Re: Logical decoding without slots: decoding in lockstep with recovery
On Sat, 26 Dec 2020 at 06:51, Andres Freund wrote: > Hi, > > On 2020-12-23 14:56:07 +0800, Craig Ringer wrote: > > I want to share an idea I've looked at a few times where I've run into > > situations where logical slots were inadvertently dropped, or where it > > became necessary to decode changes in the past on a slot. > > > > As most of you will know you can't just create a logical slot in the > past. > > Even if it was permitted, it'd be unsafe due to catalog_xmin retention > > requirements and missing WAL. > > > > But if we can arrange a physical replica to replay the WAL of interest > and > > decode each commit as soon as it's replayed by the startup process, we > know > > the needed catalog rows must all exist, so it's safe to decode the > change. > > > > So it should be feasible to run logical decoding in standby, even > without a > > replication slot, so long as we: > > > > * pause startup process after each xl_xact_commit > > * wake the walsender running logical decoding > > * decode and process until ReorderBufferCommit for the just-committed > xact > > returns > > * wake the startup process to decode the up to the next commit > > I don't think it's safe to just do this for each xl_xact_commit - we can > remove needed rows at quite a few places, not just around transaction > commit. Good point. I vaguely recall spotting a possible decoding-on-standby issue with eager removal of rows that are still ahead of the global xmin if the primary "knows" can't be needed based on info about currently running backends. But when looking over code related to HOT, visibility, and vacuum now I can't for the life of me remember exactly what it was or find it. Hopefully I just misunderstood at the time or was getting confused between decoding on standby and xact streaming. > Rows needed to correctly decode rows earlier in the transaction > might not be available by the time the commit record was logged. > When can that happen? I think you'd basically have to run logical decoding in lockstep with > WAL replay, i.e. replay one record, then call logical decoding for that > record, replay the next record, ... > That sounds likely to be unusably slow. The only way I can see it having any hope of moving at a reasonable rate would be to run a decoding session inside the startup process itself so we don't have to switch back/forth for each record. But I imagine that'd probably cause a whole other set of problems. > Can anyone see any obvious problem with this? > > The patch for logical decoding on the standby > https://postgr.es/m/20181212204154.nsxf3gzqv3gesl32%40alap3.anarazel.de > should provide some of the infrastructure to do this properly. Should > really commit it. /me adds an entry to the top of the todo list. > That would certainly be helpful for quite a number of things.
Re: Logical decoding without slots: decoding in lockstep with recovery
Hi, On 2020-12-23 14:56:07 +0800, Craig Ringer wrote: > I want to share an idea I've looked at a few times where I've run into > situations where logical slots were inadvertently dropped, or where it > became necessary to decode changes in the past on a slot. > > As most of you will know you can't just create a logical slot in the past. > Even if it was permitted, it'd be unsafe due to catalog_xmin retention > requirements and missing WAL. > > But if we can arrange a physical replica to replay the WAL of interest and > decode each commit as soon as it's replayed by the startup process, we know > the needed catalog rows must all exist, so it's safe to decode the change. > > So it should be feasible to run logical decoding in standby, even without a > replication slot, so long as we: > > * pause startup process after each xl_xact_commit > * wake the walsender running logical decoding > * decode and process until ReorderBufferCommit for the just-committed xact > returns > * wake the startup process to decode the up to the next commit I don't think it's safe to just do this for each xl_xact_commit - we can remove needed rows at quite a few places, not just around transaction commit. Rows needed to correctly decode rows earlier in the transaction might not be available by the time the commit record was logged. I think you'd basically have to run logical decoding in lockstep with WAL replay, i.e. replay one record, then call logical decoding for that record, replay the next record, ... > Can anyone see any obvious problem with this? The patch for logical decoding on the standby https://postgr.es/m/20181212204154.nsxf3gzqv3gesl32%40alap3.anarazel.de should provide some of the infrastructure to do this properly. Should really commit it. /me adds an entry to the top of the todo list. Greetings, Andres Freund
Re: Logical decoding without slots: decoding in lockstep with recovery
On Wed, 23 Dec 2020, 18:57 Amit Kapila, wrote: > On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 12:26 PM Craig Ringer > wrote: > > > > Hi all > > > > I want to share an idea I've looked at a few times where I've run into > situations where logical slots were inadvertently dropped, or where it > became necessary to decode changes in the past on a slot. > > > > As most of you will know you can't just create a logical slot in the > past. Even if it was permitted, it'd be unsafe due to catalog_xmin > retention requirements and missing WAL. > > > > But if we can arrange a physical replica to replay the WAL of interest > and decode each commit as soon as it's replayed by the startup process, we > know the needed catalog rows must all exist, so it's safe to decode the > change. > > > > So it should be feasible to run logical decoding in standby, even > without a replication slot, so long as we: > > > > * pause startup process after each xl_xact_commit > > * wake the walsender running logical decoding > > * decode and process until ReorderBufferCommit for the just-committed > xact returns > > * wake the startup process to decode the up to the next commit > > > > How will you deal with subscriber restart? I think you need some way > to remember confirmed_flush_lsn and restart_lsn and then need to teach > WAL machinery to restart from some previous point. > The simplest option, albeit slow, would be to require the subscriber to confirm flush before allowing more WAL redo. That's what I'd initially assumed. This is a bit of a corner case situation after all, it's never going to be fast with the switching back and forth. More efficient would be to decode and output to a local spool file and fsync it. Then separately send that to the subscriber, like has been discussed in other work on more efficient logical decoding. So the output plugin output would go to a local spool. That can be implemented with pg_recvlogical if needed. > -- > With Regards, > Amit Kapila. >
Re: Logical decoding without slots: decoding in lockstep with recovery
On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 12:26 PM Craig Ringer wrote: > > Hi all > > I want to share an idea I've looked at a few times where I've run into > situations where logical slots were inadvertently dropped, or where it became > necessary to decode changes in the past on a slot. > > As most of you will know you can't just create a logical slot in the past. > Even if it was permitted, it'd be unsafe due to catalog_xmin retention > requirements and missing WAL. > > But if we can arrange a physical replica to replay the WAL of interest and > decode each commit as soon as it's replayed by the startup process, we know > the needed catalog rows must all exist, so it's safe to decode the change. > > So it should be feasible to run logical decoding in standby, even without a > replication slot, so long as we: > > * pause startup process after each xl_xact_commit > * wake the walsender running logical decoding > * decode and process until ReorderBufferCommit for the just-committed xact > returns > * wake the startup process to decode the up to the next commit > How will you deal with subscriber restart? I think you need some way to remember confirmed_flush_lsn and restart_lsn and then need to teach WAL machinery to restart from some previous point. -- With Regards, Amit Kapila.
