Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andrej Ricnik-Bay) writes: On 01/02/2008, Tony Caduto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The part about the BSD license is bogus. A BSD license is the most desirable of any Open Source license and gives you the right to use PostgreSQL in your commercial apps without worry. While I'm a big fan of the BSD license (for varied reasons) I think that OpenSource hardliners like RMS would argue that the BSD license is *NOT* in the true spirit of OpenSource *BECAUSE* of what you list as a bonus of it ... the locking down of benefits reaped from OpenSource not getting back into the stream. RMS wouldn't argue that, because he is uninterested in OpenSource. That's a term created/popularized by Eric Raymond, who is no friend of RMS. RMS is interested in free software, and considers various BSD-related licenses to be reasonable choices for free software. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html He'd prefer that people use the GPL, but I don't think there's anything overly hard line about the notion of the author of a license preferring it to others. It would seem mighty odd if he said something like I wrote the GPL, but think you should use the Foo License instead. -- cbbrowne,@,cbbrowne.com http://cbbrowne.com/info/linuxxian.html Jumping off a cliff doesn't kill you! It's only when you hit the ground... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Swaminathan Saikumar wrote: * Performance considerations: Inserts and Updates into the PostgreSql database is much slower compared to MySql. PostgreSql hosting thus might slow down the display of the web page online. * Availability of inferior Data Storage mechanism: PostgreSql uses Postgres storage system, which is not considered to be transaction sae during PostgreSql hosting. As many others have already pointed out that entire site is full of incorrect information. There are some potential performance issues on insert/update in PostgreSQL because the default (and only recommended) configuration makes sure that new transactions are committed to disk properly when they end. This can limit an individual client from being able to make more than 100 commits/second on typical PC hardware. But any other database that is configured for a similar level of robustness has the same problem. You can find a more useful comparison of PostgreSQL and MySQL at http://www.postgresql.org/docs/techdocs.83 -- * Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
Swaminathan Saikumar wrote: http://searchyourwebhost.com/web-hosting/articles/insight-database-hosting-using-sql Check out the link. I am starting out on a new personal project had zeroed in on PostGreSql with Mono-ASP.NET as ideal for my needs, mainly owing to a PostGreSql whitepaper. Now, I chanced upon the article above. I've pasted the cons as mentioned in the article, and would like the community feedback on it, especially with regards to the inferior Data Storage mechanism. The cons of PostgreSql Hosting * Performance considerations: Inserts and Updates into the PostgreSql database is much slower compared to MySql. PostgreSql hosting thus might slow down the display of the web page online. * BSD license issues: Since PostgreSql comes under the Berkeley license scheme, this is again considered to be too open. * Availability of inferior Data Storage mechanism: PostgreSql uses Postgres storage system, which is not considered to be transaction sae during PostgreSql hosting. * Its not far-flung: While MySql hosting and MSSql hosting have deeply penetrated into the market, PostgreSql hosting still remains to be passive in the database hosting market. * Non-availability of required assistance for PostgreSql hosting: Assistance is being provided via mailing lists. However there is no guarantee that the issue faced during PostgreSql hosting would be resolved. Those cons are seriously out of date. They apply to very old versions of PostgreSQL and even that is stretching it. The part about the BSD license is bogus. A BSD license is the most desirable of any Open Source license and gives you the right to use PostgreSQL in your commercial apps without worry. The part about inferior Data Storage mechanism is also flat out wrong. PostgreSQL uses a MVC system same as Oracle and it also has transaction logs,PITR etc. Inserts and updates will be slightly slower than a Non MVC system, but the human eye would not detect any difference in a web page displaying, we are talking about miliseconds. Who does massive amounts of inserts and updates from a web page anyway? I have CMS such as Drupal running on both PostgreSQL and MySQL and I can't tell the difference in the speed the pages render. The availability of assistance is also bogus as there are many ways to get support if you need it including commercial support companies and Enterprise DB, The mailing list is also very active and effective. The only part that has any truth to it is the far flung part, and MySQL is king there, it even dwarfs M$ SQL server. M$ SQL server is severely limited for hosting as well since it ONLY runs on windows and most hosting providers run some form of Unix where M$ cannot play at all. So in conclusion I would not pay attention to this article, it was written by someone who really does not know what they are talking about. Later, Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of Lightning Admin for PostgreSQL and MySQL ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
