Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
Well said
I was just trying to be funny. Since we are all programmers here, I'll try and
re-express my thought in a (somewhat) portable language:
char HackerThought[] = "Maybe there really is something to this windows business.
Perhaps its time to consider a port".
int iAnnoyanceLevel = 0;
PerformDailyRoutine();
PerformDailyRoutine ()
{
char* EmailMessage;
Think(HackerThought);
while (EmailMessage = GetEmailMessage(HACKER_LIST))
{
if (!strcmp(EmailMessage, "Windows is an unstable, crappy OS"))
iAnnoyanceLevel++;
if (!strcmp(EmailMessage, "Windows is better than that pile of trash,
linux")) iAnnoyanceLevel += 2;
if (!strcmp(EmailMessage, "Can anybody here tell me how to install the
IPC-Daemon as a service on my win98 machine?")) iAnnoyanceLevel += 100;
}
}
Really, I'm new here, and I have not business telling anybody anything, anyways :)
Merlin
> -Original Message-
> From: Jean-Michel POURE [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:26 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
>
> Le Mercredi 12 Février 2003 15:49, Merlin Moncure a écrit :
> > I think there should be a special mailing list set up called
> > pg-sql-win32-advocacy where people can continually harass the postgres
> > dev team and debate the merits of the win32 operating system.
>
> I realize my views about PostgreSQL are not shared by anyone, otherwize in
> a
> few hours time, I would have received several emails saying "I have the
> same
> feeling, etc...". It seems like everyone is looking for something
> different,
> which ultimately turns out to become ... PostgreSQL.
>
> ---(end of broadcast)---
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Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
Le Mercredi 12 Février 2003 15:49, Merlin Moncure a écrit : > I think there should be a special mailing list set up called > pg-sql-win32-advocacy where people can continually harass the postgres > dev team and debate the merits of the win32 operating system. I realize my views about PostgreSQL are not shared by anyone, otherwize in a few hours time, I would have received several emails saying "I have the same feeling, etc...". It seems like everyone is looking for something different, which ultimately turns out to become ... PostgreSQL. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
I think there should be a special mailing list set up called pg-sql-win32-advocacy where people can continually harass the postgres dev team and debate the merits of the win32 operating system. In particular, make sure to insult them for being elitists (while at the same time asking them to work on software which you have not paid for). We can also rout all the questions about how to set up cygin and the ipc-daemon over there too. Merlin ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to [EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
>>>Vatamanescu Victor said: > Well, I havent seen much that unstable API. If you saw something unstable pl ease provide me source code that proves Windows API is unstable. Don't tel l me about some "expert"'s oppinion: if you have a problem with Windows sh ow it to me. We are not users here. Really? We ARE users of Windows here. Nobody has ever bothered to tell US how this thing works, why it works and what can we, users do when it doesn't work. I am talking about the Windows API here, with it's numerous variants and 'Service Packs'. I have learned my lesson on Windows: use only default configurations, anything else will bite you badly some day. (this is not to say that you can't get the same effect on other platforms, just that on most 'commercial' UNIX platforms some things are very detailed documented - sometimes too much in detail) > I agree that Windows 95/98 was a sh... , but I have news for you: Windows is becomming stronger every day. In 199 8-1999 we could talk about the dying Microsoft - they were null on the ser ver platform and the growth of Linux seemed unlimited. Can you tell me tha t the situation is the same? Have you carrefully tested Windows 2003? You are wrong about Microsoft here. They were null on the server platform, say at 1985, when their wonderful product "Microsoft BASIC" was my favorite on the Apple ][. Then IBM gave them the IBM PC to write an 'OS' for it. I don't claim to be an expert on Windows, although I have actually 'tested' (both from the user's perspective and usability as 'platform') every Windows release since 1.03. > About reinstalling: at home I have a Pentium III 1 ghz workstation. OS: Wind ows XP. I have installed on it Visual Studio .NET, Visual Studio 6, Micros oft SQL Server, IBM DB2, Cygwin, IIS, MSMQ etc etc(you got the picture). I installed it about 9 months ago (when I bought the hdd) and I dont have a ny trouble with it, I hadn't to reinstall it after a month... But rebooted it how many times? I have never ever reinstalled a UNIX system. Some run for years (yes, that is some N x 365 days) without being reboot or powered down. They