Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tony Caduto]

Tom Lane wrote:

Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
  
As I understand it the debugger functions are included by default in 
8.3,



That's incorrect.

regards, tom lane

  

Ok, thanks for the info.

Back in Sept the debugger was advertised as a feature of 8.3, so if it's 
not included how is it a feature?
Is it going to be included as a contrib module or something else?  I am 
talking about the server side stuff not the EDB GUI client.


Thanks,

Tony

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tom Lane]

Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> As I understand it the debugger functions are included by default in 
> 8.3,

That's incorrect.

regards, tom lane

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:46:07 -0500
brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Tony Caduto wrote:
> > 
> > Back in Sept the debugger was advertised as a feature of 8.3, so if
> > it's not included how is it a feature?

Advocacy of PostgreSQL includes more than just the core code. It also
includes the promotion of all the very cool projects surrounding
PostgreSQL.

So the debugger is a feature of 8.3. It just isn't included in core.


> > Is it going to be included as a contrib module or something else?

It is a pgfoundry project which is part of PostgreSQL. A quick co
of /trunk shows that it is not in contrib.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[brian]

Tony Caduto wrote:


Back in Sept the debugger was advertised as a feature of 8.3, so if it's 
not included how is it a feature?
Is it going to be included as a contrib module or something else?  I am 
talking about the server side stuff not the EDB GUI client.




I don't know what you're referring to when you say it was "advertised as 
a feature" but it's not a part of the PG release. You can get it here:


http://pgfoundry.org/projects/edb-debugger/

brian

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Richard Huxton]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

So the debugger is a feature of 8.3. It just isn't included in core.


Is it going to be included as a contrib module or something else?


It is a pgfoundry project which is part of PostgreSQL. A quick co
of /trunk shows that it is not in contrib.


Which is probably an error IMHO. If anything makes sense as part of 
/contrib it's a procedural-language debugger module.


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  Archonet Ltd

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:49:37 -0600
Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> Here ya go:
> 
> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201803375

> 
> Now you know what I am talking about :-)

I see nothing incorrect in that article.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


> 
> Later,
> 
> Tony Caduto
> 
> ---(end of
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> 


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Richard Huxton]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Which is probably an error IMHO. If anything makes sense as part of 
/contrib it's a procedural-language debugger module.


Take it up with those who didn't submit it for inclusion :)


Fair enough.

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  Archonet Ltd

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tony Caduto]

brian wrote:


I don't know what you're referring to when you say it was "advertised 
as a feature" but it's not a part of the PG release. You can get it here:




Here ya go:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201803375

From the article:

After nine months of work, the new features in 8.3 will be available at 
www.postgreSQL.org . They will include:
A finished PL/pgSQL debugger, a tool for editing PostgreSQL's version of 
the standard SQL data access language in database applications.
Full text search made more accessible by becoming a feature included in 
the system code instead of being an add-on option.
Clustering code from Skype for load balancing and spreading queries to a 
large database across several PostgreSQL systems.



Now you know what I am talking about :-)

Later,

Tony Caduto

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:40:26 +
Richard Huxton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > So the debugger is a feature of 8.3. It just isn't included in core.
> > 
> >>> Is it going to be included as a contrib module or something else?
> > 
> > It is a pgfoundry project which is part of PostgreSQL. A quick co
> > of /trunk shows that it is not in contrib.
> 
> Which is probably an error IMHO. If anything makes sense as part of 
> /contrib it's a procedural-language debugger module.

Take it up with those who didn't submit it for inclusion :)

Joshua D. Drake
 


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Richard Huxton]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:49:37 -0600
Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Here ya go:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201803375



Now you know what I am talking about :-)


I see nothing incorrect in that article.


So you're saying the finished plpgsql debugger will be available from 
www.postgresql.org ?


"After nine months of work, the new features in 8.3 will be available at 
www.postgreSQL.org. They will include:


* A finished PL/pgSQL debugger"

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  Archonet Ltd

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tom Lane]

Richard Huxton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> It is a pgfoundry project which is part of PostgreSQL. A quick co
>> of /trunk shows that it is not in contrib.

> Which is probably an error IMHO. If anything makes sense as part of 
> /contrib it's a procedural-language debugger module.

