because it seems not clear for if ut has a future.

What versions of Zeoslib do you use?
Do you use lo with zeos?
With Zeos 6.X you cannot use Postgresql - search path because 6.X 
Versions always wrote schema name before table name. 6.X does not 
support Cursor Fetch.
Components are very inefficient, every time you open a table all 
configuration / table meta data is fetched. No internal caching or sth 
like this.
Fields with unknown length are mapped wrong.
and so on-

Has anyone here tried Delphi dbexpress with www.vitavoom.com - dbexpress 
driver?
Has anyone tried .net - pgsql - driver with Delphi 2005?

All in all my opinion is that there is no really good solution to access 
Postgres from Delphi.

Are here many Delphi - Developers? Perhaps we should start a project at 
pgfoundry "PostgreSQL - Access for Delphi". I spend very much time to 
fix up Zeos-lib. So perhaps we can share.
(Last week i fixes a bug with "--" comment style for example; that style 
of comments wasnt accepted because ZeosLib deleted all #10#13 and so 
everything was a single line -> everything after "--" was a comment for PG)

Daniel.
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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Typing80wpm]

Wolfgang, thanks! I am very persuaded by your arguments regarding 
Python.  What you have written makes me look at Python in a different 
light.
 
I happened to find a download of Python2.2 which I installed at work but 
have not tried out.  I wish I could find detailed instructions on WHICH 
python to download from WHERE, and what I would need to download to access 
Postgresql from Python, and then some simple examples of sending a query to 
postgres and processing the results.  I would be perfectly happy to work 
with it in that funny DOS window, I would not require that it be Windows GUI 
app.  Just to be able to read and write to Postgresql.  Do you think 
there is such a tutorial/documentation.
 
Thanks!

Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Wolfgang Keller]

Hello,

> But I know from past experience that I am not going to make a lot of
> progress teaching myself any form of C language.

I  had to learn programming with Pascal at university first. It worked
for me.

Then  I  had  to  learn Fortran. Didn't like some things about it, but
still managed to get it to work.

Then  I  had  to  learn  C  and H-A-T-E-D it. Never used it and forgot
everyhing about it after the class' final test.

And  then  I heard about the existence of Python. The first language I
learned voluntarily and the only one I'm still using. If Python didn't
exist,  I  wouldn't  have  done  anything related to programming since
university.  Just  as  I  wouldn't  use  computers out of work if Macs
didn't exist.

> I  should  have  made  it  clear  that I am just a hobbyist teaching
> myself in my spare time, for fun.

I'm  not  a  developer either. Nor am I using Python intensively in my
job.

Despite  this  I'm  planning  to spend a week (during my vacation!) at
Europython  this  year.  And  the trip there plus the registration fee
will  cost me quite a bit of money - Sweden is expensive and not quite
around the corner.

What is nice about Python especially for non-professional programmers:

-  it scales from trivial throw-away command-line scripts (<=> Delphi)
to beyond what you will ever need (the GNUe project is implementing an
ERP  system  with  it)
-  it  interfaces  with  basically every kind of library, interface or
whatever;  you  can  use COM on Windows (<=> Java), Applescript on the
Mac  and  lots  of  open source applications use it as their scripting
language

Consequently,  Python  alone is likely to get everything done that you
will ever need in your whole life.

And  - Postgres suports it as a "second native" language for triggers,
stored procedures etc.

And  -  you  don't have to deal with memory management (you can "help"
the garbage collector by resolving cyclic references yourself, but you
don't have to)

> It  is  just too bad that there is not a better, more user friendly,
> well documented front-end tool for Postgresql in open source.

Err, you mean an IDE which allows to implement GUI applications (using
Postgres or not) easily?

For Python there are quite a few which use either wxPython or PyQt (or
GTK, but those are for Linux and *BSD).

One  using  wxyPthon  is  GNUe  designer, although it is unfortunately
badly (mostly un-)documented.

Black  Adder  is  an  example  for one using Qt. It even allows you to
build   not-open-source  applications  with  PyQt  due  to  a  special
licensing arrangement.

OpenOffice  forms  allow  to  do  nice things as well, with or without
Python  (via  PyUNO). In fact imho instead of implementing yet another
open-source  database  for  2.0,  they  should  just  have  included a
Postgresql (SDBC?) driver in OO.
 
> I guess MSAccess is fine, except expensive.

And  it's  REALLY  limited in what you can do (not just concerning the
amounts of data it can handle).

> Also,  given  the  fact  that  M$  has pulled the rug out from under
> Visual  Basic,  one can never be too certain what the future will be
> for something like MSAccess.