usually stop when that same flaky PC hardware breaks, and I have to build new system then anyway. > By the way, DB2 has no problem working on Windows. I havent heard IBM callin g Windows a "B category platform", on the contrary... I was trying to avoid this part of the discussion... mostly because I don't believe PostgreSQL is yet able to compete with the 'big' database systems. Here I mean BIG database systems. One of the reasons in my opinion is that those guys that run their data on big iron just can't explain why they will spend millions of dollars a year on OS licenses and still want to install an open-source database there. It seems you got my opinion wrong: I don't see anything wrong with running PostgreSQL on Windows. In fact, I have been considering such port some time ago (or alternatively a 'DOS' port :), because this allows greater flexibility in certain cases. However, moving main development effort on Windows, just to satisfy the Windows lovers' ego would be catastrophic and simply will not happen to PostgreSQL. One of the reasons this will not happen is because PostgreSQL has already grown, has become quality software and many people already know how it runs on the SAME Intel hardware on which Windows runs. The difference with DB2 that runs on IBM other platforms is significant for the same reason. When it fails at your data set on the Windows platform, IBM can always tell you "but,... this is because of the cheap and flaky PC hardware - here is what this wonderful software is designed to run on.." ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
Well, I havent seen much that unstable API. If you saw something unstable please provide me source code that proves Windows API is unstable. Don't tell me about some "expert"'s oppinion: if you have a problem with Windows show it to me. We are not users here. I agree that Windows 95/98 was a sh..., but I have news for you: Windows is becomming stronger every day. In 1998-1999 we could talk about the dying Microsoft - they were null on the server platform and the growth of Linux seemed unlimited. Can you tell me that the situation is the same? Have you carrefully tested Windows 2003? About reinstalling: at home I have a Pentium III 1 ghz workstation. OS: Windows XP. I have installed on it Visual Studio .NET, Visual Studio 6, Microsoft SQL Server, IBM DB2, Cygwin, IIS, MSMQ etc etc(you got the picture). I installed it about 9 months ago (when I bought the hdd) and I dont have any trouble with it, I hadn't to reinstall it after a month... By the way, DB2 has no problem working on Windows. I havent heard IBM calling Windows a "B category platform", on the contrary...Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
>>>Vatamanescu Victor said: > I don't really much care what's the OS our product is running on. I care muc h about our product's high availability, speed, scalability etc. In the la st month I saw on this list a lot of opinions regarding the differences be tween various operating systems. I havent saw opinions regarding the funct ionalities exposed by our direct competitors: other dmbs. Do we want to tr ansform PostgreSQL in the next generation's OS and I am not aware? PostgreSQL is what it is, which certainly is not an OS. If PostgreSQL was 'Operating System' we wouldn't care much on what 'Operating System' it runs, right? But most of the things related to performance AND functionality of PostgreSQL depend very much on what OS you use to build and run it on. (otherwise it could well contain portions of the OS much like Oracle does :) While I agree, that (any) Windows platform may be useful for a lot of things, it's true that one should be wary of Windows, for things like software development (due to it's unstable API), platform stability (I have yet to know someone who didn't have to reinstall Windows every month or so), performance (you can hardly explain to customers, why their new personal Windows Workstation requires > 1 GHz processor, > 256 MB RAM etc while showing them how a moderate PostgreSQL database server that could serve their entire company can run on much older/slower/cheaper hardware). There is nothing wrong in having nice Windows based GUI for accessing databases, but turning a graphical workstation into database server is something that has never worked in the computer history (the opposite has happened from time to time). Windows has lost the game when Microsoft decided to abandon support for non-Intel CPUs in Windows NT (VMS actually). > I can guarantee you good software can be written on Windows too. I can guara ntee you that moving PostgreSQL on Windows is the best move PostgreSQL. I can guarantee you a MMC Snap-In for PostgreSQL and a Visual Studio .NET ad d-in for PostgreSQL can help PostgreSQL becomming a leader. While enough was said in this list regarding the Windows port - nothing could stop anyone to port an open-source database to whatever platform, including Windows. The better the platform knowledge of the porting team, the better the result. But 'moving' PostgreSQL to Windows won't happen. > But discussions like "Windows is a B category platform" and "Windows will di e tommorow" and "Linux is the best" won't lead us on a top position. My personal favorite is BSD/OS and for what it matters, Windows cannot solve the kind of tasks, that BSD/OS solves for me. period. Daniel PS: I probably sound too anti-Microsoft biased, which is not true. I just don't care about Microsoft - I use Windows from time to time when someone sends me $@^#$&@*&#&*$-Microsoft-Office formatted document that will not open anywhere else. Windows also makes great launcher for my father's Heroes III game. ;-) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
