Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
From: Jeff Janes jeff.ja...@gmail.com I thought that this was the point I was making, not the point I was missing. You have the same hard drives you had before, but now due to a software improvement you are cramming 5 times more stuff through them. Yeah, you will get bigger latency spikes. Why wouldn't you? You are now beating the snot out of your hard drives, whereas before you were not. If you need 10,000 TPS, then you need to upgrade to 9.4. If you need it with low maximum latency as well, then you probably need to get better IO hardware as well (maybe not--maybe more tuning could help). With 9.3 you didn't need better IO hardware, because you weren't capable of maxing out what you already had. With 9.4 you can max it out, and this is a good thing. If you need 10,000 TPS but only 2000 TPS are completing under 9.3, then what is happening to the other 8000 TPS? Whatever is happening to them, it must be worse than a latency spike. On the other hand, if you don't need 10,000 TPS, than measuring max latency at 10,000 TPS is the wrong thing to measure. Thank you, I've probably got the point --- you mean the hard disk for WAL is the bottleneck. But I still wonder a bit why the latency spike became so bigger even with # of clients fewer than # of CPU cores. I suppose the requests get processed more smoothly when the number of simultaneous requests is small. Anyway, I want to believe the latency spike would become significantly smaller on an SSD. Regards MauMau -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
From: Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com On 2014-02-18 01:35:52 +0900, MauMau wrote: For example, please see the max latencies of test set 2 (PG 9.3) and test set 4 (xlog scaling with padding). They are 207.359 and 1219.422 respectively. The throughput is of course greatly improved, but I think the response time should not be sacrificed as much as possible. There are some users who are sensitive to max latency, such as stock exchange and online games. You need to compare both at the same throughput to have any meaningful comparison. I'm sorry for my lack of understanding, but could you tell me why you think so? When the user upgrades to 9.4 and runs the same workload, he would experience vastly increased max latency --- or in other words, greater variance in response times. With my simple understanding, that sounds like a problem for response-sensitive users. Regards MauMau -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On 2014-02-18 20:49:06 +0900, MauMau wrote: From: Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com On 2014-02-18 01:35:52 +0900, MauMau wrote: For example, please see the max latencies of test set 2 (PG 9.3) and test set 4 (xlog scaling with padding). They are 207.359 and 1219.422 respectively. The throughput is of course greatly improved, but I think the response time should not be sacrificed as much as possible. There are some users who are sensitive to max latency, such as stock exchange and online games. You need to compare both at the same throughput to have any meaningful comparison. I'm sorry for my lack of understanding, but could you tell me why you think so? When the user upgrades to 9.4 and runs the same workload, he would experience vastly increased max latency --- or in other words, greater variance in response times. No, the existing data indicates no such thing. When they upgrade they will have the *same* throughput as before. The datapoints you indicate that there's an increase in latency, but it's there while processing several time as much data! The highest throughput of set 2 is 3223, while the highest for set 4 is 14145. To get interesting latency comparison you'd need to use pgbench --rate and use a rate *both* versions can sustain. Greetings, Andres Freund -- Andres Freund http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, MauMau maumau...@gmail.com wrote: From: Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com On 2014-02-18 01:35:52 +0900, MauMau wrote: For example, please see the max latencies of test set 2 (PG 9.3) and test set 4 (xlog scaling with padding). They are 207.359 and 1219.422 respectively. The throughput is of course greatly improved, but I think the response time should not be sacrificed as much as possible. There are some users who are sensitive to max latency, such as stock exchange and online games. You need to compare both at the same throughput to have any meaningful comparison. I'm sorry for my lack of understanding, but could you tell me why you think so? When the user upgrades to 9.4 and runs the same workload, he would experience vastly increased max latency The tests shown have not tested that. The test is not running the same workload on 9.4, but rather a vastly higher workload. If we were to throttle the workload in 9.4 (using pgbench's new -R, for example) to the same level it was in 9.3, we probably would not see the max latency increase. But that was not tested, so we don't know for sure. --- or in other words, greater variance in response times. With my simple understanding, that sounds like a problem for response-sensitive users. If you need the throughput provided by 9.4, then using 9.3 gets lower variance simply be refusing to do 80% of the assigned work. If you don't need the throughput provided by 9.4, then you probably have some natural throttling in place. If you want a real-world like test, you might try to crank up the -c and -j to the limit in 9.3 in a vain effort to match 9.4's performance, and see what that does to max latency. (After all, that is what a naive web app is likely to do--continue to make more and more connections as requests come in faster than they can finish.) Cheers, Jeff