Won't  happen with Python. Even if Guido van Rossum would get run over
by  a  truck  tomorrow  (which  hopefully won't happen), it would keep
getting  developed,  because  it  has grown far to usefull for far too
many  people.  And  no MS, Sun, Oracle or whoever can pull the plug on
it. The same applies to wxWidgets.

> Even  the  world  of  Visual  Foxpro  has in some ways slowly eroded
> because of perennial rumors that Microsoft will withdraw support for
> it.

Some  ex-Visual  Foxpro  developers  are  currently  working  on a
replacement  called  Dabo  and  guess what they are using - Python and
wxWidgets.
 
> Perhaps  the stunning success of the Open Source community is fueled
> by  the  ruthless  and fickle nature of companies such as Microsoft.
> One  would  like  to build upon some foundation that is not going to
> disappear  in  a  few  years.  Realbasic  looks  like  an attractive
> alternative to Visual Basic, but then that is one lone company which
> is  riding  the  Tusnami of the Windows operating system (although I
> guess they are cross platform),

Beep - RealBasic was implemented on the Mac first. :-)

> but  the  point  is, whatever one chooses to learn, if it is tied to
> Windows, then its future is tied to the whims of Microsoft.
 
Not necessarily.

With Pyhon and wxWidgets or Qt, you can easily work on Windows, Linux,
*BSD  (and  MacOS  and  Windows CE and PalmOS and your series 60 Nokia
mobile  phone  and and and) today and not worry too much about whether
(and on what system) you'll be able to use it tomorrow.

Best regards

Wolfgang Keller

-- 
P.S.: My From-address is correct


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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Arthur Hoogervorst]

Hi,

The company I work for actually uses the Zeos lib/Postgres extensively
to track the shipping and sales side for almost 3 years.

We're still running on a 7.2/7.4 Postgres database, because I haven't
been convinced yet to either update or upgrade to 8.x.x. I'm curious
if others have successfully moved their (production) database
successfully to Postgres 8.0.


Regards,


Arthur

On 5/9/05, Philippe Lang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm testing Delphi 2005 at the moment, with ZEOS Lib (libpq), and I have to 
> say it work fine, as Tony mentioned. I have a few questions:
> 
> 1) I'm curious: are there a lot of big projects using ZEOS with PG or is that 
> technology still relatively new? I would like to use it a replacement for 
> ODBC, but I have no experience regarding its stability.
>

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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Philippe Lang]

Hi,

I'm testing Delphi 2005 at the moment, with ZEOS Lib (libpq), and I have to say 
it work fine, as Tony mentioned. I have a few questions:

1) I'm curious: are there a lot of big projects using ZEOS with PG or is that 
technology still relatively new? I would like to use it a replacement for ODBC, 
but I have no experience regarding its stability.

2) Is it possible to link Crystal Reports, the integrated reporting tool of 
Delphi 2005, to PG through ZEOS? I couldn't find how to do it...

3) ZEOS has support for the PG 7.4 protocol. Correct if I'm wrong, but the PG 
8.0 protocol is exactly the same, right?

4) Are there know limitations would should be aware of before when building a 
PG GUI with Delphi 2005 / ZEOS 6.5.1? Like uncompatible tools or things like 
that...


Thanks for your time!

Philippe


-Message d'origine-
De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] De la part de Tony Caduto
Envoyé : vendredi, 6. mai 2005 00:48
À : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc : pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Objet : Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...

If you call borland and tell them you want to do a competive upgrade for the 
old VB  you are using they will let you buy the upgrade to Delphi 2005 PRO.  
You have to ask.

Like I said before you get what you pay for and all this time you have been 
fooling around you could have just bought Delphi.
All the time you spent researching is actually costing someone money.

Not sure what you mean by this

> And several years ago, I had some experiences with people using 
> Delphi, and their database server that make me not so enthusiastic to 
> get involved... but I did want to give credit to Tony that his 
> arguments for using Delphi are convincing, if it were readily 
> available. And I do thank him for all his time and efforts to advise me.

Delphi has been superior to VB,Access etc since 1995 when version 1 came out.  
Version 1 had features that MS has only recently included in .net

I am just giving you good advice, I have been a developer for a long time and 
have used VB, C++, Assembly, Access etc and when I say Delphi is the best tool 
for creating win32 database apps, I mean it.
If Access or C# was better I would for sure be using it.

Also I have had good luck with Microolap, I use their postgresdac components, 
and guess what? That MySQL RAD thing they sell is created with.yep you 
guessed it Delphi.


