Re: [GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
Hi Martijn, hi Greg, thanks you very much for your help. We finally got rid of these annoying spikes. First we tried to set checkpoint_segments = 3# before 16 checkpoint_timeout = 5min # before: 60min which didn't really help. we had the same spikes but more often. Then we tried to lower dirty_writeback_centisecs from 500 to 100 This helped a little bit, but we investigated this problem further. we monitored "Dirty" memory from /proc/meminfo and we saw very long query durations (>5s, sometimes 10s and more) correlating with the kernel writing out Dirty buffer. When we saw a massive reduction in "Dirty" memory, there were spikes in the query duration. As long as the kernel didn't write out the dirty memory, everything did run fine. So finally we tried echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/dirty_background_ratio and now everything runs very smooth. We see a few longer query durations over 2 seconds but no more spikes of 5 or 10 seconds. Our average response time from our our tomcat servers suddenly dropped from 300ms to 100ms. Great!! We know that our limitation is cheap disks, but with /dirty_background_ratio = 0 you really have big advantages and much better performance. So for further reference for other people reading this thread, I really recommend trying this out. best regards Janning On Friday 11 June 2010 21:48:54 Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: > On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 04:00:54PM -0400, Greg Smith wrote: > >> 5. Does anybody know if I can set dirty_background_ratio to 0.5? As we > >> have 12 GB RAM and rather slow disks 0,5% would result in a maximum of > >> 61MB dirty pages. > > > > Nope. Linux has absolutely terrible controls for this critical > > performance parameter. The sort of multi-second spikes you're seeing > > are extremely common and very difficult to get rid of. > > Another relevent parameter is /proc/sys/vm/dirty_writeback_centisecs. > By default linux only wakes up once every 5 seconds to check if there > is stuff to write out. I have found that reducing this tends to smooth > out bursty spikes. However, see: > > http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/content/linux-pdflush.htm > > which indicates that kernel may try to defeat you here... > > Have a nice day, -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 04:00:54PM -0400, Greg Smith wrote: >> 5. Does anybody know if I can set dirty_background_ratio to 0.5? As we >> have 12 GB RAM and rather slow disks 0,5% would result in a maximum of >> 61MB dirty pages. > > Nope. Linux has absolutely terrible controls for this critical > performance parameter. The sort of multi-second spikes you're seeing > are extremely common and very difficult to get rid of. Another relevent parameter is /proc/sys/vm/dirty_writeback_centisecs. By default linux only wakes up once every 5 seconds to check if there is stuff to write out. I have found that reducing this tends to smooth out bursty spikes. However, see: http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/content/linux-pdflush.htm which indicates that kernel may try to defeat you here... Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout http://svana.org/kleptog/ > Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, > when hate for people other than your own comes first. > - Charles de Gaulle signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
Janning wrote: most docs I found relates to 8.2 and 8.3. In Things of checkpoints, is 8.4 comparable to 8.3? It would be nice if you update your article to reflect 8.4 There haven't been any changes made in this area since 8.3, that's why there's been no update. 8.4 and 9.0 have exactly the same checkpoint behavior and background writer behavior as 8.3 from the perspective of regular use. The changes made only impact how things happen on a replication standby, not the master server. -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support g...@2ndquadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.us -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
On Thursday 10 June 2010 22:00:54 Greg Smith wrote: > Janning wrote: > > 1. With raising checkpoint_timeout, is there any downgrade other than > > slower after-crash recovery? > > Checkpoint spikes happen when too much I/O has been saved up for > checkpoint time than the server can handle. While this is normally > handled by the checkpoint spreading logic, you may find that with your > limited disk configuration there's no other way to handle the problem > but to make checkpoints much more frequent, rather than slower. Uhh! I had so much success with less frequent checkpoints. At least the spike is the same but it does not happen so often. > At > http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/content/postgresql/chkp-bgw-83.htm I > write about how you had to tune PostgreSQL 8.0 to 8.2 in order to keep > checkpoint spikes from getting too big. You may have to follow those > same techniques for your server. Just don't try to increase the > background writer settings in your case--the 8.3 one is different enough > that you can't tune that the way was suggested for 8.2. we are runing 8.4 and of course I read your article. I just raised bgwriter_lru_maxpage to 200 :-( most