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On 02/18/2014 06:27 PM, Jeff Janes wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, MauMau maumau...@gmail.com wrote: --- or in other words, greater variance in response times. With my simple understanding, that sounds like a problem for response-sensitive users. If you need the throughput provided by 9.4, then using 9.3 gets lower variance simply be refusing to do 80% of the assigned work. If you don't need the throughput provided by 9.4, then you probably have some natural throttling in place. If you want a real-world like test, you might try to crank up the -c and -j to the limit in 9.3 in a vain effort to match 9.4's performance, and see what that does to max latency. (After all, that is what a naive web app is likely to do--continue to make more and more connections as requests come in faster than they can finish.) You're missing MauMau's point. In essence, he's comparing two systems with the same number of clients, issuing queries as fast as they can, and one can do 2000 TPS while the other one can do 1 TPS. You would expect the lower-throughput system to have a *higher* average latency. Each query takes longer, that's why the throughput is lower. If you look at the avg_latency columns in the graphs (http://hlinnaka.iki.fi/xloginsert-scaling/padding/), that's exactly what you see. But what MauMau is pointing out is that the *max* latency is much higher in the system that can do 1 TPS. So some queries are taking much longer, even though in average the latency is lower. In an ideal, totally fair system, each query would take the same amount of time to execute, and after it's saturated, increasing the number of clients just makes that constant latency higher. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's because of the extra checkpoints. If you look at the individual test graphs, there are clear spikes in latency, but the latency is otherwise small. With a higher TPS, you reach checkpoint_segments quicker; I should've eliminated that effect in the tests I ran... - Heikki -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On 2014-02-18 19:12:32 +0200, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: You're missing MauMau's point. In essence, he's comparing two systems with the same number of clients, issuing queries as fast as they can, and one can do 2000 TPS while the other one can do 1 TPS. You would expect the lower-throughput system to have a *higher* average latency. Each query takes longer, that's why the throughput is lower. If you look at the avg_latency columns in the graphs (http://hlinnaka.iki.fi/xloginsert-scaling/padding/), that's exactly what you see. But what MauMau is pointing out is that the *max* latency is much higher in the system that can do 1 TPS. So some queries are taking much longer, even though in average the latency is lower. In an ideal, totally fair system, each query would take the same amount of time to execute, and after it's saturated, increasing the number of clients just makes that constant latency higher. Consider me being enthusiastically unenthusiastic about that fact. The change in throughput still makes this pretty uninteresting. There's so many things that are influenced by a factor 5 increase in throughput, that a change in max latency is really not saying much. There's also the point that with 5 times the throughput it's getting more likely to sleep while holding critical locks and such. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's because of the extra checkpoints. If you look at the individual test graphs, there are clear spikes in latency, but the latency is otherwise small. With a higher TPS, you reach checkpoint_segments quicker; I should've eliminated that effect in the tests I ran... I don't think that'd be a good idea. The number of full page writes so greatly influences the WAL charactersistics, that changing checkpoint segments would make the tests much harder to compare. Greetings, Andres Freund -- Andres Freund http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On 02/18/2014 10:51 PM, Andres Freund wrote: On 2014-02-18 19:12:32 +0200, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's because of the extra checkpoints. If you look at the individual test graphs, there are clear spikes in latency, but the latency is otherwise small. With a higher TPS, you reach checkpoint_segments quicker; I should've eliminated that effect in the tests I ran... I don't think that'd be a good idea. The number of full page writes so greatly influences the WAL charactersistics, that changing checkpoint segments would make the tests much harder to compare. I was just thinking of bumping up checkpoint_segments so high that there are no checkpoints during any of the tests. - Heikki -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On 2014-02-18 23:01:08 +0200, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: On 02/18/2014 10:51 PM, Andres Freund wrote: On 2014-02-18 19:12:32 +0200, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's because of the extra checkpoints. If you look at the individual test graphs, there are clear spikes in latency, but the latency is otherwise small. With a higher TPS, you reach checkpoint_segments quicker; I should've eliminated that effect in the tests I ran... I don't think that'd be a good idea. The number of full page writes so greatly influences the WAL charactersistics, that changing checkpoint segments would make the tests much harder to compare. I was just thinking of bumping up checkpoint_segments so high that there are no checkpoints during any of the tests. Hm. I actually think that full page writes are an interesting part of this because they are so significantly differently sized than normal records. Greetings, Andres Freund -- Andres Freund http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Heikki Linnakangas hlinnakan...@vmware.com wrote: On 02/18/2014 06:27 PM, Jeff Janes wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:49 AM, MauMau maumau...@gmail.com wrote: --- or in other words, greater variance in response times. With my simple understanding, that sounds like a problem for response-sensitive users. If you need the throughput provided by 9.4, then using 9.3 gets lower variance simply be refusing to do 80% of the assigned work. If you don't need the throughput provided by 9.4, then you probably have some natural throttling in place. If you want a real-world like test, you might try to crank up the -c and -j to the limit in 9.3 in a vain effort to match 9.4's performance, and see what that does to max latency. (After all, that is what a naive web app is likely to do--continue to make more and more connections as requests come in faster than they can finish.) You're missing MauMau's point. In essence, he's comparing two systems with the same number of clients, issuing queries as fast as they can, and one can do 2000 TPS while the other one can do 1 TPS. You would expect the lower-throughput system to have a *higher* average latency. Each query takes