--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com

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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Masse Jacques]

Could I invite java (and may be other languages) and the Eclipse Visual Editor 
as a new wrestler in the tournament?

http://www.eclipse.org/vep/

Jacques Massé

Diadfish: http://www.diadfish.org
PostgreSQL : http://www.postgresqlfr.org




> -Message d'origine-
> De : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Steve Atkins
> Envoyé : vendredi 6 mai 2005 01:55
> À : pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Objet : Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD
> 
> 
> broadcast)---
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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Shelby Cain]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  
> I was pleased with the progress I could make with Visual Basic and
> Postgresql, as well as what I could do through MS Access.  But it
> would be so nice to have something that paints screens quickly and
> allows one to develop things fast.  Powerbuilder was nice when I
> tried it some years ago.  I suppose if I do go to all the trouble to

I curious as to the limitations you are running up against where Visual
Basic (I'm assuming pre-.NET) and MS Access not RAD oriented enough for
you?

Have you tried SharpDevelop (free IDE for VB.Net and C#) + the free
.NET SDK from Microsoft?

> I realize that Tony Caduto may possibly encourage me to buy Delphi. 

I remember the Borland of old that offered extraordinarily powerful
tools at a reasonable price.  Unfortunately, they are not the same
company they used to be.

Regards,

Shelby Cain



Discover Yahoo! 
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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Chris Browne]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tony Caduto) writes:
> That's what was said 7 years ago. guess what it's still around
> and going strong.  This is one of the most ridiculous arguments
> against using Delphi, every year people like you say this, then 7
> years go by and your still wrong

I wasn't the one doing the evaluation back then.  I wasn't working
with Delphi then, didn't discard it then, and haven't discarded it
recently.

>>The problem with Delphi is that it is uncertain where it will stand
>>five and ten years down the road.

>>Killer question: Can you assume that apps you wrote two years ago
>>(with Delphi) will still be able to run on top of Longhorn?  If not,
>>that makes Delphi a dangerous choice.

> Apps created 9 years ago with Delphi 2 will run in Longhorn, hardly
> a dangerous choice, you also forgot to mention or don't know that
> Delphi 2005 ships with Delphi .net which means you can compile code
> native win32(single exes) or target .net.  it also ships with full
> C# support.  Bill Gates recently mentioned that 32bit support will
> be around for the next 50 years and MS products will have to support
> them.  Heck most of my Delphi apps work well under WINE on Linux...

Bill Gates also mentioned that "640K would be enough for anyone" and
wrote, in an evidently-not-well-enough-edited book, that "The obvious
mathematical breakthrough would be the development of an easy way to
factor large prime numbers."  There seems to be good reason to
"reserve trust" there.

>>There are those that would criticize it for it using Pascal; it's not
>>really worth going there...

> Thats easy to say for someone who has never used it

I was merely making an observation.  

There are those that will be critical about Delphi being based on the
Pascal language, which is a simple fact.  

It's not worth starting any battle on the subject; there are just too
many opinions out there on programming languages.

There's certainly a set of people falling into the "Real Programmers
Don't Use Pascal" 
camp, where the stated opinion is...

  "If you can't do it in Fortran, do it in assembly language. If you
  can't do it in assembly language, it isn't worth doing."

When Unix came along, which is not based on FORTRAN, it was still
observed that it might be not too bad for Real Programmers:

  "Even Unix might not be as bad on Real Programmers as it once
  was. The latest release of Unix has the potential of an operating
  system worthy of any Real Programmer-- two different and subtly
  incompatible user interfaces, an arcane and complicated teletype
  driver, virtual memory. If you ignore the fact that it's
  "structured", even 'C' programming can be appreciated by the Real
  Programmer: after all, there's no type checking, variable names are
  seven (ten? eight?) characters long, and the added bonus of the
  Pointer data type is thrown in-- like having the best parts of
  Fortran and assembly language in one place. (Not to mention some of
  the more creative uses for #define.)"

PostgreSQL obviously fits into the latter category ;-).
-- 
(format nil "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" "cbbrowne" "acm.org")
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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Tony Caduto]

They are if you are doing any of your research at work :-)
I started using Delphi for shareware/hobby products and while the 
initial investment was higher, I reap the benefits of a huge third party 
and open source component environment.
Lets see, say you need a syntax highlighting editor component for free, 
delphi has you covered with Synedit http://synedit.sourceforge.net/, say 
you want a very nice bocking TCP/IP client/server framework, again your 
covered (Synapse http://www.ararat.cz/synapse/), say you want a nice XP 
like tool bar component, Toolbar 2000 is there (www.jrsoftware.org)
along with Inno Setup (created with Delphi) and of course we can't 
forget about Zeos http://www.zeoslib.net

I could go on and on
You certainly don't need any staff behind you to use Delphi. I don't 
have a staffor a ton of spare cash
I bought Delphi 2005 back in December and I just finished paying it off 
a little each month, was it worth it? You better believe it...

