Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 10:42:13AM -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:57:53 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: markus Uh, yah. But I was refering to the lots of opinions on what markus replacement system to use. This has not much to do with the markus want or need (for lack of a better alternative) to stay with markus CVS, IMO. Oh, it's an academic discussion? Sorry, didn't catch that. It's only academic because Monotone is not ready. As soon as it is ready we will be pushing much harder. This invites the obvious question -- in which ways in monotone not ready? Not that I'm trying to imply that monotone *is* ready, of course. -- hendrik ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:57:53 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: markus Uh, yah. But I was refering to the lots of opinions on what markus replacement system to use. This has not much to do with the markus want or need (for lack of a better alternative) to stay with markus CVS, IMO. Oh, it's an academic discussion? Sorry, didn't catch that. Cheers, Richard - Please consider sponsoring my work on free software. See http://www.free.lp.se/sponsoring.html for details. -- Richard Levitte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://richard.levitte.org/ When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -- C.S. Lewis ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:42:13 -0300, Alvaro Herrera [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: alvherre Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: alvherre In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:57:53 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: alvherre alvherre markus Uh, yah. But I was refering to the lots of alvherre markus opinions on what replacement system to use. This alvherre markus has not much to do with the want or need (for lack alvherre markus of a better alternative) to stay with CVS, IMO. alvherre alvherre Oh, it's an academic discussion? Sorry, didn't catch that. alvherre alvherre It's only academic because Monotone is not ready. As soon alvherre as it is ready we will be pushing much harder. You know, I wasn't trying to push any SCM in particular, even though I did mention monotone in one post. Cheers, Richard - Please consider sponsoring my work on free software. See http://www.free.lp.se/sponsoring.html for details. -- Richard Levitte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://richard.levitte.org/ When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -- C.S. Lewis ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:28:07AM -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 10:42:13AM -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:57:53 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: markus Uh, yah. But I was refering to the lots of opinions on what markus replacement system to use. This has not much to do with the markus want or need (for lack of a better alternative) to stay with markus CVS, IMO. Oh, it's an academic discussion? Sorry, didn't catch that. It's only academic because Monotone is not ready. As soon as it is ready we will be pushing much harder. This invites the obvious question -- in which ways in monotone not ready? Not that I'm trying to imply that monotone *is* ready, of course. Time to get the initial pull is too long, mostly. Also, having the policy branch stuff will be good, if nothing else because it'll mean having 1.0 out, in turn meaning UI stability, etc. And getting Markus' work on the CVS import will be good too (I haven't tried converting Postgres' entire CVS repo in a while, and that certainly is a must). I don't think we're going to get a one-shot migration, so Cristof's work on CVS takeover would be really nice to have so that some of us can create an alternative repo and cater for those that will continue to use CVS for a while. Yes, interoperability with other revision management systems is a problem for all of the revision management systems. It might be de-facto-solved it one system manages to talk effectively to the important other ones -- it won't be solved permanantly until there are adequate standard, system-independent protocols ... I don't see that coming soon. And there;s the problem of welcoming the prodigal son. A file gets away from the revision management system, and. much later, returns, much changed from the experience. How should we slot it back into the system? -- hendrik ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 14:49 -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: For example, currently if I have a patch and somebody reviews it and opines that I have to change foo to bar; then I resubmit the patch. How do they find out whether I actually changed foo to bar? Currently there are two alternatives: 1. trust that I did it 2. review the whole patch again Or use interdiff, and then review the incremental changes. BTW, I think an important benefit of switching to a distributed SCM is that it could make life significantly simpler for people maintaining long-lived branches of the Postgres source. That includes both individual developers working on complex features, but also companies that maintain a branch/fork of the Postgres source for one reason or another. At the moment, this requires considerable manual effort: people often end up manually importing periodic snapshots of the upstream Postgres source into their SCM system at various times, and then merging the changes with their private tree by hand. Personally, I'd definitely be in favour of evaluating the alternative SCMs, and switching *at some point*, although it may be that none of the alternatives are mature enough for us to switch yet. In the past, I've converted