Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Greg Smith wrote: Let's break this down into individual parts: Great summary. 4) Is vacuuming a challenging I/O demand? Quite. Add all this up, and that fact that you're satisfied with how nice has worked successfully for you doesn't have to conflict with an opinion that it's not the best approach for controlling vacuuming. I just wouldn't extrapolate your experience too far here. I wasn't claiming it's a the best approach for vacuuming. From my first posting in this thread I've been agreeing that vacuum_cost_delay is the better tool for handling vacuum. Just that the original poster also asked for a way of setting priorities so I pointed him to one. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Tom Lane wrote: Ron Mayer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Greg Smith wrote: Count me on the side that agrees adjusting the vacuuming parameters is the more straightforward way to cope with this problem. Agreed for vacuum; but it still seems interesting to me that across databases and workloads high priority transactions tended to get through faster than low priority ones. Is there any reason to believe that the drawbacks of priority inversion outweigh the benefits of setting priorities? Well, it's unclear, and anecdotal evidence is unlikely to convince anybody. I had put some stock in the CMU paper, but if it's based on PG 7.3 then you've got to **seriously** question its relevance to the current code. I was thinking the paper's results might apply more generally to RDBMS-like applications since they did test 3 of them with different locking behavior and different bottlenecks. But true, I should stop bringing up 7.3 examples. Anecdotally ;-) I've found renice-ing reports to help; especially in the (probably not too uncommon case) where slow running batch reporting queries hit different tables than interactive reporting queries. I guess that's why I keep defending priorities as a useful technique. It seems even more useful considering the existence of schedulers that have priority inheritance features. I'll admit there's still the theoretical possibility that it's a foot-gun so I don't mind people having to write their own stored procedure to enable it - but I'd be surprised if anyone could find a real world case where priorities would do more harm than good. Though, yeah, it'd be easy to construct an artificial case that'd demonstrate priority inversion (i.e. have a low priority process that takes a lock and sits and spins on some CPU-intensive stored procedure without doing any I/O). ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
On Fri, 18 May 2007, Ron Mayer wrote: Anecdotally ;-) I've found renice-ing reports to help Let's break this down into individual parts: 1) Is there enough CPU-intensive activity in some database tasks that they can be usefully be controlled by tools like nice? Sure. 2) Is it so likely that you'll fall victim to a priority inversion problem that you shouldn't ever consider that technique? No. 3) Does the I/O scheduler in modern OSes deal with a lot more things than just the CPU? You bet. 4) Is vacuuming a challenging I/O demand? Quite. Add all this up, and that fact that you're satisfied with how nice has worked successfully for you doesn't have to conflict with an opinion that it's not the best approach for controlling vacuuming. I just wouldn't extrapolate your experience too far here. -- * Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 05:10:56PM -0700, Ron Mayer wrote: One way is to write astored procedure that sets it's own priority. An example is here: http://weblog.bignerdranch.com/?p=11 Do you have evidence to show this will actually work consistently? The problem with doing this is that if your process is holding a lock that prevents some other process from doing something, then your lowered priority actually causes that _other_ process to go slower too. This is part of the reason people object to the suggestion that renicing a single back end will help anything. This paper studied both CPU and lock priorities on a variety of databases including PostgreSQL. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~bianca/icde04.pdf By contrast, for PostgreSQL, lock scheduling is not as effective as CPU scheduling (see Figure 4(c)). It is likely that in _some_ cases, you can get this benefit, because you don't have contention issues. The explanation for the good lock performance by Postgres on the TPC-C tests they were using is PostgreSQL's MVCC: Postgres locks less. The problem comes when you have contention, and in that case, CPU scheduling will really hurt. This means that, to use CPU scheduling safely, you have to be really sure that you know what the other transactions are doing. A -- Andrew Sullivan | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Information security isn't a technological problem. It's an economics problem. --Bruce Schneier ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Andrew Sullivan wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 05:10:56PM -0700, Ron Mayer wrote: One way is to write astored procedure that sets it's own priority. An example is here: http://weblog.bignerdranch.com/?p=11 Do you have evidence to show this will actually work consistently? The paper referenced below gives a better explanation than I can. Their conclusion was that on many real-life workloads (including TPC-C and TPC-H like workloads) on many databases (including DB2 and postgresql) the benefits vastly outweighed the disadvantages. The problem with doing this is that if your process is holding a lock that prevents some other process from doing something, then your lowered priority actually causes that _other_ process to go slower too. This is part of the reason people object to the suggestion that renicing a single back end will help anything. Sure. And in the paper they discussed the effect and found that if you do have an OS scheduler than supports priority inheritance the benefits are even bigger than those without it. But even for OS's and scheduler combinations without it the benefits were very significant. This paper studied both CPU and lock priorities on a variety of databases including PostgreSQL. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~bianca/icde04.pdf By contrast, for PostgreSQL, lock scheduling is not as effective as CPU scheduling (see Figure 4(c)). It is likely that in _some_ cases, you can get this benefit, because you don't have contention issues. The explanation for the good lock performance by Postgres on the TPC-C tests they were using is PostgreSQL's MVCC: Postgres locks less. The problem comes when you have contention, and in that case, CPU scheduling will really hurt. This means that, to use CPU scheduling safely, you have to be really sure that you know what the other transactions are doing. Not necessarily. From the wide range of conditions the paper tested I'd say it's more like quicksort - you need to be sure you avoid theoretical pathological conditions that noone (that I can find) has encountered in practice. If you do know of such a workload, I (and imagine the authors of that paper) would be quite interested. Since they showed that the benefits are very real for both TPC-C and TPC-H like workloads I think the burden of proof is now more on the people warning of the (so far theoretical) drawbacks. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Ah, glad this came up again 'cause a problem here caused my original reply to bounce. On Thu, 10 May 2007, Ron Mayer wrote: Actually, CPU priorities _are_ an effective way of indirectly scheduling I/O priorities. This paper studied both CPU and lock priorities on a variety of databases including PostgreSQL. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~bianca/icde04.pdf I spent a fair amount of time analyzing that paper recently, and found it hard to draw any strong current conclusions from it. Locking and related scalability issues are much better now than in the PG 7.3 they tested. For example, from the paper: We find almost all lightweight locking in PostgreSQL fucntions to serialize the I/O buffer pool and WAL activity...as a result, we attribute all the lightweight lock waiting time for the above-listed locks to I/O. Well, sure, if you classify those as I/O waits it's no surprise you can darn near directly control them via CPU scheduling; I question the current relevancy of this historical observation about the old code. I think it's much easier to get into an honest I/O bound situation now with a TPC-C like workload (they kind of cheated on that part too which is a whole 'nother discussion), especially with the even faster speeds of modern processors, and then you're in a situation where CPU scheduling is not so effective for indirectly controlling I/O prioritization. Count me on the side that agrees adjusting the vacuuming parameters is the more straightforward way to cope with this problem. -- * Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Greg Smith wrote: Count me on the side that agrees adjusting the vacuuming parameters is the more straightforward way to cope with this problem. Agreed for vacuum; but it still seems interesting to me that across databases and workloads high priority transactions tended to get through faster than low priority ones. Is there any reason to believe that the drawbacks of priority inversion outweigh the benefits of setting priorities? ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Ron Mayer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Greg Smith wrote: Count me on the side that agrees adjusting the vacuuming parameters is the more straightforward way to cope with this problem. Agreed for vacuum; but it still seems interesting to me that across databases and workloads high priority transactions tended to get through faster than low priority ones. Is there any reason to believe that the drawbacks of priority inversion outweigh the benefits of setting priorities? Well, it's unclear, and anecdotal evidence is unlikely to convince anybody. I had put some stock in the CMU paper, but if it's based on PG 7.3 then you've got to **seriously** question its relevance to the current code. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Dan Harris wrote: Daniel Haensse wrote: Has anybody a nice solution to change process priority? A shell script, maybe even for java? One way is to write astored procedure that sets it's own priority. An example is here: http://weblog.bignerdranch.com/?p=11 While this may technically work, I think it lacks a key point. 'nice' ( at least the versions I'm familiar with ) do not adjust I/O priority. VACUUM is bogging things down because of the extra strain on I/O. CPU usage shouldn't really be much of a factor. Actually, CPU priorities _are_ an effective way of indirectly scheduling I/O priorities. This paper studied both CPU and lock priorities on a variety of databases including PostgreSQL. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~bianca/icde04.pdf By contrast, for PostgreSQL, lock scheduling is not as effective as CPU scheduling (see Figure 4(c)). ... The effectiveness of CPU-Prio for TPC-C on PostgreSQL is surprising, given that I/O (I/O-related lightweight locks) is its bottleneck. Due to CPU prioritization, high-priority transactions are able to request I/O resources before low-priority transactions can. As a result, high-priority transactions wait fewer times (52% fewer) for I/O, and when they do wait, they wait behind fewer transactions (43% fewer). The fact that simple CPU prioritization is able to improve performance so significantly suggests that more complicated I/O scheduling is not always necessary. ... For TPC-C on MVCC DBMS, and in particular PostgreSQL, CPU scheduling is most effective, due to its ability to indirectly schedule the I/O bottleneck. ... For TPC-C running on PostgreSQL, the simplest CPU scheduling policy (CPU-Prio) provides a factor of 2 improvement for high-priority transactions, while adding priority inheritance (CPU-Prio-Inherit) provides a factor of 6 improvement while hardly penalizing low-priority transactions. Preemption (P-CPU) provides no appreciable benefit over CPU-Prio-Inherit Instead, I would recommend looking at vacuum_cost_delay and the related settings to make vacuum lower priority than the queries you care about. This should be a cleaner solution for you. Yeah, that's still true. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
[PERFORM] Background vacuum
Dear list, I'm running postgres on a tomcat server. The vacuum is run every hour (cronjob) which leads to a performance drop of the tomcat applications. I played around with renice command and I think it is possible to reduce this effect which a renice. The problem is how can I figure out the PID of the postmaster performing the vacuum(automated)? Has anybody a nice solution to change process priority? A shell script, maybe even for java? best regards Dani ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [PERFORM] Background vacuum
Daniel Haensse wrote: Dear list, I'm running postgres on a tomcat server. The vacuum is run every hour (cronjob) which leads to a performance drop of the tomcat applications. I played around with renice command and I think it is possible to reduce this effect which a renice. The problem is how can I figure out the PID of the postmaster performing the vacuum(automated)? Has anybody a nice solution to change process priority? A shell script, maybe even for java? While this may technically work, I think it lacks a key point. 'nice' ( at least the versions I'm familiar with ) do not adjust I/O priority. VACUUM is bogging things down because of the extra strain on I/O. CPU usage shouldn't really be much of a factor. Instead, I would recommend looking at vacuum_cost_delay and the related settings to make vacuum lower priority than the queries you care about. This should be a cleaner solution for you. -Dan ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