docs I found relates to 8.2 and 8.3. In Things of checkpoints, is 8.4 comparable to 8.3? It would be nice if you update your article to reflect 8.4. > > 2. Is there a way to calculate the after-crash recovery time with a > > certain checkpoint_timeout? How long would be approx. for a > > checkpoint_timeout of 60 minutes? > > Simulate it. No way to estimate. Ok. won't try it now :-) > > 3. Is it sane to set checkpoint_timeout to 120min or even to 600min? > > Checkpoints happen when you reach either checkpoint_segments of WAL > written *or* reach checkpoint_timeout, whichever happens first. Sorry the question was not precise. I already raised checkpoint_segments to reach that goal of less frequent checkpoints. > You'd > have to set both to extremely large values to get checkpoints to happen > really infrequently. Which I suspect is the exactly opposite of what > you want--you can't handle the spike from a long delayed checkpoint, and > probably want to tune for shorter and smaller ones instead. > > Every now and then we run into someone who had to retune their system to > something like: > > shared_buffers=512MB > checkpoint_segments=3 > > In order to avoid spikes from killing them. That may be the direction > you have to head. The longer the time between checkpoints, the bigger > the spike at the end is going to be to some extend; you can't completely > spread that out. I am really afraid of doing it right now. In my experience the spike is the same but we only have it once an hour. > > 5. Does anybody know if I can set dirty_background_ratio to 0.5? As we > > have 12 GB RAM and rather slow disks 0,5% would result in a maximum of > > 61MB dirty pages. > > Nope. Linux has absolutely terrible controls for this critical > performance parameter. The sort of multi-second spikes you're seeing > are extremely common and very difficult to get rid of. ok, thanks. > > PS: Do I need to post this question on pgsql-perfomance? If so, please > > let me know. > > That would have been the better list for it originally. I also wrote > something about a technique that uses pg_stat_bgwriter snapshots to help > model what the server is doing in these cases better you might find > useful on the admin list, it's at > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-admin/2010-06/msg00074.php thank you very much for your help! best regards Janning -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
Janning wrote: 1. With raising checkpoint_timeout, is there any downgrade other than slower after-crash recovery? Checkpoint spikes happen when too much I/O has been saved up for checkpoint time than the server can handle. While this is normally handled by the checkpoint spreading logic, you may find that with your limited disk configuration there's no other way to handle the problem but to make checkpoints much more frequent, rather than slower. At http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/content/postgresql/chkp-bgw-83.htm I write about how you had to tune PostgreSQL 8.0 to 8.2 in order to keep checkpoint spikes from getting too big. You may have to follow those same techniques for your server. Just don't try to increase the background writer settings in your case--the 8.3 one is different enough that you can't tune that the way was suggested for 8.2. 2. Is there a way to calculate the after-crash recovery time with a certain checkpoint_timeout? How long would be approx. for a checkpoint_timeout of 60 minutes? Simulate it. No way to estimate. 3. Is it sane to set checkpoint_timeout to 120min or even to 600min? Checkpoints happen when you reach either checkpoint_segments of WAL written *or* reach checkpoint_timeout, whichever happens first. You'd have to set both to extremely large values to get checkpoints to happen really infrequently. Which I suspect is the exactly opposite of what you want--you can't handle the spike from a long delayed checkpoint, and probably want to tune for shorter and smaller ones instead. Every now and then we run into someone who had to retune their system to something like: shared_buffers=512MB checkpoint_segments=3 In order to avoid spikes from killing them. That may be the direction you have to head. The longer the time between checkpoints, the bigger the spike at the end is going to be to some extend; you can't completely spread that out. 5. Does anybody know if I can set dirty_background_ratio to 0.5? As we have 12 GB RAM and rather slow disks 0,5% would result in a maximum of 61MB dirty pages. Nope. Linux has absolutely terrible controls for this critical performance parameter. The sort of multi-second spikes you're seeing are extremely common and very difficult to get rid of. PS: Do I need to post this question on pgsql-perfomance? If so, please let me know. That would have been the better list for it originally. I also wrote something about a technique that uses pg_stat_bgwriter snapshots to help model what the server is doing in these cases better you might find useful on the admin list, it's at http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-admin/2010-06/msg00074.php -- Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US Baltimore, MD PostgreSQL Training, Services and Support g...