Re: [HACKERS] mvcc DML on the same row
On Wed, 2010-12-15 at 20:50 +0100, matteo durighetto wrote: if we continue the transaction and we do for example another update on this row (X) , we again redo the same operation: X0 (deleted old row) X1 (row inserted, NOW deleted) = not needed for rollback X2 (insert new row ) This situation has a simple user-space solution: only make one update to a row, rather than two. But why we need all these versions of the same row on table, if for rollback we need only the original row X (X0) ? X1 cannot be removed because X0 points to it, via its t_ctid field. In order to remove X1 we would need to change X0 to point to X2, which we don't do because we're not allowed to update in place. Even if we could, I'm not sure this case is frequent enough to be worth the effort. -- Simon Riggs http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/books/ PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] mvcc DML on the same row
On Thursday 16 December 2010 15:11:01 Simon Riggs wrote: In order to remove X1 we would need to change X0 to point to X2, which we don't do because we're not allowed to update in place. Even if we could, I'm not sure this case is frequent enough to be worth the effort. Especially as X3 would need to fit into X2's space for it to be beneficial... Andres -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
[HACKERS] mvcc DML on the same row
Hi, I have an idea about mvcc and different DML of the same row in the same transaction. Normally when a backend do an unpdate on a row ( call it X ) , we done an insert and logical delete on this row (0,1,2..N are the version of the row) : X0 (delete old row) X1 (insert new row) if we continue the transaction and we do for example another update on this row (X) , we again redo the same operation: X0 (deleted old row) X1 (row inserted, NOW deleted) = not needed for rollback X2 (insert new row ) But why we need all these versions of the same row on table, if for rollback we need only the original row X (X0) ? So I think we need it in memory, not on physical space of table (ok there is the cache, but ..) or something similar, or this method is for transaction with isolation level at read uncommited? Kind Regards Matteo Durighetto --- desmodem...@gmail.com m.durighe...@miriade.it -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] mvcc DML on the same row
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 2:50 PM, matteo durighetto desmodem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have an idea about mvcc and different DML of the same row in the same transaction. Normally when a backend do an unpdate on a row ( call it X ) , we done an insert and logical delete on this row (0,1,2..N are the version of the row) : X0 (delete old row) X1 (insert new row) if we continue the transaction and we do for example another update on this row (X) , we again redo the same operation: X0 (deleted old row) X1 (row inserted, NOW deleted) = not needed for rollback X2 (insert new row ) But why we need all these versions of the same row on table, if for rollback we need only the original row X (X0) ? The fact that we can't get rid of X1 until after the transaction commits is an implementation limitation. But you obviously need both X0 and X2, because the transaction might either commit or abort. So I think we need it in memory, not on physical space of table (ok there is the cache, but ..) or something similar, or this method is for transaction with isolation level at read uncommited? I can't figure out exactly what this part is talking about. It's completely impractical to add rows to a table without writing them into shared buffers, which means they will eventually get flushed to disk if not vacuumed, dropped, etc. first. We don't support read uncommitted anyway (well, we do, but it's really still snapshot isolation). -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
Re: [HACKERS] mvcc DML on the same row
2010/12/15 matteo durighetto desmodem...@gmail.com: But why we need all these versions of the same row on table, if for rollback we need only the original row X (X0) ? And the previous value of row X during the execution of a statement (because statements don't see their own changes, think INSERT INTO a SELECT * FROM a). And any values that we might need to ROLLBACK TO SAVEPOINT to. So I think we need it in memory, not on physical space of table (ok there is the cache, but ..) or something similar It must be possible to push out those changes from memory to disk anyway, because there is no limit on how many rows a transaction can update in PostgreSQL (vs. Oracle's snapshot too old problems). But then, keeping the locally updated rows in some kind of special per-transaction cache or in the global page cache isn't that different. Also, updating the same row many times in one transaction is probably not regarded a very typical use case. Note that other DBMSs may implement MVCC more along the lines you specified; AFAIR, InnoDB uses such an approach. This may mean that they don't need VACUUM. I think that the consensus is that there is a trade-off between doing VACUUM-like things synchronously, or having the possibility to do it asynchronously at times when load is low. In PostgreSQL, the latter was chosen. Btw, this topic has been discussed at length in the past, please check the archive. or this method is for transaction with isolation level at read uncommited? PostgreSQL implements READ UNCOMMITTED as READ COMMITTED (providing a higher level of isolation than requested is allowed by the standard), so that is definitely not the reason. Nicolas -- Sent via pgsql-hackers mailing list (pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-hackers