At some point it might get integrated, but right now it seems to need
its own release schedule.  We put the core hooks in for 8.2 but the
thing didn't actually get published for many months after that.

IIRC there are also some questions about what dependencies the GUI
part of it has got ...

regards, tom lane

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tony Caduto]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:49:37 -0600
Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Here ya go:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201803375


I see nothing incorrect in that article.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


  
Who said anything was incorrect? It's just a bit misleading (the Info 
Week Article).


It's just after reading that MANY readers would think that if they 
install 8.3, the debugger hooks/whatever would be ready out of the box.


Whoever is doing the release notes may want to have something in there 
about the debugger and the fact that it's not included and has to be 
manually compiled and all that.


In the current release notes for 8.3  it makes NO mention of the debugger.


Later,

Tony Caduto



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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tony Caduto]

Richard Huxton wrote:


So you're saying the finished plpgsql debugger will be available from 
www.postgresql.org ?


"After nine months of work, the new features in 8.3 will be available 
at www.postgreSQL.org. They will include:


* A finished PL/pgSQL debugger"




There is no mention of anything debugger related in the 8.3 beta release 
notes either.


Kind of seems like its not really a feature to me, but what do I know :-)

The article is very misleading with regards to the debugger.

Later,


Tony Caduto

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Dave Page]

> --- Original Message ---
> From: Richard Huxton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Joshua D. Drake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: 14/11/07, 19:01:04
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question
> 
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:49:37 -0600
> > Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Here ya go:
> >>
> >> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201803375
> > 
> >> Now you know what I am talking about :-)
> > 
> > I see nothing incorrect in that article.
> 
> So you're saying the finished plpgsql debugger will be available from 
> www.postgresql.org ?

It all is, so that is correct.

/D

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[brian]

Tony Caduto wrote:

brian wrote:

I don't know what you're referring to when you say it was "advertised 
as a feature" but it's not a part of the PG release. You can get it here:




Here ya go:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201803375

 From the article:

After nine months of work, the new features in 8.3 will be available at 
www.postgreSQL.org . They will include:
A finished PL/pgSQL debugger, a tool for editing PostgreSQL's version of 
the standard SQL data access language in database applications.
Full text search made more accessible by becoming a feature included in 
the system code instead of being an add-on option.
Clustering code from Skype for load balancing and spreading queries to a 
large database across several PostgreSQL systems.



Now you know what I am talking about :-)



I should have pointed out that I wasn't questioning whether or not there 
was an article that stated this. I was simply pointing out that the 
debugger was *not* included in the release (did you look at the release 
notes?) and also where you can find it.


That said, take this up with Information Week.

brian

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:44:39 -0500
brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I should have pointed out that I wasn't questioning whether or not
> there was an article that stated this. I was simply pointing out that
> the debugger was *not* included in the release (did you look at the
> release notes?) and also where you can find it.
> 
> That said, take this up with Information Week.

Please don't. Bruce and I both have talked with them about that article
and although it isn't exactly accurate, it is close enough and is a
positive endorsement of our project.

Sincerely,


Joshua D. Drake 

> 
> brian
> 
> ---(end of
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> joining column's datatypes do not match
> 


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tom Lane]

Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Who said anything was incorrect? It's just a bit misleading (the Info 
> Week Article).

Three out of the four features mentioned in your quote are not part of
core Postgres, so the author was obviously taking a very wide view of
what "Postgres" is.  Or was just misinformed.

> Whoever is doing the release notes may want to have something in there 
> about the debugger and the fact that it's not included and has to be 
> manually compiled and all that.

Yup, I can see it now:


 Never believe anything you read in Information Week.


Seriously, we can't be expected to worry about misstatements made by
others.  If we had to add a paragraph to the release notes for every
incorrect thing that's ever been said about Postgres, they'd be
completely unreadable rather than just mostly.