Hi all! Things are very unclear to me. Are we in a personal war with Microsoft and I'm not aware? I don't really much care what's the OS our product is running on. I care much about our product's high availability, speed, scalability etc. In the last month I saw on this list a lot of opinions regarding the differences between various operating systems. I havent saw opinions regarding the functionalities exposed by our direct competitors: other dmbs. Do we want to transform PostgreSQL in the next generation's OS and I am not aware? I can guarantee you good software can be written on Windows too. I can guarantee you that moving PostgreSQL on Windows is the best move PostgreSQL. I can guarantee you a MMC Snap-In for PostgreSQL and a Visual Studio .NET add-in for PostgreSQL can help PostgreSQL becomming a leader. But discussions like "Windows is a B category platform" and "Windows will die tommorow" and "Linux is the best" won't lead us on a top position.Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
[HACKERS] PostgreSQL Windows port strategy
Dear Friends, As a minor contributor to pgAdmin, I would like to express ideas as regards the Windows port. As a personal point of view, it may or may not reflect the community ideas, who knows. Don't flame me too much, I am only a casual user of PostrgreSQL... ** Microsoft success is not due to a particular software (Word, Excel, Access, Ms SQL Server, Internet Explorer, Visual Basic, etc...) but to the combination of all these softwares on a proprietary platform (Windows). Whatever free software breaks into this combination of proprietary softwares will participate, one step after another, in the destruction of Microsoft monopoly. Therefore, PostgreSQL and OpenOffice for Windows are probably the most valuable efforts to break down Microsoft monopoly. Windows alone, without Word, Excel, Power Point, Visual Basic, MS SQL Server, will not convince a single customer. And this will be the end of Microsoft. On the converse, Linux rise is due, not only to the availability of a large number of softwares, but also to the notion a collaborative works inside a community. Even without cross-porting software from Unixes to Windows, I believe Windows will die of its own death because collaborative development in communities is superior. It is only a question of time. The conditions for PostgreSQL to defeat Microsoft quickly is that we stay united and wage war on the two fronts: Windows on the one hand and Linux/Unixes on the other hand. Most of you are Americans and as such, you probably studied the American civil war. One of the reasons why the civil war claimed 500.000 dies is that the armies fought on different fronts, at different times, without synchronization. As regards PostgreSQL, our efforts should concentrate on both platforms at the same time. In other words, this means: porting PostgreSQL to Windows, bringing pgAdmin2/3 to Linux and other Free Unixies. And probably delivering bundles under Linux, Free Unixes and Windows, offering the best Free softwares: PostgreSQL server, pgAdmin client and PhpPgAdmin web interface. MySQL success is largely due to its availability under Windows in bundles, which is a pure Microsoft strategy. PostgreSQL are not and will never be playing Microsoft strategy because we are a world community. To sum up: 1) Microsoft sucess is due to the availibility of bundles under a proprietary platform. Replacing Microsoft leading softwares with Free alternatives participates in the destruction of Microsoft. 2) Linux and other free Unixes also offer a large number of softwares. Our competive advantage is to work in communities. Even without cross-porting, Free software is going to replace closed software, this is only a question of time. 3) To accelerate the replacement of Windows closed source solutions, PostgreSQL community should synchronize the releases of PostgreSQL under Windows, Linux and Unixes. Not porting PostgreSQL to Windows is playing Microsoft strategy. 4) Also, we should focus on offering users a bundle including: server (PostgreSQL), client (pgAdmin), web interface (phpPgAdmin) and probably Php. This does not need to be a single installer, but at least it should exist as links on the web page. Just my 2 cents. Best regards, Jean-Michel POURE ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