Sounds like you invested in a Dell laptop or PC from prior posts, the 
same can be said for a nice profesional RAD IDE.
You need to make an investment, you get what you pay for.

Find a copy of Delphi 5 pro on ebay or whatever for cheap, then use it 
to get the upgrade.

 

We could go on and on about this, so this will be my last post on this 
subject.  If you do decide to go with Delphi let me know and I could 
provide some examples.

 
I should have made it clear that I am just a hobbyist teaching myself 
in my spare time, for fun.  Tony Caduto is worried that some employer 
is losing money because I wont purchase Delphi. But thanks Tony, for 
your good advice. And it IS good advice for someone with money and 
staff behind them to take that advice and make something productive 
happen.


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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Jeff Eckermann]

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> It is just too bad that there is not a better, more user friendly, well
> documented front-end tool for Postgresql in open source.  It really is 
> kind  of a
> marketing issue, in a way. I mean, if someone could really put together 
> some
> sort of  "Postgresql for Dummies" series with something like Rekall  for a
> front end with some REAL LIFE examples or projects that ACTUALLY DO 
> SOMETHING
> USEFUL, rather than just paint a form to go  first/last/next/add/save 
> if
> someone could put together something like THAT,  then, perhaps things 
> would
> really take off.  I dont know. Just a  thought.  All the ingredients and 
> raw
> materials are lying around just  waiting for someone to do that.
>
Hear, hear.  Speaking as another self-taught database user and programmer, I 
have a gripe about most (nearly all) books on programming, which don't (or 
else poorly) address questions like:
* What useful stuff can you do with this?
* Why was this technology (language etc.) invented, i.e. what problem was it 
designed to solve, and why is it better than competing technologies?
* What is the point of exotic feature xyz (i.e. what is it really there 
for)?
* How do you put together a working application that does something useful?

If anyone here can suggest books that really address those questions, I for 
one will be all ears. 



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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Tony Caduto]

That's what was said 7 years ago. guess what it's still around and 
going strong.
This is one of the most ridiculous arguments against using Delphi, every 
year people
like you say this, then 7 years go by and your still wrong

The problem with Delphi is that it is uncertain where it will stand
five and ten years down the road.
Killer question: Can you assume that apps you wrote two years ago
(with Delphi) will still be able to run on top of Longhorn?  If not,
that makes Delphi a dangerous choice.
 

Apps created 9 years ago with Delphi 2 will run in Longhorn, hardly a 
dangerous choice, you also
forgot to mention or don't know that Delphi 2005 ships with Delphi .net 
which means you can
compile code native win32(single exes) or target .net.  it also ships 
with full C# support.
Bill Gates recently mentioned that 32bit support will be around for the 
next 50 years and MS products will have to support
them.  Heck most of my Delphi apps work well under WINE on Linux...

There are those that would criticize it for it using Pascal; it's not
really worth going there...
 

Thats easy to say for someone who has never used it, maybe you should 
talk to the hundreds of VB 6 MVPs who are now
trying to sue M$ because they won't be supporting VB 6 anymore and 
VB.net is sooo different for them.
Pascal is a easy to use strongly typed language that can do just about 
anything C or C++ can do (except for drivers)
There are tons and tons of apps created in Delphi that can just blow you 
away, i.e. full RDBMS systems (nexusDB) many remote control
products(like PC anywhere), multitudes of IM servers and clients, C++ 
IDEs (http://wxdsgn.sourceforge.net/) etc etc.

And once again the whole point is that Delphi can create very functional 
GUI Database apps without writting a lot of code, and if you do want to 
write code you can, it gives you
the best of both worlds.  You can create FINISHED GUI DB apps in 20 
minutes in Delphi while the C# or Java guy is still writing code and you 
get all the Object Oriented goodness you could ever want, and it's been 
there since 1995, when VB could only dream about it.

This is not about being religious about any particular language, it's 
about using one that can bring a DB product/program together very fast 
with low to none dependencies
and deployment issues.  If C#, Python, Java would allow me to create GUI 
DB apps at the same speed and ease I would be all over it.
I use C# and Java for writing console applications where a advanced GUI 
is not needed and I have found that C# makes nice console apps that also 
work well on Linux via mono, and have several in production that import 
500,000+ records per day into a Postgresql database.