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:01:04 +
Richard Huxton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> > 
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:49:37 -0600
> > Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Here ya go:
> >>
> >> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201803375
> > 
> >> Now you know what I am talking about :-)
> > 
> > I see nothing incorrect in that article.
> 
> So you're saying the finished plpgsql debugger will be available from 
> www.postgresql.org ?


http://www.postgresql.org/ftp/projects/pgFoundry/edb-debugger/


Joshua D. Drake

> 
> "After nine months of work, the new features in 8.3 will be available
> at www.postgreSQL.org. They will include:
> 
>  * A finished PL/pgSQL debugger"
> 


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Bruce Momjian]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:44:39 -0500
> brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I should have pointed out that I wasn't questioning whether or not
> > there was an article that stated this. I was simply pointing out that
> > the debugger was *not* included in the release (did you look at the
> > release notes?) and also where you can find it.
> > 
> > That said, take this up with Information Week.
> 
> Please don't. Bruce and I both have talked with them about that article
> and although it isn't exactly accurate, it is close enough and is a
> positive endorsement of our project.

Oh, yea, that article.  There was some confusion by the author over 3rd
party stuff vs main project stuff.  It was a "stuff-is-coming" article so
we couldn't get it 100% accurate after the fact.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tom Lane]

Andrew Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 02:03:50PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
>> At some point it might get integrated, but right now it seems to need
>> its own release schedule.  We put the core hooks in for 8.2 but the
>> thing didn't actually get published for many months after that.

> What I'd prefer, in any case, is what (Dunstan? I think?) proposed, which is
> something like CPAN for PostgreSQL packages.  Things that _have_ to be in
> the core -- hooks and such like -- would be shipped with the basic code, but
> everything else could be pulled from pgfoundry.

Something like that could work well for modules that are moderately
independent of the core database version.  I'm afraid that won't be true
for the plpgsql debugger, unfortunately --- it needs to know all about
plpgsql's internal data structures, and thus for example will need an
update every time we invent a new plpgsql statement or feature.  I think
ease of maintenance will dictate pulling it into the core "blob", once
it's settled enough for that to be a reasonable thing to do.  Otherwise
the debugger will soon become a maze of twisty little #ifdefs as it
tries to support multiple PG releases.

regards, tom lane

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 10:41:23AM -0600, Tony Caduto wrote:
> 
> So if you are using Oracle do you have to go through the hassle of 
> finding it, then compiling and installing it?

This canard comes up every time we discuss keeping the codebase lean, and I
say the same thing every time: Oracle (and DB2, and MySQL, and SQL Server,
and everyone else) _do so_ have all these add ons.  They just package it in
one thing sometimes, and you think it's "one system".  It is one system. 
It's not one program.

This is what packagers are for.

Nobody seems to think it strange that you have to get libc from a
completely other group of programmers than you get the Linux kernel, for
instance.  This is because working systems are not built by people
downloading the source code and building their systems by hand from itty
bitty parts on the ground (any more than you buy your car from GM, Magna
International, and Dow Corning).  

Small modules are _good_.  They isolate problems.

(None of this is an argument against Tom's point that deep-in-there hooks at
least have to be shipped with the core stuff.  The same is true for
replication, for instance.)

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
Old sigs will return after re-constitution of blue smoke

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:41:23 -0600
Tony Caduto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> >   
> I would have to disagree.
> 

:)

> So if you are using Oracle do you have to go through the hassle of 
> finding it, then compiling and installing it?

That is what the packagers are for. 

> 
> As far as I know it's included in the core.
> 
> Things like the debugger need to just be there with no monkeying
> around.

If you are compiling from source, you are likely monkeying around. It
is the packagers responsibility to package this stuff, not core.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

> 
> 
> Later,
> 
> Tony
> 


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:57:28 -0500
Andrew Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> (None of this is an argument against Tom's point that deep-in-there
> hooks at least have to be shipped with the core stuff.  The same is
> true for replication, for instance.)

Right.

Joshua D. Drake

> 
> A
> 


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Steve Atkins]

On Nov 15, 2007, at 8:57 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:


On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 10:41:23AM -0600, Tony Caduto wrote:


So if you are using Oracle do you have to go through the hassle of
finding it, then compiling and installing it?


This canard comes up every time we discuss keeping the codebase  
lean, and I
say the same thing every time: Oracle (and DB2, and MySQL, and SQL  
Server,
and everyone else) _do so_ have all these add ons.  They just  
package it in
one thing sometimes, and you think it's "one system".  It is one  
system.

It's not one program.

