Re: v12 and TimeLine switches and backups/restores
Greetings, * Michael Banck (michael.ba...@credativ.de) wrote: > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 12:12:14AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > > Specifically, if you take a backup off a primary and, while that backup > > is going on, some replica is promoted and drops a .history file into the > > WAL repo, that backup is no longer able to be restored with the new > > recovery_target_timeline default. > > Quick question to grasp the magnitude of this: > > If a user takes a backup with pg_basebackup in streaming mode, would > that still be a problem? Or is this "only" a problem for base backups > which go through a wal archive common between primary and standby? That's a bit complicated to answer. 1) If the pg_basebackup is taken off of the primary, or some non-promoted replica, and the user fetches WAL during the backup and does *not* configure a restore_command, then the backup should restore just fine using the WAL that was fetched/streamed from the primary, along the original timeline. Of course, that system won't be then able to follow the new primary that was promoted during the backup. 2) If the pg_basebackup is taken off of the primary, or some other replica, and the user *does* configure a restore_command, and a promotion happens during the backup and that former-replica then pushes a .history file into the repo that the restore_command is configured to use, then I'm pretty sure this issue would be hit during the restore (though I haven't specifically tested that, but we do go out and look for timelines pretty early on). 3) If the pg_basebackup is taken off of the replica that's promoted, the pg_basebackup will actually fail and error and there won't be a valid backup in the first place. Thanks, Stephen signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: v12 and TimeLine switches and backups/restores
Hi, On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 12:12:14AM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > Specifically, if you take a backup off a primary and, while that backup > is going on, some replica is promoted and drops a .history file into the > WAL repo, that backup is no longer able to be restored with the new > recovery_target_timeline default. Quick question to grasp the magnitude of this: If a user takes a backup with pg_basebackup in streaming mode, would that still be a problem? Or is this "only" a problem for base backups which go through a wal archive common between primary and standby? Michael -- Michael Banck Projektleiter / Senior Berater Tel.: +49 2166 9901-171 Fax: +49 2166 9901-100 Email: michael.ba...@credativ.de credativ GmbH, HRB Mönchengladbach 12080 USt-ID-Nummer: DE204566209 Trompeterallee 108, 41189 Mönchengladbach Geschäftsführung: Dr. Michael Meskes, Jörg Folz, Sascha Heuer Unser Umgang mit personenbezogenen Daten unterliegt folgenden Bestimmungen: https://www.credativ.de/datenschutz
Re: v12 and TimeLine switches and backups/restores
Greetings, * Robert Haas (robertmh...@gmail.com) wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 4:02 PM Stephen Frost wrote: > > There's two solutions, really- first would be, as you suggest, configure > > PG to stay on the timeline that the backup was taken on, but I suspect > > that's often *not* what the user actually wants- what they really want > > is to restore an earlier backup (one taken before the TL switch) and > > then have PG follow the timeline switch when it comes across it. > > It seems, though, that if it IS what the user actually wants, they're > now going to get the wrong behavior by default, and that seems pretty > undesirable. Well, even if we revert the change to the default of target_timeline, it seems like we should still add the check that I'm proposing, to address the case where someone explicitly asks for the latest timeline. > > There's another option here, though I rejected it, which is that we > > could possibly force the restore to ignore a TL switch before reaching > > consistency, but if we do that then, sure, we'll finish the restore but > > we won't be on the TL that the user asked us to be, and we wouldn't be > > able to follow a primary that's on that TL, so ultimately the restore > > wouldn't actually be what the user wanted. There's really not an option > > to do what the user wanted except to find an earlier backup to restore, > > so that's why I'm proposing that if we hit this situation we just PANIC. > > I'm not sure I really believe this. If someone tries to configure a > backup without inserting a non-default setting of > recovery_target_timeline, is it more likely that they want backup > restoration to fail, or that they want to recover from the timeline > that will let backup restoration succeed? You're arguing for the > former, but my instinct was the latter. Perhaps we need to hear some > other opinions. Ultimately depends on if the user is knowledgable regarding what the default is, or not. I'm going off the expectation that they know what the default value is and the other argument is that they have no idea what the default is and just expect the restore to work- which isn't a wrong position to take, but the entire situation is only going to happen if there's been a promotion involving a replica in the first place, and that newly-promoted-replica pushed a .history file into the same WAL repo that this server is following the WAL from, and if you're running with replicas and you promote them, you probably do want to be using a target timeline of 'latest' or your replicas won't follow those timeline switches. Changing the default now in a back-patch would actively break such setups that are working now in a very non-obvious way too, only to be discovered when a replica is promoted and another replica stops keeping up because it keeps on its current timeline. In the above situation, the restore will fail either way from what I've seen- if we hit end-of-WAL before reaching consistency then we'll PANIC, or if we come across a SHUTDOWN record, we'll also PANIC, so it's not like the user is going to get a successful restore that's just corrupted, thankfully. Catching this earlier with a clearer error message, as I'm proposing here, seems like it would generally be helpful though (perhaps with an added HINT: use an earlier backup to restore from...). Thanks, Stephen signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: v12 and TimeLine switches and backups/restores
