Re: [GENERAL] Charging for PostgreSQL

2016-01-06 Thread John R Pierce

On 1/6/2016 8:25 AM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote:

Music industry is a good example where too low charges has damaged it. People 
in the industry will tell you that not enough young talent are coming through 
the system. I do agree that there is some corruption but there is no escaping 
the fact that the industry's turn over has seen a massive decline.



thats a terrible example.   'the music industry' are leaches on the 
talent.young talent has chosen to stay OUT of their 'industry' 
because the industry sucks them dry.


there's TONS of young talent out there performing, its just not 
mainstream commercial crap.   much of it is self produced, by extremely 
talented musicians who have intentionally chosen to stay as far away 
from the 'music industry' as possible, earning their income by touring 
and direct CD and merchandise sales.






--
john r pierce, recycling bits in santa cruz



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Re: [GENERAL] Charging for PostgreSQL

2016-01-06 Thread Jan de Visser

[offtopic alert]

On 2016-01-06 12:46 PM, James Keener wrote:
How does one "start a new thread"? 
'New Message' in your favourite email client. 
'pgsql-general@postgresql.org' in the 'To' box.



I wasn't aware that changing the subject wouldn't be enough. I tried :/


Check the raw source of the message I replied to. There's 'In-Reply-To' 
and 'References' headers email clients use to thread messages.


GMail attempts to be smart by threading messages by subject. This is not 
only contrary to the spec, but potentially just as inconvenient, if you 
have messages with the same subject. I've had gmail thread messages from 
years apart because the subject was something like 'Hello'.



Jim


jan



On January 6, 2016 12:17:54 PM EST, "Stéphane Schildknecht" 
 wrote:


On 06/01/2016 16:54, James Keener wrote:

As Melvin mentioned, this belongs in a new thread. 



And as such, it would have been really kind to actually start a new one.

(...)


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Re: [GENERAL] Charging for PostgreSQL

2016-01-06 Thread James Keener
How does one "start a new thread"? I wasn't aware that changing the subject 
wouldn't be enough. I tried :/

Jim

On January 6, 2016 12:17:54 PM EST, "Stéphane Schildknecht" 
 wrote:
>On 06/01/2016 16:54, James Keener wrote:
>> As Melvin mentioned, this belongs in a new thread.
>
>And as such, it would have been really kind to actually start a new
>one.
>
>(...)
>-- 
>Stéphane Schildknecht
>Contact régional PostgreSQL pour l'Europe francophone
>Loxodata - Conseil, expertise et formations
>06.17.11.37.42
>
>
>-- 
>Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org)
>To make changes to your subscription:
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Re: [GENERAL] Charging for PostgreSQL

2016-01-06 Thread Stéphane Schildknecht
On 06/01/2016 16:54, James Keener wrote:
> As Melvin mentioned, this belongs in a new thread.

And as such, it would have been really kind to actually start a new one.

(...)
-- 
Stéphane Schildknecht
Contact régional PostgreSQL pour l'Europe francophone
Loxodata - Conseil, expertise et formations
06.17.11.37.42


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Re: [GENERAL] Charging for PostgreSQL

2016-01-06 Thread FarjadFarid(ChkNet)
Hi Jim/Melvin and all,

Music industry is a good example where too low charges has damaged it. People 
in the industry will tell you that not enough young talent are coming through 
the system. I do agree that there is some corruption but there is no escaping 
the fact that the industry's turn over has seen a massive decline.  

Sun Microsystem is even a closer example and why Oracle has taken Google to 
court over java licenses. Basically they need to make money to support product 
developments. 

Even the community version has costs associated with it. 

Incidentally the original posting was hoping to replicate the success of Ubuntu 
and their use of code of conduct. 

Hence my comments about issues that will help the success of PostgreSQL more 
directly. 

I for one would not ignore code of conduct if there was one. Hopefully others 
would have the courtesy to do the same. 

Hope this clarifies all the points. 








-Original Message-
From: James Keener [mailto:j...@jimkeener.com] 
Sent: 06 January 2016 15:54
To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Charging for PostgreSQL

As Melvin mentioned, this belongs in a new thread.

> Just one last example. Consider the music industry. For years Apple amongst 
> others promoted low cost per unit downloads and then streaming. We all know 
> the history. 
> 
> Once a thriving industry music industry has been decimated. Neither the 
> musicians nor song writers receive proper income any more.  
> All the major players recognise its current state is unsustainable. 
So? In an odd twist of things, the developers here are either being paid to 
work on PostgreSQL or are _volunteering_ their time. It would be extremely rude 
to take their _volunteered_ time and profit from it.
Ditto for support, such as this forum and the IRC channel.

We can debate the music industry all day. My view is that it's inefficient, 
corrupt, and poorly managed. A more streamlined system would result in more 
money to the artists themselves. They are not a good comparison to a F/OSS 
project.

> *I am sure neither of us want to see postgresql to falter.*
And I have no idea how you think charging for PostgreSQL won't make it falter. 
People will move to other free databases or move to paid offerings along the 
thought process of "no one was ever fired for buying ibm"

> Of course the right balance needs to be struck but for me at least the idea 
> of free lunch has had its day. 
How does PostgreSQL being free affect you in a _negative_ way? This "free 
lunch" is the reason we have the technology and world that we do.
I'm honestly curious why you have an issue with this. Not charging for code has 
not prevented a plethora of other projects from having a growing community. 
Those issues become moot when you force the community to disappear. We need to 
understand what keeps new devs away and fix it
-- not simply force everyone away.

> There can be a low enough charge that people don't feel too much of a pinch 
> but enough to sustain the progress of postgresql.
No. There can't. Going from free to anything will decrease your user base, 
especially when there are free alternatives and very large, and
(unfortunately) trusted names you can pay for a database. I've dealt with this 
at many companies.

> I genuinely don't like arguments over emails. These are complex issues.
I personally find it easier than arguing in person. But to each his own.
If you don't like arguing then there is nothing that says you must argue.

> Again I for one will continue to support postgresql team whatever their 
> decision may be. 
That decision has already been made. Unless you can overcome the _idealogical_ 
reason that PostgreSQL is F/OSS in the first place, then I'm not sure this is 
an argument worth continuing.

Jim

> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org 
> [mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of James Keener
> Sent: 06 January 2016 15:04
> To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Karsten Hilbert'; 
> pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
> 
>> My only aim is further progress of postgresql.
> Charging for it would do exactly that. Most people would simply switch to 
> MySQL (or Maria) or stop upgrading/upgrade to a fork.
> 
>> As per Sun Microsystem’s case charging zero dollars (for Java and
>> mysql)  means there is zero income.
> Why do you think this is a company? There _are_ companies that offer support 
> and coding. While I'm sure everyone would agree that developers should be 
> able to eat (and more/better than Raman), the point of the "The PostgreSQL 
> Global Development Group" and being "The world's most advanced open source 
> database" is not to become Ellison. The commercial support and consulting 
> offerings are there to make the money. The rest of us plebs just have to help 
> each other out.
> 
> Had PostgreSQL started out/never became open source, we woul