It looks a lot nicer when you know the FACTS.
Thanks,
Tony


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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Christopher Browne]

Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when [EMAIL PROTECTED] ("Zlatko Matic") 
wrote:
> It seems that many people fanatically recommend Delphi, while others
> fanaticaly despise Delphi. I've sent a question about comparative
> features of MS Access/Visual Studio/Delphi for working with
> databases to a newsgroup and people started to quarell instead of
> argumenting anything ! Interesting

The problem with Delphi is that it is uncertain where it will stand
five and ten years down the road.

Keep in mind that the bulk of the costs associated with deploying
custom applications have to do with ongoing maintenance.  You need the
ability to continue to deploy changes as "business requirements" (or
whatever is most akin, for non-business organizations) change.

Five years ago, I was hearing conversations where people were actively
migrating away from Delphi because of deep concerns as to whether
Borland would exist a year down the road.

To an extent, that has been proven wrong, as both Borland and Delphi
are still around.

However, the "severe dangers" to Borland certainly still exist.
Microsoft wants to cut them out as a Windows vendor; Microsoft would
rather you pay your "development tools" money to Microsoft for .NET
and the likes.  Microsoft is severely dangerous to them, in that
Microsoft controls what is in forthcoming versions of Windows, which
is doubtless why they have put some effort into Kylix, which is
essentially Delphi for Linux.

Killer question: Can you assume that apps you wrote two years ago
(with Delphi) will still be able to run on top of Longhorn?  If not,
that makes Delphi a dangerous choice.

There are those that would criticize it for it using Pascal; it's not
really worth going there...
-- 
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc"))
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/internet.html
"Oh, I've seen  copies [of Linux Journal] around  the terminal room at
The Labs."  -- Dennis Ritchie

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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Typing80wpm]

I suppose, with regard to the question of Delphi, one might simply line up 
and summarize or itemize all of the items and points PRO and CON.
 
One finds such PRO and CON lists for Postgresql vs MySQL vs Oracle, for 
Linux vs Windows,... for so many things.
 
But, its all analogous to an ocean voyage.  We all agree that voyages 
are exciting adventures. There are so many places which are exotic and romantic, 
where we would like to be (and anyplace always looks better to us then wherever 
we are at the moment).  And every voyage involves crossing the same ocean. 
The nature of the ocean and its risks is a constant, a universal, a 
given.   SO, in order to make our fantastic voyage, we pick out a 
popular, dependable ship to transport us to that exotic destination.
 
We look at the wonderful, solid ocean liner which we have chosen, the 
choice of many (we are in good company), and we see on the side of our vessel 
that it is called "The Titanic."   Well, history has 20/20 hindsight, 
and we all know only too well what happens to "The Titanic": it sinks.
 
So, we have an idea for a project, and application, some software. So, we 
choose a company, an operating system, a language, some hardware and 
technology.  But, then, even if it is the most wonderful hardware and 
software in the world, where will it be in ten years, in 20 years?
 
For so many years, AT&T, was tops, and part of the Standard and Poors 
Index (or some stock index, I forget).  But now, AT&T has fallen into 
second place, and Verizon has taken its place.  IBM and Xerox were at the 
top, but in some ways fell behind.  Bill Gates walked into Palo Alto for a 
tour, and stole aways the concept of Windows, and Networks and the Mouse, and 
all because the Xerox Company was a bunch of "copier-heads", and they could not 
see the value or potential of what they had.  I am citing these things from 
memory, from a documentary I saw, and perhaps I have confused a few 
things.
 
I am always forgetting the name of the inventor of Visicalc, the very first 
spreadsheet program. I had to google just now to remember. Dan Bricklin. Lotus 
Corp. finally bought him out for the sole purpose of shelving the competition. 
And then Lotus fell into the background in the face of M$ Excel.  Look at 
Steve Jobs, for that matter, building Apple up from a garage operation, then 
getting pushed out, and finally coming back to the help.  And when Jobs and 
Wozniak first approached Hewlett Packard with the idea of a computer kit for 
home computers, Hewlett-Packard thought it would be a fad, and not worth the 
effort.  My grandfather graduated as a chemist from Yale in 1899.  At 
one point, early in his career, he had a choice between three different jobs. 
One was with Remington repeating firearms, another was with the Pennsylvania 
Railroad, and the third was with some new-fangled thing called Polaroid.  
His old chemistry professor advised him to stay away from that Polaroid, since 
it was only a passing fad.  Had he gone in with Polariod on the ground 
floor, then with stock options, he might have been fabulously wealthy.
 