On 01/02/2008, Tony Caduto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The part about the BSD license is bogus. A BSD license is the most desirable of any Open Source license and gives you the right to use PostgreSQL in your commercial apps without worry. While I'm a big fan of the BSD license (for varied reasons) I think that OpenSource hardliners like RMS would argue that the BSD license is *NOT* in the true spirit of OpenSource *BECAUSE* of what you list as a bonus of it ... the locking down of benefits reaped from OpenSource not getting back into the stream. Cheers, Andrej -- Please don't top post, and don't use HTML e-Mail :} Make your quotes concise. http://www.american.edu/econ/notes/htmlmail.htm ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:04:53 +1300 Andrej Ricnik-Bay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 01/02/2008, Tony Caduto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The part about the BSD license is bogus. A BSD license is the most desirable of any Open Source license and gives you the right to use PostgreSQL in your commercial apps without worry. While I'm a big fan of the BSD license (for varied reasons) I think that OpenSource hardliners like RMS would argue that the BSD license is *NOT* in the true spirit of OpenSource *BECAUSE* of what you list as a bonus of it ... the locking down of benefits reaped from OpenSource not getting back into the stream. RMS wouldn't make any such argument at all. His argument would be centered around FREE not OpenSource software. Joshua D. Drake Cheers, Andrej - -- The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHonjaATb/zqfZUUQRAjfrAKCZu2KZigaCrNT6c9nbuAFYImRhdQCeI4uT 2gdMn7CA9XExIynw5mFogBs= =pqTR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
Andrej Ricnik-Bay [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 01/02/2008, Tony Caduto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The part about the BSD license is bogus. A BSD license is the most desirable of any Open Source license and gives you the right to use PostgreSQL in your commercial apps without worry. While I'm a big fan of the BSD license (for varied reasons) I think that OpenSource hardliners like RMS would argue that the BSD license is *NOT* in the true spirit of OpenSource *BECAUSE* of what you list as a bonus of it ... the locking down of benefits reaped from OpenSource not getting back into the stream. The quoted article knocked *both* GPL and BSD as being too open. Too open for whom, he didn't say. The rest of the article is at about the same quality level :-( I have seldom seen such a sterling example of cluelessness combined with FUD-spouting. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
[GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
Hi all, I'm new to PostGreSql. http://searchyourwebhost.com/web-hosting/articles/insight-database-hosting-using-sql Check out the link. I am starting out on a new personal project had zeroed in on PostGreSql with Mono-ASP.NET as ideal for my needs, mainly owing to a PostGreSql whitepaper. Now, I chanced upon the article above. I've pasted the cons as mentioned in the article, and would like the community feedback on it, especially with regards to the inferior Data Storage mechanism. The cons of PostgreSql Hosting * Performance considerations: Inserts and Updates into the PostgreSql database is much slower compared to MySql. PostgreSql hosting thus might slow down the display of the web page online. * BSD license issues: Since PostgreSql comes under the Berkeley license scheme, this is again considered to be too open. * Availability of inferior Data Storage mechanism: PostgreSql uses Postgres storage system, which is not considered to be transaction sae during PostgreSql hosting. * Its not far-flung: While MySql hosting and MSSql hosting have deeply penetrated into the market, PostgreSql hosting still remains to be passive in the database hosting market. * Non-availability of required assistance for PostgreSql hosting: Assistance is being provided via mailing lists. However there is no guarantee that the issue faced during PostgreSql hosting would be resolved. Thanks!