the Postgres CVS tree to both darcs and monotone. Darcs was completely unusable: even though I didn't import the initial CVS revision history, after a few months of merging in upstream fixes via Tailor, the merging process began to take days of CPU time (before I killed it off). So unless the Darcs algorithms change fundamentally from the 1.0.4-era approach, I don't think it would be scalable enough for us. Monotone worked pretty well -- I'd include it in the set of plausible SCM candidates, along with Mercurial. I agree with Andrew that there's not much to be gained by switching to SVN. -Neil ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:57:53 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: markus Uh, yah. But I was refering to the lots of opinions on what markus replacement system to use. This has not much to do with the markus want or need (for lack of a better alternative) to stay with markus CVS, IMO. Oh, it's an academic discussion? Sorry, didn't catch that. It's only academic because Monotone is not ready. As soon as it is ready we will be pushing much harder. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 10:42:13AM -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:57:53 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: markus Uh, yah. But I was refering to the lots of opinions on what markus replacement system to use. This has not much to do with the markus want or need (for lack of a better alternative) to stay with markus CVS, IMO. Oh, it's an academic discussion? Sorry, didn't catch that. It's only academic because Monotone is not ready. As soon as it is ready we will be pushing much harder. This invites the obvious question -- in which ways in monotone not ready? Not that I'm trying to imply that monotone *is* ready, of course. Time to get the initial pull is too long, mostly. Also, having the policy branch stuff will be good, if nothing else because it'll mean having 1.0 out, in turn meaning UI stability, etc. And getting Markus' work on the CVS import will be good too (I haven't tried converting Postgres' entire CVS repo in a while, and that certainly is a must). I don't think we're going to get a one-shot migration, so Cristof's work on CVS takeover would be really nice to have so that some of us can create an alternative repo and cater for those that will continue to use CVS for a while. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
Hello Richard, you should probably have read the thread on the PostgreSQL -hackers mailing list I've linked to... at least you didn't make Tom's point ;-) Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: 1. Do you want to stay with CVS or do you want to move to something else? Most PostgreSQL developers currently want to stay with CVS. Only some desperate souls including myself are fiddling with other VCSes. 3. What would you want a replacement to be able to do? That's being debated, with many voices saying: CVS (plus our own hackery) provides all we need. (And be warned again: as soon as you point out an advantage of your favourite VCS, you're making Tom's point. ;-) ) So far, I'm getting the sense that there are a lot of opinions on what replacement system to use, a bit carelessly before having answered the above questions thoroughly. How did you get that impression? I'm currently *using* monotone for Postgres-R development, doing cvs_import and propagating to my branch. And I know others did the same already, too. Regards Markus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
Markus Schiltknecht wrote: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: 1. Do you want to stay with CVS or do you want to move to something else? Most PostgreSQL developers currently want to stay with CVS. Only some desperate souls including myself are fiddling with other VCSes. I really don't think this is a correct characterisation. What is true, I think, is that many remain to be convinced that the benefits of any proposed change outweigh the likely pain, and I suspect many are also uncertain about what's happening in the SCM space and prefer to wait until the dust settles some. It's also fair to say that this is a subject about which we usually get much more noise from partisans of other SCM systems than from the relatively small number of people who actually have to maintain the postgresql code. (As Tom has pointed out, our biggest pain point is the occasional wish to move things across directories.) cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
Andrew Dunstan wrote: Markus Schiltknecht wrote: Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: 1. Do you want to stay with CVS or do you want to move to something else? Most PostgreSQL developers currently want to stay with CVS. Only some desperate souls including myself are fiddling with other VCSes. I really don't think this is a correct characterisation. What is true, I think, is that many remain to be convinced that the benefits of any proposed change outweigh the likely pain, and I suspect many are also uncertain about what's happening in the SCM space and prefer to wait until the dust settles some. I believe that is much more accurate. The reality is, switching to something else will be painful. I would prefer not to be on CVS as well but it would take a lot of work and cvs does what we need it to. Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
