Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On 2012-10-17, Vincent Veyron vv.li...@wanadoo.fr wrote: I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's content every day. Best training material ever in my opinion. Yeah, if you want to learn PostgreSQL this list, the sql list, and the novice list will provide both answers and example problems. -- ⚂⚃ 100% natural -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Jasen Betts ja...@xnet.co.nz wrote: On 2012-10-17, Vincent Veyron vv.li...@wanadoo.fr wrote: I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's content every day. Best training material ever in my opinion. Yeah, if you want to learn PostgreSQL this list, the sql list, and the novice list will provide both answers and example problems. I would add I have learned a tremendous amount from the performance list as well. But beyond that just participating in the discussions here one learns a lot, same with reading Bruce's presentations and other good documentation. That doesn't mean it is always easy to fit pieces together but it takes time. I have also occasionally had important aha! moments reading planet.postgresql.org also. Part of the issue of course is that performance tuning often requires a decent understanding of lower-level aspects to what the database is actually doing. The database goes to great efforts to be fast and the question is always what it is doing that you can help speed up. Best Wishes, Chris Travers
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's content every day. Best training material ever in my opinion. -- Vincent Veyron http://marica.fr/ Logiciel de gestion des assurances sinistres et des dossiers contentieux pour le service juridique -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Vincent Veyron vv.li...@wanadoo.fr wrote: I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's content every day. Best training material ever in my opinion. A pay-for magazine you can probably claim on your taxes as a necessary expense. Is it possible somehow to claim that reading this list is vital to your work, and therefore the 5 hours a week you spend answering other threads (in order to repay the community) is a legitimate work expense? :) ChrisA -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:56 AM, Vincent Veyron vv.li...@wanadoo.fr wrote: I am surprised none of the fine contributors to this thread mentionned an activity they practice extensively, which is reading this list's content every day. Best training material ever in my opinion. A pay-for magazine you can probably claim on your taxes as a necessary expense. Is it possible somehow to claim that reading this list is vital to your work, and therefore the 5 hours a week you spend answering other threads (in order to repay the community) is a legitimate work expense? :) I've been on more than one job interview where the guy interviewing me is someone who's question I've answered in the past here. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
Le jeudi 18 octobre 2012 à 01:42 +1100, Chris Angelico a écrit : Is it possible somehow to claim that reading this list is vital to your work, and therefore the 5 hours a week you spend answering other threads (in order to repay the community) is a legitimate work expense? :) The ratio of benefits to costs in my case is close to infinity : I have no formal training in computer programming, so I learned practically everything on lists (plus a few books and a lot of documentation), and have been making a leaving out of it for fifteen years. I consider it essential to read them, to see what are real life situations and the usually numerous possible answers, many of which one person would not know about; it's like training for a professional athlete, and one has to practice every day. Also, on numerous occasions, some thread I followed out of interest lead me to a very suitable solution for a problem at hand within the next few days of work : many hours were saved that way. I could go on, but in short vital is the right word I'd say. (I'll just mention that I am in constant awe at the level of expertise dispensed in this particular list) -- Vincent Veyron http://marica.fr/ Logiciel de gestion des assurances sinistres et des dossiers contentieux pour le service juridique -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
[GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
Hi pgsql-general, I'm looking for advice on good training courses for PostgreSQL (on- or off-site, on- or off-line). I'm hoping to find something that can cover basic administration, performance optimization topics, and clustering tools like Slony and pgpool for someone. I realize that PostgreSQL documentation is a great resource, but I'm looking for something more intensive and expert-driven. Do any of you have recommendations based on courses you took, had colleagues take, or teach yourself? Thanks in advance, Matt Kappel -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves reasonably enough into detail where needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool). best regards, Thalis K. On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Matthew Kappel mkap...@cray.com wrote: Hi pgsql-general, I'm looking for advice on good training courses for PostgreSQL (on- or off-site, on- or off-line). I'm hoping to find something that can cover basic administration, performance optimization topics, and clustering tools like Slony and pgpool for someone. I realize that PostgreSQL documentation is a great resource, but I'm looking for something more intensive and expert-driven. Do any of you have recommendations based on courses you took, had colleagues take, or teach yourself? Thanks in advance, Matt Kappel -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:53:14PM -0300, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote: I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves reasonably enough into detail where needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool). I think the big thing the training manual is missing is giving inexperienced users a framework to understand all the pieces. Training does help in that area, and I am unclear how we could improve the manual to address that. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. + -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:34:37PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:53:14PM -0300, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote: I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves reasonably enough into detail where needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool). I think the big thing the training manual is missing is giving inexperienced users a framework to understand all the pieces. Training does help in that area, and I am unclear how we could improve the manual to address that. As a disclaimer, I should add that I do training for EnterpriseDB. I think the communication of a mental framework in understanding Postgres is one of the most valuable things I can give students. I think my presentations have a similar focus: http://momjian.us/main/presentations/ -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. + -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