@2ndquadrant.com www.2ndQuadrant.us -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Janning wrote: > 1. With raising checkpoint_timeout, is there any downgrade other than slower > after-crash recovery? Depends on how busy your DB is, and how many checkpoint segments you have. All the timeout does is say, "if we have not done a checkpoint this long, do it now." So, if you run out of checkpoint segments, a checkpoint will be run. How often you fill those segments depends on how much writing you do and how many of them you have. > > 2. Is there a way to calculate the after-crash recovery time with a certain > checkpoint_timeout? How long would be approx. for a checkpoint_timeout of 60 > minutes? It depends on the number of segments with data that needs to be pushed to permanent table storage. So it is not so much dependent on the timeout but the number of segments and how much writing you do, as above. > > 3. Is it sane to set checkpoint_timeout to 120min or even to 600min? I don't think so :-) > > 4. We have checkpoint_completion_target set to 0.9. The checkpoint is always > ready much earlier. Is it ought to be like this? I thought the work would be > spread across 90% of 60 minutes? Instead it takes only 10 Minutes for the > checkpoint to be finished. I use the following: checkpoint_segments = 64 checkpoint_timeout = 15min checkpoint_completion_target = 0.8 on a server with 20GB RAM and very big fast disks with Pg 8.3. You should also investigate the bgwriter, which pushes dirty pages to disk. Perhaps being more aggressive with that will reduce your need to checkpoint. Greg Smith has the best info on tuning these parameters that I have found: http://www.westnet.com/~gsmith/gregsmith/content/postgresql/index.htm -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
Hi again, nobody answered my question :-(, so i did some research. I was convinced to set: checkpoint_segments = 16 checkpoint_timeout = 60min and echo 2 > /proc/sys/vm/dirty_background_ratio this helped a lot. Our freeze time was reduced from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. But this is still way too long. I know the best fix would be good disks, but at the moment it is not affordable. Behalf of my research I have lots of questions concerning Checkpoints: 1. With raising checkpoint_timeout, is there any downgrade other than slower after-crash recovery? 2. Is there a way to calculate the after-crash recovery time with a certain checkpoint_timeout? How long would be approx. for a checkpoint_timeout of 60 minutes? 3. Is it sane to set checkpoint_timeout to 120min or even to 600min? 4. We have checkpoint_completion_target set to 0.9. The checkpoint is always ready much earlier. Is it ought to be like this? I thought the work would be spread across 90% of 60 minutes? Instead it takes only 10 Minutes for the checkpoint to be finished. 5. Does anybody know if I can set dirty_background_ratio to 0.5? As we have 12 GB RAM and rather slow disks 0,5% would result in a maximum of 61MB dirty pages. Your help is very appreciated? kind regards Janning PS: Do I need to post this question on pgsql-perfomance? If so, please let me know. On Wednesday 09 June 2010 18:53:23 Janning wrote: > Hi, > > we currently encounter an increasing load on our website. With the > increasing load we see some problems on our database. so we checked what > happens and we saw spikes in our load when checkpoints are about to finish. > > Our configuration: > > max_connections = 125 > ssl = false > shared_buffers = 500MB > work_mem = 15MB > maintenance_work_mem = 250MB > synchronous_commit = off > full_page_writes = off > > checkpoint_segments = 10 > checkpoint_timeout = 10min > checkpoint_completion_target = 0.9 > > random_page_cost = 2 > effective_cache_size = 5000MB > > autovacuum = off > > (we put autovacuum to off because we suspected it). > > all the other parameters are set to default (beside log parameters and so > on). > > Our machine has 12 GB RAM, i7-975 CPU and a SW-Raid-1 for datadir and > another one for the rest of the server (including postgresql logfiles). > Disk are "Barracuda 7200.11 SATA 3Gb/s 1.5-TB" and we are running debian > lenny. > > these are our checkpoint log statements: > > 2010-06-09 17:24:27 CEST [6375]: [1-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time > 2010-06-09 17:28:09 CEST [6375]: [2-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote > 2861 buffers (4.5%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 1 > recycled; write=193.057 s, sync=29.259 s, total=222.353 s > 2010-06-09 17:34:27 CEST [6375]: [3-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time > 2010-06-09 17:39:09 CEST [6375]: [4-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote > 3247 buffers (5.1%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 > recycled; write=255.255 s, sync=26.911 s, total=282.177 s > 2010-06-09 17:44:27 CEST [6375]: [5-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time > 2010-06-09 17:49:41 CEST [6375]: [6-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote > 2746 buffers (4.3%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 > recycled; write=280.743 s, sync=33.392 s, total=314.147 s > 2010-06-09 17:54:27 CEST [6375]: [7-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time > 2010-06-09 17:58:59 CEST [6375]: [8-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote > 3118 buffers (4.9%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 1 > recycled; write=253.293 