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:11:05 -0800 Swaminathan Saikumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm new to PostGreSql. http://searchyourwebhost.com/web-hosting/articles/insight-database-hosting-using-sql The cons of PostgreSql Hosting * Performance considerations: Inserts and Updates into the PostgreSql database is much slower compared to MySql. PostgreSql hosting thus might slow down the display of the web page online. Not when data integrity comes into play. * BSD license issues: Since PostgreSql comes under the Berkeley license scheme, this is again considered to be too open. Exactly how is too open a bad thing? * Availability of inferior Data Storage mechanism: PostgreSql uses Postgres storage system, which is not considered to be transaction sae during PostgreSql hosting. Uhmm that is a blatant lie. * Its not far-flung: While MySql hosting and MSSql hosting have deeply penetrated into the market, PostgreSql hosting still remains to be passive in the database hosting market. I know many postgresql hosting companies. * Non-availability of required assistance for PostgreSql hosting: Assistance is being provided via mailing lists. However there is no guarantee that the issue faced during PostgreSql hosting would be resolved. Say what? http://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake Thanks! - -- The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHoREhATb/zqfZUUQRAkRpAJ9gdQAwmWsXPNlut0DJ8/mNgzmytQCdEd8M 0kBugrvVLkPSH4VWBtKYUUE= =vqnc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
--- On Wed, 1/30/08, Swaminathan Saikumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The cons of PostgreSql Hosting * Performance considerations: Inserts and Updates into the PostgreSql database is much slower compared to MySql. PostgreSql hosting thus might slow down the display of the web page online. ... might slow down ... I guess they didn't check to know one way or ther other whether It does slow down a web page. The real answer depends upon your they kind of uses you have. * BSD license issues: Since PostgreSql comes under the Berkeley license scheme, this is again considered to be too open. What does too open mean? Is too open a bad thing? * Availability of inferior Data Storage mechanism: PostgreSql uses Postgres storage system, which is not considered to be transaction sae during PostgreSql hosting. It seems they misspelled safe. But in either case they also seemed to have confused MySQL with PostgreSQL on this point. Being transactionally safe is one of PostgreSQL's strongest points. * Its not far-flung: While MySql hosting and MSSql hosting have deeply penetrated into the market, PostgreSql hosting still remains to be passive in the database hosting market. My gut says that this is probably true. But there are very good hosting sites that provide PostgreSQL. * Non-availability of required assistance for PostgreSQL hosting: Assistance is being provided via mailing lists. However there is no guarantee that the issue faced during PostgreSQL hosting would be resolved. If you have a highly critical application that requires guaranteed assistance you are more than able to purchase it from some top notch consultant companies that support PostgreSQL. Just check out the PostgreSQL home page. So I don't this this point is correct either. If you don't get too much feed back on this subject, just remember that topics like this come up frequently to the point of list member exhaustion. You can find such discussions if you search the list archive. Regards, Richard Broersma Jr. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
Swaminathan Saikumar wrote: Hi all, I'm new to PostGreSql. http://searchyourwebhost.com/web-hosting/articles/insight-database-hosting-using-sql What a wonderful article - it's almost worth keeping a copy. It's so bad it's difficult to know where to start. I think my favourite has to be : + MSSql being massive is considered to have the maximum scalability for database hosting. And I just love the comment on both MySQL and Postgres about GPL and BSD being 'too open' - meaning? Pete Check out the link. I am starting out on a new personal project had zeroed in on PostGreSql with Mono-ASP.NET as ideal for my needs, mainly owing to a PostGreSql whitepaper. Now, I chanced upon the article above. I've pasted the cons as mentioned in the article, and would like the community feedback on it, especially with regards to the inferior Data Storage mechanism. The cons of PostgreSql Hosting * Performance considerations: Inserts and Updates into the PostgreSql database is much slower compared to MySql. PostgreSql hosting thus might slow down the display of the web page online. * BSD license issues: Since PostgreSql comes under the Berkeley license scheme, this is again considered to be too open. * Availability of inferior Data Storage mechanism: PostgreSql uses Postgres storage system, which is not considered to be transaction sae during PostgreSql hosting. * Its not far-flung: While MySql hosting and MSSql hosting have deeply penetrated into the market, PostgreSql hosting still remains to be passive in the database hosting market. * Non-availability of required assistance for PostgreSql hosting: Assistance is being provided via mailing lists. However there is no guarantee that the issue faced during PostgreSql hosting would be resolved. Thanks! ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