True about the lack of framework putting the pieces together and providing an overview. Also IMHO another difficulty the manual poses is that the reader doesn't have a way to confirm his level of understanding after reading a chapter. Letting aside the concepts for which creating a scenario/test-case are downright complex, hard to reproduce or dependent on a per-installation basis, the learning experience could greatly benefit from a pg-tailored QA section at the end of each chapter. Perhaps even a downloadable test database to play with? And not wanting to just be lighting fires here, I'd be happy to volunteer. Now I'd understand the Pg manual writers being reluctant about shifting from manual to DB-book, but I'm guessing, the manual being as well written as it is, that many of us are already using it as a learning book anyway. best regards, Thalis K. On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:34:37PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 02:53:14PM -0300, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote: I assume the EntrerpriseDB certification seminars are an obvious quick answer: http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/training/dba-training But TBH, I find the PostgreSQL manual to be an excelent guide if you don't mind reading. It is extremely well written (kudos to whoever is on the writing team), definitely written by experts, it delves reasonably enough into detail where needed and most of all: it serves not only as a Pg manual, but as a DB theory/good practice manual as well. I realize that 2.8Kpages is not easy to digest, but the first 30 Chapters seem to cover more than enough to just get you started (though not Slony/pgpool). I think the big thing the training manual is missing is giving inexperienced users a framework to understand all the pieces. Training does help in that area, and I am unclear how we could improve the manual to address that. As a disclaimer, I should add that I do training for EnterpriseDB. I think the communication of a mental framework in understanding Postgres is one of the most valuable things I can give students. I think my presentations have a similar focus: http://momjian.us/main/presentations/ -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. + -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
-Original Message- From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general- ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Thalis Kalfigkopoulos Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:24 PM To: Bruce Momjian Cc: Matthew Kappel; pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations? True about the lack of framework putting the pieces together and providing an overview. Also IMHO another difficulty the manual poses is that the reader doesn't have a way to confirm his level of understanding after reading a chapter. Letting aside the concepts for which creating a scenario/test-case are downright complex, hard to reproduce or dependent on a per-installation basis, the learning experience could greatly benefit from a pg-tailored QA section at the end of each chapter. Perhaps even a downloadable test database to play with? And not wanting to just be lighting fires here, I'd be happy to volunteer. Now I'd understand the Pg manual writers being reluctant about shifting from manual to DB-book, but I'm guessing, the manual being as well written as it is, that many of us are already using it as a learning book anyway. best regards, Thalis K. Thalis, please do not top-post; especially when others have already bottom-posted before you. IMO writing and maintaining educational/training materials is a somewhat different skill set and focus than writing and maintaining technical documentation. They have their own timelines and needs and the gatekeepers for the documentation are not necessarily the best people to gatekeep educational materials. There are many different ideas out there - both content/format as well as pricing models. For better and worse the PostgreSQL core community does not attempt to play favorites or provide recommendations or a centralized database of what is out there. The wiki and FAQ extend what is provided for in the documentation somewhat but on the whole it is a very loose coalition. Such decentralization, combined with very little spare capacity of PostgreSQL skilled persons, makes getting started from scratch a difficult proposition. Aside from all of that the documentation is written in SGML thus making contributing that much more difficult. If you are interested in volunteering then just do it. Develop content and then work with the community to determine how to best integrate it with the existing materials out there or at worse see if someone will host it for you. David J. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 16:24:08 -0300, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos tkalf...@gmail.com wrote: Also IMHO another difficulty the manual poses is that the reader doesn't have a way to confirm his level of understanding after reading a chapter. It isn't too hard to play with a toy database. I personally found (and still find) the Postgres manual to be a great resource for learning SQL. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL training recommendations?
On 10/16/12 3:24 PM, Thalis Kalfigkopoulos wrote: Now I'd understand the Pg manual writers being reluctant about shifting from manual to DB-book, but I'm guessing, the manual being as well written as it is, that many of us are already using it as a learning book anyway. The official manual is a reference manual that also includes some good tutorial material. Just trying to cover that depth well, it's already so large as to be cumbersome--both from the perspective of new readers and the people maintaining it. Expecting to expand its scope even further toward the tutorial and example side is not something I'd expect to gain much traction. Every example that appears in the manual is yet another place for the documentation to break when code changes are made. And it's the same group of people maintaining both the documentation and the code. Anyone who tries to rev up adding even more docs is going to pull focus off new code. Would you like the core features to expand or to get a new type of documentation? The way things are organized right now, you can't get both. I would say that it's easier to write 400 pages of material outside of the manual and distribute them to the world than to add 40 pages to the official manual. And I say that as someone who tried wandering down both paths to see which was more productive. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www.2ndQuadrant.com -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