s, sync=18.585 s, total=271.892 s > 2010-06-09 18:04:27 CEST [6375]: [9-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time > 2010-06-09 18:08:46 CEST [6375]: [10-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote > 2695 buffers (4.2%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 > recycled; write=225.173 s, sync=33.789 s, total=258.972 s > 2010-06-09 18:14:27 CEST [6375]: [11-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time > 2010-06-09 18:18:30 CEST [6375]: [12-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote > 2868 buffers (4.5%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 > recycled; write=215.561 s, sync=27.701 s, total=243.271 s > > What we saw is a rather long sync time. And exactly at this time, our > responses become slow and the server load increases. > > this is from pg_stat_bgwriter: > > checkpoints_timed | checkpoints_req | buffers_checkpoint | buffers_clean | > maxwritten_clean | buffers_backend | buffers_alloc > ---+-++---+ >--+-+--- 3495 | 0 > |9070242 | 10798927 | 14421 | 6412707 | > 208340755 > > > We tried to increase checkpoint_timeout to 20 minutes but it was getting > worse: > > 2010-06-09 18:34:27 CEST [6375]: [13-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time > 2010-06-09 18:42:49 CEST [6375]: [14-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote > 2956 buffers (4.6%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 1 > recycled; write=448.265 s, sync=54.087 s, total=502.377 s > > here we
[GENERAL] checkpoint spikes
Hi, we currently encounter an increasing load on our website. With the increasing load we see some problems on our database. so we checked what happens and we saw spikes in our load when checkpoints are about to finish. Our configuration: max_connections = 125 ssl = false shared_buffers = 500MB work_mem = 15MB maintenance_work_mem = 250MB synchronous_commit = off full_page_writes = off checkpoint_segments = 10 checkpoint_timeout = 10min checkpoint_completion_target = 0.9 random_page_cost = 2 effective_cache_size = 5000MB autovacuum = off (we put autovacuum to off because we suspected it). all the other parameters are set to default (beside log parameters and so on). Our machine has 12 GB RAM, i7-975 CPU and a SW-Raid-1 for datadir and another one for the rest of the server (including postgresql logfiles). Disk are "Barracuda 7200.11 SATA 3Gb/s 1.5-TB" and we are running debian lenny. these are our checkpoint log statements: 2010-06-09 17:24:27 CEST [6375]: [1-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time 2010-06-09 17:28:09 CEST [6375]: [2-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote 2861 buffers (4.5%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 1 recycled; write=193.057 s, sync=29.259 s, total=222.353 s 2010-06-09 17:34:27 CEST [6375]: [3-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time 2010-06-09 17:39:09 CEST [6375]: [4-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote 3247 buffers (5.1%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 recycled; write=255.255 s, sync=26.911 s, total=282.177 s 2010-06-09 17:44:27 CEST [6375]: [5-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time 2010-06-09 17:49:41 CEST [6375]: [6-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote 2746 buffers (4.3%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 recycled; write=280.743 s, sync=33.392 s, total=314.147 s 2010-06-09 17:54:27 CEST [6375]: [7-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time 2010-06-09 17:58:59 CEST [6375]: [8-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote 3118 buffers (4.9%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 1 recycled; write=253.293 s, sync=18.585 s, total=271.892 s 2010-06-09 18:04:27 CEST [6375]: [9-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time 2010-06-09 18:08:46 CEST [6375]: [10-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote 2695 buffers (4.2%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 recycled; write=225.173 s, sync=33.789 s, total=258.972 s 2010-06-09 18:14:27 CEST [6375]: [11-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time 2010-06-09 18:18:30 CEST [6375]: [12-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote 2868 buffers (4.5%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 2 recycled; write=215.561 s, sync=27.701 s, total=243.271 s What we saw is a rather long sync time. And exactly at this time, our responses become slow and the server load increases. this is from pg_stat_bgwriter: checkpoints_timed | checkpoints_req | buffers_checkpoint | buffers_clean | maxwritten_clean | buffers_backend | buffers_alloc ---+-++---+--+-+--- 3495 | 0 |9070242 | 10798927 | 14421 | 6412707 | 208340755 We tried to increase checkpoint_timeout to 20 minutes but it was getting worse: 2010-06-09 18:34:27 CEST [6375]: [13-1] LOG: checkpoint starting: time 2010-06-09 18:42:49 CEST [6375]: [14-1] LOG: checkpoint complete: wrote 2956 buffers (4.6%); 0 transaction log file(s) added, 0 removed, 1 recycled; write=448.265 s, sync=54.087 s, total=502.377 s here we see a 54 sec sync time and a much higher load on sync time compared to the 10 minutes checkpoint_timeout. do you have any hints for us how to tune our configuration to avoid spikes? kind regards Janning -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