longer, that's why the throughput is lower. If you look at the avg_latency columns in the graphs (http://hlinnaka.iki.fi/ xloginsert-scaling/padding/), that's exactly what you see. But what MauMau is pointing out is that the *max* latency is much higher in the system that can do 1 TPS. So some queries are taking much longer, even though in average the latency is lower. In an ideal, totally fair system, each query would take the same amount of time to execute, and after it's saturated, increasing the number of clients just makes that constant latency higher. I thought that this was the point I was making, not the point I was missing. You have the same hard drives you had before, but now due to a software improvement you are cramming 5 times more stuff through them. Yeah, you will get bigger latency spikes. Why wouldn't you? You are now beating the snot out of your hard drives, whereas before you were not. If you need 10,000 TPS, then you need to upgrade to 9.4. If you need it with low maximum latency as well, then you probably need to get better IO hardware as well (maybe not--maybe more tuning could help). With 9.3 you didn't need better IO hardware, because you weren't capable of maxing out what you already had. With 9.4 you can max it out, and this is a good thing. If you need 10,000 TPS but only 2000 TPS are completing under 9.3, then what is happening to the other 8000 TPS? Whatever is happening to them, it must be worse than a latency spike. On the other hand, if you don't need 10,000 TPS, than measuring max latency at 10,000 TPS is the wrong thing to measure. Cheers, Jeff
[HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
Hello Heikki san, I'm excited about your great work, xlog scaling. I'm looking forward to the release of 9.4. Please let me ask you about your performance data on the page: http://hlinnaka.iki.fi/xloginsert-scaling/padding/ I'm worried about the big increase in max latency. Do you know the cause? More frequent checkpoints caused by increased WAL volume thanks to enhanced performance? Although I'm not sure this is related to what I'm asking, the following code fragment in WALInsertSlotAcquireOne() catched my eyes. Shouldn't the if condition be slotno == -1 instead of !=? I thought this part wants to make inserters to use another slot on the next insertion, when they fail to acquire the slot immediately. Inserters pass slotno == -1. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the code. /* * If we couldn't get the slot immediately, try another slot next time. * On a system with more insertion slots than concurrent inserters, this * causes all the inserters to eventually migrate to a slot that no-one * else is using. On a system with more inserters than slots, it still * causes the inserters to be distributed quite evenly across the slots. */ if (slotno != -1 retry) slotToTry = (slotToTry + 1) % num_xloginsert_slots; Regards MauMau -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
Hi, On 2014-02-18 00:43:54 +0900, MauMau wrote: Please let me ask you about your performance data on the page: http://hlinnaka.iki.fi/xloginsert-scaling/padding/ I'm worried about the big increase in max latency. Do you know the cause? More frequent checkpoints caused by increased WAL volume thanks to enhanced performance? I don't see much evidence of increased latency there? You can't really compare the latency when the throughput is significantly different. Although I'm not sure this is related to what I'm asking, the following code fragment in WALInsertSlotAcquireOne() catched my eyes. Shouldn't the if condition be slotno == -1 instead of !=? I thought this part wants to make inserters to use another slot on the next insertion, when they fail to acquire the slot immediately. Inserters pass slotno == -1. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the code. I think you're right. Greetings, Andres Freund -- Andres Freund http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
From: Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com On 2014-02-18 00:43:54 +0900, MauMau wrote: I'm worried about the big increase in max latency. Do you know the cause? More frequent checkpoints caused by increased WAL volume thanks to enhanced performance? I don't see much evidence of increased latency there? You can't really compare the latency when the throughput is significantly different. For example, please see the max latencies of test set 2 (PG 9.3) and test set 4 (xlog scaling with padding). They are 207.359 and 1219.422 respectively. The throughput is of course greatly improved, but I think the response time should not be sacrificed as much as possible. There are some users who are sensitive to max latency, such as stock exchange and online games. Although I'm not sure this is related to what I'm asking, the following code fragment in WALInsertSlotAcquireOne() catched my eyes. Shouldn't the if condition be slotno == -1 instead of !=? I thought this part wants to make inserters to use another slot on the next insertion, when they fail to acquire the slot immediately. Inserters pass slotno == -1. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the code. I think you're right. Thanks for your confirmation. I'd be glad if the fix could bring any positive impact on max latency. Regards MauMau -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Do you know the reason for increased max latency due to xlog scaling?
On 2014-02-18 01:35:52 +0900, MauMau wrote: From: Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com On 2014-02-18 00:43:54 +0900, MauMau wrote: I'm worried about the big increase in max latency. Do you know the cause? More frequent checkpoints caused by increased WAL volume thanks to enhanced performance? I don't see much evidence of increased latency there? You can't really compare the latency when the throughput is significantly different. For example, please see the max latencies of test set 2 (PG 9.3) and test set 4 (xlog scaling with padding). They are 207.359 and 1219.422 respectively. The throughput is of course greatly improved, but I think the response time should not be sacrificed as much as possible. There are some users who are sensitive to max latency, such as stock exchange and online games. You need to compare both at the same throughput to have any meaningful comparison. Greetings, Andres Freund -- Andres Freund http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