On Jan 30, 2008 5:11 PM, Swaminathan Saikumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm new to PostGreSql. http://searchyourwebhost.com/web-hosting/articles/insight-database-hosting-using-sql I just skimmed through that page and honestly, it's wrong on LOTS of counts, again and again. For instance, about mysql it has these two contradicting points: QUOTE: Pros: Availability of Superior Data Storage mechanism: Though prior versions of MySql supported ISAM/MyISAM mechanisms, later versions starting from 4.x have started using the InnoDB mechanism, which is considered to be transaction safe for database hosting. Cons: Presence of Inferior Data Integrity mechanism: Though MySql is ACID (Atomic, Consistent, Isolated, Durable) complaint, when dealing with deadlocks in database hosting, it uses row-level locking which is considered to be inferior when compared to Multi Version Concurrency Control (MVCC). UNQUOTE: OK, while I hardly consider InnoDB to be superior to PostgreSQL's storage engine, it uses MVCC for its locking mechanism! But, MySQL really isn't capable of true ACID compliance because it as a whole doesn't support check constraints, but it accepts the syntax without actually implementing the feature. I read one, and it seems like many of the entries don't even make sense. This one for MSSQL for instance: QUOTE: Pros: Remarkable Reliability: MSSQL hosting offers high reliability by having a data manager for reading and writing data to the database. Even if the client machine crashes, the read and write is not committed in the database by the data manager. The transaction logs also help in rollbacks thus paving way to commendable reliability in MSSql hosting. UNQUOTE: WHAT? What does that mean? And how does it imply superior reliability? I can't see any of that meaning MSSQL stays up longer than any other database. Seriously, if I were interviewing someone for a db job, and they pointed out that they wrote that page I would politely decline to hire them. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
On Jan 30, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Richard Broersma Jr wrote: If you don't get too much feed back on this subject, just remember that topics like this come up frequently to the point of list member exhaustion. You can find such discussions if you search the list archive. Too true. There's only so many times people can be confronted with Defend yourselves! before they start ignoring it. On the flip side, when you approach with Tell me, what advantages does Postgres have to offer? you'll find many people all too willing to step up with pride. Erik Jones DBA | Emma® [EMAIL PROTECTED] 800.595.4401 or 615.292.5888 615.292.0777 (fax) Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate market in style. Visit us online at http://www.myemma.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
Thanks everyone. After all the good things I heard about Postgres, I was surprised to see this article; and the point on storage concerned me. I am glad to see that the article was wrong, not only on the storage engine count, but also on others. Thanks for the feedback. On 1/30/08, Erik Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 30, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Richard Broersma Jr wrote: If you don't get too much feed back on this subject, just remember that topics like this come up frequently to the point of list member exhaustion. You can find such discussions if you search the list archive. Too true. There's only so many times people can be confronted with Defend yourselves! before they start ignoring it. On the flip side, when you approach with Tell me, what advantages does Postgres have to offer? you'll find many people all too willing to step up with pride. Erik Jones DBA | Emma(R) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 800.595.4401 or 615.292.5888 615.292.0777 (fax) Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate market in style. Visit us online at http://www.myemma.com
Re: [GENERAL] Is PostGreSql's Data storage mechanism inferior?
On Jan 30, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Swaminathan Saikumar wrote: Hi all, I'm new to PostGreSql. http://searchyourwebhost.com/web-hosting/articles/insight-database- hosting-using-sql Check out the link. I am starting out on a new personal project had zeroed in on PostGreSql with Mono-ASP.NET as ideal for my needs, mainly owing to a PostGreSql whitepaper. Now, I chanced upon the article above. I've pasted the cons as mentioned in the article, and would like the community feedback on it, especially with regards to the inferior Data Storage mechanism. The cons of PostgreSql Hosting * Performance considerations: Inserts and Updates into the PostgreSql database is much slower compared to MySql. PostgreSql hosting thus might slow down the display of the web page online. Not for inserts. For updates, nder some workloads, possibly. A typical website run on a hosted server, not likely. While you might be able to clock single instances of these operations on each of those databases against each other (and, I emphasize *might*) and have MySQL come out on top, MySQL is the often demonstrated loser when you want to scale out and process hundreds to thousands at once. Isn't that what you're shooting for with a web app? * BSD license issues: Since PostgreSql comes under the Berkeley license scheme, this is again considered to be too open. What does that even mean? * Availability of inferior Data Storage mechanism: PostgreSql uses Postgres storage system, which is not considered to be transaction sae during PostgreSql hosting. What I *think* they're getting at there is pure nonsense. In fact, the sentence itself is nonsensical. * Its not far-flung: While MySql hosting and MSSql hosting have deeply penetrated into the market, PostgreSql hosting still remains to be passive in the database hosting market. While I'll admit that MySQL hosting is more widespread, calling Postgres hosting passive has no meaning whatsoever. * Non-availability of required assistance for PostgreSql hosting: Assistance is being provided via mailing lists. However there is no guarantee that the issue faced during PostgreSql hosting would be resolved. You pay for what you get, i.e there are numerous commercial companies that offer both paid support and consulting. For free, as mentioned, you have the lists which are, incidentally, much better that the free options available to most other technologies. Watch this list for a bit, hardly a week goes by without at least one or two people professing the support and general help gleaned from it's participants as their primary decision to go with Postgres. Basically, the person who made that list pulled a bunch of bullet points out of the FUD-mosphere that barely make sense as English sentences and offered them up without a shred of evidence or reference. Erik Jones DBA | Emma® [EMAIL PROTECTED] 800.595.4401 or 615.292.5888 615.292.0777 (fax) Emma helps organizations everywhere communicate market in style. Visit us online at http://www.myemma.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
