Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
El 2018-06-04 12:52, Joshua D. Drake escribió: On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct We are now asking for a final round of community comments. Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only). If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to c...@postgresql.org. Thanks for all the efforts on this. It is nice to see us explicitly moving toward modernizing our community policies and creating an openly inclusive community. There are a couple of notes I have about this: I think we need language that explicitly states that this is about participation within postgresql.org only. It is not postgresql.org's mission or purpose to police actions outside of their domain. The following minor modification would work: "To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community interaction and participation within the Postgresql.org project." There is no language that protects different political or social views. In today's climate it is important especially as we are a worldwide project. Something simple like the following should be enough: "Examples of personal characteristics include, but are not limited to age, race, national origin or ancestry, religion, political affiliation, social class, gender, or sexual orientation." i don't know, because a check "Your agree ours rules", may enough. Categorize, we will can have different interpretation. JD
Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
Hello, Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from country less earnings. For examplo Cuba. El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió: On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: My comments: 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below. 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into disrepute, ..." This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be handled where they occur not here. This is good point. There are those who would think that one has performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee. It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community. If I may suggest: The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world. The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint. 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such conduct. " Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it. "considered offensive by fellow members" Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here: I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to someone on a technical subject. In the sense that I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. Which is correct? I agree with both concerns in the above exchange. This is an economic common project. The goal should be for people to come together and act civilly. Waging culture war using the code of conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides. I'm talking to is my slave! I heard of an American university that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of the history of slavery. The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore. I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a technical issue. The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct. Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object! Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). Knowing your audience is important. I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and mature. At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red MAGA hats. And yet everyone managed to be civil. We manage to do better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be proud of ourselves. Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government Bonds. They used two very common hand gestures that are very Australian. Bond sales dropped. On investigation, they found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene. The gestures? Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive. Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly frowned upon. Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and used to addressing these sorts of issues. Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour! Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational. I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together. Misunderstanding can happen. But let'
Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
El 2018-06-05 10:54, gilberto.casti...@etecsa.cu escribió: Hello, Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from country less earnings. El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió: On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: My comments: 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below. 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into disrepute, ..." This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be handled where they occur not here. This is good point. There are those who would think that one has performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee. It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community. If I may suggest: The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world. The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint. 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such conduct. " Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it. "considered offensive by fellow members" Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here: I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to someone on a technical subject. In the sense that I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. Which is correct? I agree with both concerns in the above exchange. This is an economic common project. The goal should be for people to come together and act civilly. Waging culture war using the code of conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides. I'm talking to is my slave! I heard of an American university that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of the history of slavery. The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore. I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a technical issue. The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct. Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object! Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). Knowing your audience is important. I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and mature. At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red MAGA hats. And yet everyone managed to be civil. We manage to do better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be proud of ourselves. Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government Bonds. They used two very common hand gestures that are very Australian. Bond sales dropped. On investigation, they found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene. The gestures? Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive. Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly frowned upon. Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and used to addressing these sorts of issues. Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour! Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational. I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together.
Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
O.K, Remember my Country Please. El 2018-06-05 11:29, Joshua D. Drake escribió: On 06/05/2018 07:45 AM, Chris Travers wrote: It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community. If I may suggest: The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world. The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint. +1 "considered offensive by fellow members" Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here: I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to someone on a technical subject. In the sense that I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. Which is correct? I agree with both concerns in the above exchange. This is an economic common project. The goal should be for people to come together and act civilly. Waging culture war using the code of conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides. [snip] Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). Knowing your audience is important. I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and mature. At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red MAGA hats. And yet everyone managed to be civil. We manage to do better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be proud of ourselves. To be fair, those were South Africans but yes, nobody gave them any public grief as far as I know. Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational. I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together. Misunderstanding can happen. But let's try to act in a collegial and generally respectful way around eachother. +1 JD
Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
El 2018-06-04 12:52, Joshua D. Drake escribió: On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct We are now asking for a final round of community comments. Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only). If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to c...@postgresql.org. Thanks for all the efforts on this. It is nice to see us explicitly moving toward modernizing our community policies and creating an openly inclusive community. There are a couple of notes I have about this: I think we need language that explicitly states that this is about participation within postgresql.org only. It is not postgresql.org's mission or purpose to police actions outside of their domain. The following minor modification would work: "To that end, we have established this Code of Conduct for community interaction and participation within the Postgresql.org project." There is no language that protects different political or social views. In today's climate it is important especially as we are a worldwide project. Something simple like the following should be enough: "Examples of personal characteristics include, but are not limited to age, race, national origin or ancestry, religion, political affiliation, social class, gender, or sexual orientation." i don't know, because a check "Your agree ours rules", may enough. Categorize, we will can have different interpretation. JD
Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
Hello, Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from country less earnings. For examplo Cuba. El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió: On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: My comments: 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below. 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into disrepute, ..." This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be handled where they occur not here. This is good point. There are those who would think that one has performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee. It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community. If I may suggest: The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world. The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint. 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such conduct. " Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it. "considered offensive by fellow members" Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here: I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to someone on a technical subject. In the sense that I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. Which is correct? I agree with both concerns in the above exchange. This is an economic common project. The goal should be for people to come together and act civilly. Waging culture war using the code of conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides. I'm talking to is my slave! I heard of an American university that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of the history of slavery. The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore. I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a technical issue. The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct. Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object! Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). Knowing your audience is important. I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and mature. At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red MAGA hats. And yet everyone managed to be civil. We manage to do better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be proud of ourselves. Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government Bonds. They used two very common hand gestures that are very Australian. Bond sales dropped. On investigation, they found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene. The gestures? Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive. Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly frowned upon. Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and used to addressing these sorts of issues. Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour! Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational. I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together. Misunderstanding can happen. But let'
Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
El 2018-06-05 10:54, gilberto.casti...@etecsa.cu escribió: Hello, Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from country less earnings. El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió: On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: My comments: 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below. 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into disrepute, ..." This to me is overly broad and pulls in actions that may happen outside the community. Those if they are actually an issue should be handled where they occur not here. This is good point. There are those who would think that one has performed an action that brings the project into disrepute and a similar sized bias that suggests that in fact that isn't the case. This based on the CoC would be judged by the CoC committee. It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community. If I may suggest: The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world. The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint. 3) "... members must be sensitive to conduct that may be considered offensive by fellow members and must refrain from engaging in such conduct. " Again overly broad, especially given the hypersensitivity of people these days. I have found that it is enough to disagree with someone to have it called offensive. This section should be removed as proscribed behavior is called out in detail in the paragraphs above it. "considered offensive by fellow members" Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here: I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to someone on a technical subject. In the sense that I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. Which is correct? I agree with both concerns in the above exchange. This is an economic common project. The goal should be for people to come together and act civilly. Waging culture war using the code of conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides. I'm talking to is my slave! I heard of an American university that doesn't want people to use the term master, like in an MSc, because of the history of slavery. The PostgreSQL project already has this problem, note we don't use the terms Master and Slave in reference to replication anymore. I've used the expressions "sacrifice a willing virgin" and "offering my first born to the gods" as ways to ensure success of resolving a technical issue. The people I say that to, know what I mean -- and they implicitly know that I'm not seriously suggesting such conduct. Yet, if I wrote that publicly, it is conceivable that someone might object! Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). Knowing your audience is important. I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and mature. At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red MAGA hats. And yet everyone managed to be civil. We manage to do better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be proud of ourselves. Consider a past advertising campaign in Australia to sell government Bonds. They used two very common hand gestures that are very Australian. Bond sales dropped. On investigation, they found the bonds were mainly bought by old Greek people, who found the gestures obscene. The gestures? Thumbs up, and the okay gesture formed by touching the thumb with the next finger -- nothing sexually suggestive to most Australians, but traditional Greeks found them offensive. Using Australia as an example, my understanding is that the word c**t is part of nomenclature but in the states the word is taboo and highly frowned upon. Again key point that a CoC committee needs to be international and used to addressing these sorts of issues. Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour! Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational. I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together.
Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan
O.K, Remember my Country Please. El 2018-06-05 11:29, Joshua D. Drake escribió: On 06/05/2018 07:45 AM, Chris Travers wrote: It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community. If I may suggest: The committee should be international as well and include people from around the world. The last thing we want is for it to be dominated by people from one particular cultural viewpoint. +1 "considered offensive by fellow members" Is definitely too broad. The problem comes in here: I might possibly say that "I'm the master in this area" when talking to someone on a technical subject. In the sense that I'm better at that particular skill, but some hypersensitive American could get their knickers in a twist (notice, that in this context, no gender is implied -- also in using that that expression "get their knickers in a twist" could offend some snowflake) claiming that I'm suggesting that whoever "snowflake", I find that term hilarious others find it highly offensive. Which is correct? I agree with both concerns in the above exchange. This is an economic common project. The goal should be for people to come together and act civilly. Waging culture war using the code of conduct itself should be a violation of the code of conduct and this goes on *all* (not just one or two) sides. [snip] Yes and that is a problem. We need to have some simple barrier of acceptance that we are all adults here (or should act like adults). Knowing your audience is important. I would point out also that the PostgreSQL community is nice and mature. At PGConf US I saw what appeared to be two individuals with red MAGA hats. And yet everyone managed to be civil. We manage to do better than the US does on the whole in this regard and we should be proud of ourselves. To be fair, those were South Africans but yes, nobody gave them any public grief as far as I know. Correct. I think one way to look at all of this is, "if you wouldn't say it to your boss or a client don't say it here". That too has problems but generally speaking I think it keeps the restrictions rational. I will post a more specific set of thoughts here but in general I think the presumption ought to be that people are trying to work together. Misunderstanding can happen. But let's try to act in a collegial and generally respectful way around eachother. +1 JD
