Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Josh Berkus wrote: Here's a way to trap yourself: (1) Set up an HS/SR master (2) pg_start_backup on the master (3) clone the master to 1 or more slaves (4) Fast shutdown the master (without pg_stop_backup) (5) Restart the master (6) Bring up the slaves Result: the slaves will come up fine in recovery mode. However, they will never switch over to HS mode or start SR. You will not be able to pg_stop_backup() on the master. At this point, you have no option but to shut down the slaves and re-clone. The only reason why this is somewhat problematic for users is that you will not get any messages from the master or the slaves to indicate why they won't switch modes. So I can imagine someone wasting a lot of time troubleshooting the wrong problems. Suggested resolution: I don't think there's and logical fix for this case; it should just be added to the docs as a failure/troubleshooting condition. Hmm, we could throw an error in the standby, when we see a shutdown checkpoint while we're waiting for an end-backup record. If the database was shut down before pg_stop_backup(), we know that the backup was cancelled and the end-backup record we're waiting for will never arrive. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Hmm, we could throw an error in the standby, when we see a shutdown checkpoint while we're waiting for an end-backup record. If the database was shut down before pg_stop_backup(), we know that the backup was cancelled and the end-backup record we're waiting for will never arrive. Sounds good. This would work fine even if an immediate shutdown is done instead since the primary ends up generating a shutdown checkpoint record when restarting. Regards, -- Fujii Masao NIPPON TELEGRAPH AND TELEPHONE CORPORATION NTT Open Source Software Center -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Fujii Masao wrote: On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Hmm, we could throw an error in the standby, when we see a shutdown checkpoint while we're waiting for an end-backup record. If the database was shut down before pg_stop_backup(), we know that the backup was cancelled and the end-backup record we're waiting for will never arrive. Sounds good. This would work fine even if an immediate shutdown is done instead since the primary ends up generating a shutdown checkpoint record when restarting. Yep. I've committed a patch to do that. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:25 AM, Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Yep. I've committed a patch to do that. Is there no way for the slave to recover from this situation? ...Robert -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:25 AM, Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Yep. I've committed a patch to do that. Is there no way for the slave to recover from this situation? Probably Yes. You would need to take a fresh base backup and restart the slave from it. On second thought, seeing a shutdown checkpoint during waiting end-backup means mostly that the database has already reached the consistent state. We might be able to relax the error check. Regards, -- Fujii Masao NIPPON TELEGRAPH AND TELEPHONE CORPORATION NTT Open Source Software Center -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 12:25 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Fujii Masao wrote: On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Hmm, we could throw an error in the standby, when we see a shutdown checkpoint while we're waiting for an end-backup record. If the database was shut down before pg_stop_backup(), we know that the backup was cancelled and the end-backup record we're waiting for will never arrive. Sounds good. This would work fine even if an immediate shutdown is done instead since the primary ends up generating a shutdown checkpoint record when restarting. Yep. I've committed a patch to do that. We should be able to do this earlier in the run. If pg_stop_backup() is run it creates the .backup file in the archive. In the absence of that file, we should be able to work out that pg_stop_backup() was not run. Almost, because we support starting recovery without need to run start/stop backup. If we introduced a special option for that in recovery.conf it would be much simpler to fail if the file were unavailable. -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com writes: Hmm, we could throw an error in the standby, when we see a shutdown checkpoint while we're waiting for an end-backup record. If the database was shut down before pg_stop_backup(), we know that the backup was cancelled and the end-backup record we're waiting for will never arrive. Isn't the above statement complete nonsense? There's nothing to stop the DBA from issuing pg_stop_backup() after he restarts the master. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Tom Lane wrote: Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com writes: Hmm, we could throw an error in the standby, when we see a shutdown checkpoint while we're waiting for an end-backup record. If the database was shut down before pg_stop_backup(), we know that the backup was cancelled and the end-backup record we're waiting for will never arrive. Isn't the above statement complete nonsense? There's nothing to stop the DBA from issuing pg_stop_backup() after he restarts the master. pg_stop_backup() can't be called if there's no backup in progress. Restart cancels it. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Robert Haas wrote: On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:25 AM, Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Yep. I've committed a patch to do that. Is there no way for the slave to recover from this situation? No, it will never open up for hot standby, and it will error at the end of recovery anyway. This just makes it happen earlier and with a smarter error message. In theory, if the data directory was fully copied by the time of the shutdown/crash and the only thing that was missing was pg_stop_backup(), all the data is there, so you could get a consistent database. But we can't know if it's consistent or not, so we don't allow it. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Simon Riggs wrote: If pg_stop_backup() is run it creates the .backup file in the archive. In the absence of that file, we should be able to work out that pg_stop_backup() was not run. It's just as likely that the file is there even though the backup didn't finish, though. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com writes: Tom Lane wrote: Isn't the above statement complete nonsense? There's nothing to stop the DBA from issuing pg_stop_backup() after he restarts the master. pg_stop_backup() can't be called if there's no backup in progress. Restart cancels it. Doh, right (not enough caffeine yet). Given that, I concur this change is a good idea. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 18:13 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: If pg_stop_backup() is run it creates the .backup file in the archive. In the absence of that file, we should be able to work out that pg_stop_backup() was not run. It's just as likely that the file is there even though the backup didn't finish, though. It's possible, but not likely. It would need to break at a very specific place for that to be the case. Whereas the test I explained would work for about 99% of the time between start and stop backup, except for the caveat I explained also. I'm not sure that pointing out a minor hole stops it being a worthwhile test? Surely if you care to fix the problem then a better test can only be a good thing? -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Simon Riggs wrote: On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 18:13 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: If pg_stop_backup() is run it creates the .backup file in the archive. In the absence of that file, we should be able to work out that pg_stop_backup() was not run. It's just as likely that the file is there even though the backup didn't finish, though. It's possible, but not likely. It would need to break at a very specific place for that to be the case. Whereas the test I explained would work for about 99% of the time between start and stop backup, except for the caveat I explained also. I don't understand how you arrived at that figure. Roughly speaking, there's two possibilities: backup_label is backed up before the bulk of the data in base-directory or tablespaces, in which case it will almost certainly be included in the backup, or it will be backed up after the bulk of the data, in which case it will almost certainly not be included if the backup is stopped prematurely. I don't know which is more common, but both seem plausible. I'm not sure that pointing out a minor hole stops it being a worthwhile test? Surely if you care to fix the problem then a better test can only be a good thing? Yeah, it might be worthwhile if it's not a lot of code. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 20:14 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 18:13 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: If pg_stop_backup() is run it creates the .backup file in the archive. In the absence of that file, we should be able to work out that pg_stop_backup() was not run. It's just as likely that the file is there even though the backup didn't finish, though. It's possible, but not likely. It would need to break at a very specific place for that to be the case. Whereas the test I explained would work for about 99% of the time between start and stop backup, except for the caveat I explained also. I don't understand how you arrived at that figure. You're talking about the backup_label file, I'm talking about the .backup file in the archive. -- Simon Riggs www.2ndQuadrant.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Simon Riggs wrote: On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 20:14 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 18:13 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: If pg_stop_backup() is run it creates the .backup file in the archive. In the absence of that file, we should be able to work out that pg_stop_backup() was not run. It's just as likely that the file is there even though the backup didn't finish, though. It's possible, but not likely. It would need to break at a very specific place for that to be the case. Whereas the test I explained would work for about 99% of the time between start and stop backup, except for the caveat I explained also. I don't understand how you arrived at that figure. You're talking about the backup_label file, I'm talking about the .backup file in the archive. Oh, the backup history file. We stopped relying on that with the introduction of the end-of-backup record, to make life easier for streaming replication, and because it's simpler anyway. I don't think we should go back to it. -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:12 AM, Heikki Linnakangas heikki.linnakan...@enterprisedb.com wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 20:14 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: On Tue, 2010-04-27 at 18:13 +0300, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: Simon Riggs wrote: If pg_stop_backup() is run it creates the .backup file in the archive. In the absence of that file, we should be able to work out that pg_stop_backup() was not run. It's just as likely that the file is there even though the backup didn't finish, though. It's possible, but not likely. It would need to break at a very specific place for that to be the case. Whereas the test I explained would work for about 99% of the time between start and stop backup, except for the caveat I explained also. I don't understand how you arrived at that figure. You're talking about the backup_label file, I'm talking about the .backup file in the archive. Oh, the backup history file. We stopped relying on that with the introduction of the end-of-backup record, to make life easier for streaming replication, and because it's simpler anyway. I don't think we should go back to it. Right. When restore_command is not given, the backup history file would be unavailable in the standby. We cannot regard the absence of the file as non-run of pg_stop_backup(). Regards, -- Fujii Masao NIPPON TELEGRAPH AND TELEPHONE CORPORATION NTT Open Source Software Center -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] Wierd quirk of HS/SR, probably not fixable
Hackers, Here's a way to trap yourself: (1) Set up an HS/SR master (2) pg_start_backup on the master (3) clone the master to 1 or more slaves (4) Fast shutdown the master (without pg_stop_backup) (5) Restart the master (6) Bring up the slaves Result: the slaves will come up fine in recovery mode. However, they will never switch over to HS mode or start SR. You will not be able to pg_stop_backup() on the master. At this point, you have no option but to shut down the slaves and re-clone. The only reason why this is somewhat problematic for users is that you will not get any messages from the master or the slaves to indicate why they won't switch modes. So I can imagine someone wasting a lot of time troubleshooting the wrong problems. Suggested resolution: I don't think there's and logical fix for this case; it should just be added to the docs as a failure/troubleshooting condition. -- -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL Experts Inc. http://www.pgexperts.com -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