Look at all these vicissitudes, ups and downs.
 
So, where will Delphi be in ten years? What will support be like? Who 
knows?  But, if one is faced with some project that needs doing, then one 
must make some choice, some decision, and then go with it, live with 
it.   I suppose one comforting dependable thought is that SQL, 
Structured Query Language, is really here to stay. Gone are the days of 
proprietary database schemes and file structures.  You may not know who 
your vendor or provider will be for your SQL engine in ten years. Perhaps 
Oracle. Perhaps the open source community.  But you can feel fairly certain 
that SQL as a technology is here to stay.  Thank God something is 
dependable.  Titanics come and go, but the ocean is always the 
ocean.

Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Typing80wpm]

I am convinced that Tony Caduto is correct in everything he says about 
Delphi.
 
If you are with some Company, and you have your full time to devote to 
programming, and the support of a staff and a budget, why I am sure you can make 
anything work for you. If you throw enough time and money and manpower at any 
problem, you can solve it.
 
I knew a developer who developed the firewall product LOCKDOWN.  He 
told me he did it in Delphi, and he explained all the advantages of 
Delphi.
 
The real issue in my mind with any given language, or operating system or 
tool is "where will it be 10 years from now, or 20."    I used to 
program in the PICK system. That was an amazing language and OS to work in, but 
it was developed for dumb-ascii-terminals and really never seemed to make a 
transition to the Windows GUI world.  Revelation was an implimentation 
of PICK under DOS, which also never seemed to make a smooth transition to 
Windows/GUI, although they attemted to do so with a product called 
OpenInsight.  Look at the popularity of Ashton Tate DbaseIII, and then 
Foxpro which was bought out by Microsoft, in some ways, I suspect, to be shelved 
as competition.  Look at the tremendous popularity in the 1980s for Focus 
database manager.  Many companies sprang up with products and services 
developed in Focus.
 
Look at the vicissitudes of Borland's Interbase product, and those users 
who were devoted to it.  Look at the history of Novell, and the history of 
the Btrieve product, bought out by Novell, then neglected, then bought back by 
the original developers, then transmogrified to the point that original Btrieve 
enthusiasts were disillusioned and sought a rebirth/reformation with the Tsunami 
product.
 
Look at the rise and fall of Borland and Turbo Pascal.  
 
My point is simple, whatever one chooses to "go with", in order to lay a 
foundation for some software/programming effort-project,  well, a building 
is only as secure as the foundation upon which it rests.
 
I guess that is why open source is so popular. Even if the things in open 
source world are not as bright and shiney and glittering as some proprietary 
products, well. at least there is some hope that it will be there in years to 
come, ... some hope that you can take control of it, control of its 
direction and evolution.    
 
What is difficult to control is public opinion, and tastes, and popularity 
contests, and the technology of hardware and communications upon which such 
operating systems and languages function
 
Just thinking out loud...  thanks for listening... 

Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Typing80wpm]

Thanks, everyone,  for suggestions regarding QT.  I did find 
a good book on QT in the computer section of a bookstore and spent quite some 
time looking at it, the "hello world" exercise, and almost purchased it.  
But I know from past experience that I am not going to make a lot of progress 
teaching myself any form of C language.  I am able to make some progress in 
Basic dialects.   I was doing very well with Liberty Basic, but it 
just doesnt offer any easy or practical way to use SQL, other than some 
cumbersome schemes to call the dll for SQLite, and the dll for MSAccess mdb jet 
engine.  
 
I should have made it clear that I am just a hobbyist teaching myself in my 
spare time, for fun.  Tony Caduto is worried that some employer is losing 
money because I wont purchase Delphi. But thanks Tony, for your good advice. And 
it IS good advice for someone with money and staff behind them to take that 
advice and make something productive happen.
 
I just thought it would be worthwhile to share with Postgresql users how 
much more difficult and less intuitive I found the MySQL download/install for 
Windows to be compared to Postgresql Windows download/install.
 
I get the feeling that my best bet to make some progress teaching myself 
something new is to stick with MS Access, and to connect to Postgresql through 
ODBC.  There are so many books available on Access and VBA, and I purchased 
two of them.
 
I have a very old book on SQL called Lantimes SQL, and I think I will write 
some sql scripts to run in PostgresSQL to define and load the test tables in the 
back of that book. I have two books by Joe Celko on SQL as well, so if I just 
concentrate on such books, I can gain some fluency in SQL.
 