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 4:02 PM Stephen Frost wrote: > There's two solutions, really- first would be, as you suggest, configure > PG to stay on the timeline that the backup was taken on, but I suspect > that's often *not* what the user actually wants- what they really want > is to restore an earlier backup (one taken before the TL switch) and > then have PG follow the timeline switch when it comes across it. It seems, though, that if it IS what the user actually wants, they're now going to get the wrong behavior by default, and that seems pretty undesirable. > There's another option here, though I rejected it, which is that we > could possibly force the restore to ignore a TL switch before reaching > consistency, but if we do that then, sure, we'll finish the restore but > we won't be on the TL that the user asked us to be, and we wouldn't be > able to follow a primary that's on that TL, so ultimately the restore > wouldn't actually be what the user wanted. There's really not an option > to do what the user wanted except to find an earlier backup to restore, > so that's why I'm proposing that if we hit this situation we just PANIC. I'm not sure I really believe this. If someone tries to configure a backup without inserting a non-default setting of recovery_target_timeline, is it more likely that they want backup restoration to fail, or that they want to recover from the timeline that will let backup restoration succeed? You're arguing for the former, but my instinct was the latter. Perhaps we need to hear some other opinions. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
Re: v12 and TimeLine switches and backups/restores
Greetings, * Robert Haas (robertmh...@gmail.com) wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:12 AM Stephen Frost wrote: > > Among the changes made to PG's recovery in v12 was to set > > recovery_target_timeline to be 'latest' by default. That's handy when > > you're flipping back and forth between replicas and want to have > > everyone follow that game, but it's made doing some basic things like > > restoring from a backup problematic. > > > > Specifically, if you take a backup off a primary and, while that backup > > is going on, some replica is promoted and drops a .history file into the > > WAL repo, that backup is no longer able to be restored with the new > > recovery_target_timeline default. What happens is that the restore > > process will happily follow the timeline change- even though it happened > > before we reached consistency, and then it'll never find the needed > > end-of-backup WAL point that would allow us to reach consistency. > > Ouch. Should we revert that change rather than doing this? Seems like > this might create a lot of problems for people, and they might be > problems that happen rarely enough that it looks like it's working > until it doesn't. What's the fix, if you hit the error? Add > recovery_target_timeline= to > postgresql.auto.conf? I don't really think reverting the change to make following the latest timeline would end up being terribly helpful- an awful lot of systems are going to be running with that anyway for HA and such, so it seems like something we just need to deal with. As such, it seems like this is also something that would need to be back-patched, though I've not looked at how much effort that'll be (yet), since it probably makes sense to get agreement on if this approach is the best first. There's two solutions, really- first would be, as you suggest, configure PG to stay on the timeline that the backup was taken on, but I suspect that's often *not* what the user actually wants- what they really want is to restore an earlier backup (one taken before the TL switch) and then have PG follow the timeline switch when it comes across it. We're looking at having pgbackrest automatically pick the correct backup to be able to make that happen when someone requests timeline-latest (pretty handy having a repo full of backups that allow us to pick the right one based on what the user's request is). There's another option here, though I rejected it, which is that we could possibly force the restore to ignore a TL switch before reaching consistency, but if we do that then, sure, we'll finish the restore but we won't be on the TL that the user asked us to be, and we wouldn't be able to follow a primary that's on that TL, so ultimately the restore wouldn't actually be what the user wanted. There's really not an option to do what the user wanted except to find an earlier backup to restore, so that's why I'm proposing that if we hit this situation we just PANIC. > Typo: similairly. Fixed locally. Thanks! Stephen signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: v12 and TimeLine switches and backups/restores
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:12 AM Stephen Frost wrote: > Among the changes made to PG's recovery in v12 was to set > recovery_target_timeline to be 'latest' by default. That's handy when > you're flipping back and forth between replicas and want to have > everyone follow that game, but it's made doing some basic things like > restoring from a backup problematic. > > Specifically, if you take a backup off a primary and, while that backup > is going on, some replica is promoted and drops a .history file into the > WAL repo, that backup is no longer able to be restored with the new > recovery_target_timeline default. What happens is that the restore > process will happily follow the timeline change- even though it happened > before we reached consistency, and then it'll never find the needed > end-of-backup WAL point that would allow us to reach consistency. Ouch. Should we revert that change rather than doing this? Seems like this might create a lot of problems for people, and they might be problems that happen rarely enough that it looks like it's working until it doesn't. What's the fix, if you hit the error? Add recovery_target_timeline= to postgresql.auto.conf? Typo: similairly. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