This is what packagers are for.


Yup. Core vs not-core is for the convenience of the developers,
not the users.

But one difference between PG and others is that there are a lot of
different packagers, who bundle a variety of different subsets of the
addons, effectively creating a number of quite different products,
even though they're all called postgresql.

At one point you could expect that stuff in contrib would likely
be available via package (at least as a -contrib package) and
that stuff on gborg wouldn't be.

Now contrib is mostly going away, the windows installer bundles
all sorts of things that aren't obviously available via other
packages, so there are an awful lot of versions of the postgresql
application, some very different from a users point of view.

I tend to think of that as feature as much as bug, but it does
cause some confusion while trying to provide ad-hoc support
to new users.

Cheers,
  Steve


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:34:36 -0500
Andrew Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 09:20:33AM -0800, Steve Atkins wrote:
> > packages, so there are an awful lot of versions of the postgresql
> > application, some very different from a users point of view.
> > 
> > I tend to think of that as feature as much as bug, but it does
> > cause some confusion while trying to provide ad-hoc support
> > to new users.
> 
> Well, we could set up a postgres-bundles project (especially if
> "CPgAN" got off the ground) that defined well-outlined sets of
> packages that work well together.  This would really be nothing more
> than a hints file for packagers; but it'd be something that community
> members could say, "Here are things that naturally fit together when
> we use them," and if enough people found a given description
> apposite, we could "endorse" that.

I would rather us just start a packaging project. We are already doing
this for RPMS... and the debian folks are all over it... We just need
to provide some help and get them into the repos.

Joshua D. Drake

> 
> A
> 


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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 02:03:50PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> At some point it might get integrated, but right now it seems to need
> its own release schedule.  We put the core hooks in for 8.2 but the
> thing didn't actually get published for many months after that.

What I'd prefer, in any case, is what (Dunstan? I think?) proposed, which is
something like CPAN for PostgreSQL packages.  Things that _have_ to be in
the core -- hooks and such like -- would be shipped with the basic code, but
everything else could be pulled from pgfoundry.

This approach has a negative, of course -- CPAN modules can occasionally
cause dependency hell.  But the advantage is that bugs in one component with
a small but active user community don't have to either wait for another
general release, or affect the wider community.  This approach is part of
why we made Slony-I an "add on", and even though that has had some
disadvantages, I think on the whole it was a good thing.

A

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Andrew Sullivan

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Joshua D. Drake]

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On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:00:36 -0500
Tom Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> Something like that could work well for modules that are moderately
> independent of the core database version.  I'm afraid that won't be
> true for the plpgsql debugger, unfortunately --- it needs to know all
> about plpgsql's internal data structures, and thus for example will
> need an update every time we invent a new plpgsql statement or
> feature.'

They don't have to do this. They could simply state that 1.0 is for
8.1, 2.0 is for 8.2, 3.0 is for 8.3.

We don't back patch features, why should they?

Don't get me wrong the debugger is certainly useful but I see no
technical argument (and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong :))
that deems it needs to be in core.

Joshua D. Drake



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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Tony Caduto]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:


Don't get me wrong the debugger is certainly useful but I see no
technical argument (and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong :))
that deems it needs to be in core.

Joshua D. Drake



  

I would have to disagree.

So if you are using Oracle do you have to go through the hassle of 
finding it, then compiling and installing it?


As far as I know it's included in the core.

Things like the debugger need to just be there with no monkeying around.


Later,

Tony

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Re: [GENERAL] PLpgsql debugger question

[Andrew Sullivan]

On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 09:20:33AM -0800, Steve Atkins wrote:
> packages, so there are an awful lot of versions of the postgresql
> application, some very different from a users point of view.
> 
> I tend to think of that as feature as much as bug, but it does
> cause some confusion while trying to provide ad-hoc support
> to new users.

Well, we could set up a postgres-bundles project (especially if "CPgAN" got
off the ground) that defined well-outlined sets of packages that work well
together.  This would really be nothing more than a hints file for
packagers; but it'd be something that community members could say, "Here are
things that naturally fit together when we use them," and if enough people
found a given description apposite, we could "endorse" that.

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan
Old sigs will return after re-constitution of blue smoke

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