It is just too bad that there is not a better, more user friendly, well 
documented front-end tool for Postgresql in open source.  It really is kind 
of a marketing issue, in a way. I mean, if someone could really put together 
some sort of  "Postgresql for Dummies" series with something like Rekall 
for a front end with some REAL LIFE examples or projects that ACTUALLY DO 
SOMETHING USEFUL, rather than just paint a form to go 
first/last/next/add/save if someone could put together something like THAT, 
then, perhaps things would really take off.  I dont know. Just a 
thought.  All the ingredients and raw materials are lying around just 
waiting for someone to do that.
 
 
I guess MSAccess is fine, except expensive. Also, given the fact that M$ 
has pulled the rug out from under Visual Basic, one can never be too certain 
what the future will be for something like MSAccess.  Even the world of 
Visual Foxpro has in some ways slowly eroded because of perennial rumors that 
Microsoft will withdraw support for it.
 
Perhaps the stunning success of the Open Source community is fueled by the 
ruthless and fickle nature of companies such as Microsoft.  One would like 
to build upon some foundation that is not going to disappear in a few 
years.  Realbasic looks like an attractive alternative to Visual Basic, but 
then that is one lone company which is riding the Tusnami of the Windows 
operating system (although I guess they are cross platform), but the point is, 
whatever one chooses to learn, if it is tied to Windows, then its future is tied 
to the whims of Microsoft.
 
 

Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Zlatko Matic]

Hello.
It seems that many people fanatically recommend Delphi, while others 
fanaticaly despise Delphi. I've sent a question about comparative features 
of MS Access/Visual Studio/Delphi for working with databases to a newsgroup 
and people started to quarell instead of argumenting anything ! 
Interesting
I started to be involved in programming and databases two years ago when I 
got an idea for very specific project. First I had to learn about databses 
in general, from zero. As MS Office is widespread and present in my job, MS 
Access was logical decision. I started learning Access and VBA fanatically.
Now,  I feel that I'm ready for something more powerfull but don't know what 
to choose...I already started learning  VB.NET...There are also some 
freeware IDE for .NET, like SharpDevelop, for example.
But I would like to find some good and easy to use IDE that will be both 
powerfull enough for making proffessional aplications and easy to use as 
Access/VBA was...Also, it would be great if such IDE is both for Windows and 
Linux.
Is Delphi solution for me ?

- Original Message - 
From: "Tony Caduto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD


Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...
If you call borland and tell them you want to do a competive upgrade for 
the old VB  you are using
they will let you buy the upgrade to Delphi 2005 PRO.  You have to ask.

Like I said before you get what you pay for and all this time you have 
been fooling around you could have just bought Delphi.
All the time you spent researching is actually costing someone money.

Not sure what you mean by this
And several years ago, I had some experiences with people using Delphi, 
and their database server that make me not so enthusiastic to get 
involved... but I did want to give credit to Tony that his arguments for 
using Delphi are convincing, if it were readily available. And I do thank 
him for all his time and efforts to advise me.
Delphi has been superior to VB,Access etc since 1995 when version 1 came 
out.  Version 1 had features that MS has only
recently included in .net

I am just giving you good advice, I have been a developer for a long time 
and have used VB, C++, Assembly, Access etc and
when I say Delphi is the best tool for creating win32 database apps, I 
mean it.
If Access or C# was better I would for sure be using it.

Also I have had good luck with Microolap, I use their postgresdac 
components, and guess what? That MySQL RAD thing they sell
is created with.yep you guessed it Delphi.

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 5 May 2005, Tony Caduto wrote:
Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...
  I haven't used any Microsoft or Winduhs software for about eight years 
now,
but I beleive that you can get -- for free -- Qt for winduhs. If you do this,
you get the Qt Designer included. This is a GUI GUI developer; a RAD if you
wish. It works with C++ and with python (my lanuage of choice now). All these
tools are free.
Rich
--
Dr. Richard B. Shepard, President
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. (TM)
   Voice: 503-667-4517   Fax: 503-667-8863
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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Steve Atkins]

On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 04:28:43PM -0700, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Thu, 5 May 2005, Tony Caduto wrote:
> 
> >Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...
> 
>   I haven't used any Microsoft or Winduhs software for about eight years 
>   now,
> but I beleive that you can get -- for free -- Qt for winduhs. If you do 
> this,
> you get the Qt Designer included. This is a GUI GUI developer; a RAD if you
> wish. It works with C++ and with python (my lanuage of choice now). All 
> these
> tools are free.