Andrew Dunstan wrote: It's also fair to say that this is a subject about which we usually get much more noise from partisans of other SCM systems than from the relatively small number of people who actually have to maintain the postgresql code. (As Tom has pointed out, our biggest pain point is the occasional wish to move things across directories.) There are more features we are missing -- we just don't know about them :-) For example, currently if I have a patch and somebody reviews it and opines that I have to change foo to bar; then I resubmit the patch. How do they find out whether I actually changed foo to bar? Currently there are two alternatives: 1. trust that I did it 2. review the whole patch again With a distributed SCM, I could just patch the code and commit a new revision in my branch to just change foo to bar, and then the reviewer can check that I truly did what he wanted. Another easy thing to do is to track the current HEAD in a branch of mine. Keeping patches up to date in parallel with other developments is easier. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
Markus Schiltknecht wrote: Most PostgreSQL developers currently want to stay with CVS. Only some desperate souls including myself are fiddling with other VCSes. I think if you took a head count, a majority of developers would probably want to switch, but I doubt that there would be a consensus on what to. -- Peter Eisentraut http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:09:48 -0800, Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: jd I believe that is much more accurate. The reality is, switching to jd something else will be painful. I would prefer not to be on CVS as jd well but it would take a lot of work and cvs does what we need it jd to. I can only tell you my own story, and that's a story of being sick and damn (oh, I've a much stronger word, but I'm too polite to use it here) tired of CVS, especially having had to deal with it's absolute lack of merging capacity. It's taken trying a number of other SCMs, which were all a PITA, until I found monotone, before I decided I had found a worthy replacement. To each his or her own, I say, and as you say, chaging (or moving on) takes some amount of effort, and you will not do it, as a group, before more or less all (especially any core group) thinks it's worth more than staying with the current system. Cheers, Richard -- Richard Levitte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://richard.levitte.org/ When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -- C.S. Lewis ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:38:26 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: markus So far, I'm getting the sense that there are a lot of markus opinions on what replacement system to use, a bit carelessly markus before having answered the above questions thoroughly. markus markus How did you get that impression? You said it yourself: Most PostgreSQL developers currently want to stay with CVS. Unless there's a majority that wants to move on, I doubt there will be a move. In the end, it has to be a group effort, or it will simply not happen. Cheers, Richard - Please consider sponsoring my work on free software. See http://www.free.lp.se/sponsoring.html for details. -- Richard Levitte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://richard.levitte.org/ When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -- C.S. Lewis ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
If I may, I'll add a few words to this discussion: Basically, I'm seeing that three things need to be decided upon: 1. Do you want to stay with CVS or do you want to move to something else? 2. If you want to move, when? Is now a good time, or is it better to look at it another time. This may be a question of what people you have who'd do the job, what kind of time they have for the moment and so on. 3. What would you want a replacement to be able to do? When those questions are answered and people are behind it, then it's time to look at the different systems and see what' the best match to your desires. So far, I'm getting the sense that there are a lot of opinions on what replacement system to use, a bit carelessly before having answered the above questions thoroughly. HTH. Cheers, Richard -- Richard Levitte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://richard.levitte.org/ When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -- C.S. Lewis ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 03:13:49PM +0100, Markus Schiltknecht wrote: one sparc (osol). So far all gcc compiled, AFAIK. I think, that buildbot was gcc on solaris9/sparc. I care for support of monotone built with sunpro on solaris10 (and opensolaris) on x86 and sparc (but no buildbot for those). there was once some work on msvc support, but I have no idea what happened to that. patrick georgi ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [Monotone-devel] Re: [HACKERS] SCMS question
Hi, Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:38:26 +0100, Markus Schiltknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: markus So far, I'm getting the sense that there are a lot of markus opinions on what replacement system to use, a bit carelessly markus before having answered the above questions thoroughly. markus markus How did you get that impression? You said it yourself: Most PostgreSQL developers currently want to stay with CVS. Uh, yah. But I was refering to the lots of opinions on what replacement system to use. This has not much to do with the want or need (for lack of a better alternative) to stay with CVS, IMO. Unless there's a majority that wants to move on, I doubt there will be a move. In the end, it has to be a group effort, or it will simply not happen. I absolutely agree. And I'm quite sure most PostgreSQL developers also know that, thus I don't see much point in warning them - they are resistant enough ;-) As you might have noticed, I myself don't consider monotone ready for use by the PostgreSQL project, yet. And I've never advocated for switching *now*. I only made Tom's point... Regards Markus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