/me uses Qt a lot

Qt is not exactly free for Windows right now. The current release
of Qt is 3.3.4. There is a learning Qt book available that includes
Qt/Windows 3.2.3 on CD under a fairly liberal license.

Qt 4 is in late beta, and will be available under something like
the GPL for Windows.

Qt has a very nice database abstraction that lets you access most
database features without needing to know the underlying database.
The disadvantage is that it's an abstraction. You can't access some
features using it, and if you're familiar with libpq, say, it feels a
little like working on something while wearing thick gloves.

Cheers,
  Steve


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Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[Tony Caduto]

Programmers Paradise has delphi in their catalogs...
If you call borland and tell them you want to do a competive upgrade for the 
old VB  you are using
they will let you buy the upgrade to Delphi 2005 PRO.  You have to ask.
Like I said before you get what you pay for and all this time you have been 
fooling around you could have just bought Delphi.
All the time you spent researching is actually costing someone money.
Not sure what you mean by this
And several years ago, I had some experiences 
with people using Delphi, and their database server that make me not so 
enthusiastic to get involved... but I did want to give credit to Tony 
that his arguments for using Delphi are convincing, if it were readily 
available. And I do thank him for all his time and efforts to advise me.
Delphi has been superior to VB,Access etc since 1995 when version 1 came 
out.  Version 1 had features that MS has only
recently included in .net
I am just giving you good advice, I have been a developer for a long time and 
have used VB, C++, Assembly, Access etc and
when I say Delphi is the best tool for creating win32 database apps, I mean it.
If Access or C# was better I would for sure be using it.
Also I have had good luck with Microolap, I use their postgresdac components, 
and guess what? That MySQL RAD thing they sell
is created with.yep you guessed it Delphi.
--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
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[GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

[typing80wpm]

http://www.microolap.com/products/database/mydbacentral/
 
I was hoping to find a GUI Rapid Application development for Postgresql similar to the above.  The above is the only thing I could find, but it seems to support only MySQL and not PostgreSQL.  I am so anxious to find such a tool, if it would be well documented and easy to use, that I decided to download MySQL to give it a try.  I am shocked to see how much more difficult it is to get MySQL going than it was to get PostgreSQL for Windows up and running.  I though I would share this bit of information.  I downloaded the Windows MySQL install from their official site, and it installed but did not leave me with any clear cut tool for Admin, to create tables.  I tried to attach to it from a different workstation (which I WAS successful in doing with Postgresql) using MySQL ODBC, BUT I got a message that the server would not allow my host name to connect.  
 
Google search yielded a solution
GRANT ALL PRIVILEGES on [dbname].* to '[user]'@'hostname]' identified by '[password]'
BUT
even though I could find their sql command line utility, I could not succeed in issuing the above command.
 
I was also shocked to see that they dont have a handy uninstall option. Google reveals that others have been puzzled by the absense of an uninstall, and one is simply advised to use Program ADD/Remove...  
 
I did do a WAMP install on a Windows 98 machine, and the MySQL worked fine and dandy on that machine, with an ADM utility to create tables.
 
 
I just wanted to share with you how very difficult MySQL is , for me at least, than PostgreSQL was.  
 
I am certain that if I go back to the bookstore and pick out one of those books with a CD in the back, that it will have the sort of install that I would need, and would give intelligible instructions as to how to get the thing off the ground.
 
I tried Rekall with Postgresql, and the tutorial/documention is so scanty, that I would be faced with hundreds of hours of struggle to make it do something.
 
I was pleased with the progress I could make with Visual Basic and Postgresql, as well as what I could do through MS Access.  But it would be so nice to have something that paints screens quickly and allows one to develop things fast.  Powerbuilder was nice when I tried it some years ago.  I suppose if I do go to all the trouble to get MySQL working, then I may find out that the above mentioned Russian RAD IDE is vapor ware, or not something that will work smoothly.  I am so surprised by the absense of such tools in general.
 
I realize that Tony Caduto may possibly encourage me to buy Delphi.  I really am totally convinced by his arguments and examples, and I instantly ran out to google to see where I could purchase Delphi for some reasonable, affordable price, but I definitely do not want to deal with something like E-Bay, nor do I want to but the $99 student version and then apply some undocumented patchs to make it do ODBC connections.  If I saw Delphi at something like Programmers Paradise, I might take an interest, but I do not.  And several years ago, I had some experiences with people using Delphi, and their database server that make me not so enthusiastic to get involved... but I did want to give credit to Tony that his arguments for using Delphi are convincing, if it were readily available. And I do thank him for all his time and efforts to advise me.