Re: [PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 02:15:45PM +0800, Craig Ringer wrote: On 11/08/2012 09:29 PM, Denis wrote: Ok guys, it was not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings by mentioning MySQL. Sorry about that. It's pretty silly to be upset by someone mentioning another DB product. I wouldn't worry. There simply was a project with a similar architecture built using MySQL. When we started the current project, I have made a decision to give PostgreSQL a try. It's certainly interesting that MySQL currently scales to much larger table counts better than PostgreSQL appears to. I'd like to see if this can be improved down the track. Various people are doing work on PostgreSQL scaling and performance, so with luck huge table counts will come into play there. If nothing else, supporting large table counts is important when dealing with very large amounts of data in partitioned tables. I think I saw mention of better performance with higher table counts in 9.3 in -hackers, too. Yes, 9.3 does much better dumping/restoring databases with a large number of tables. I was testing this as part of pg_upgrade performance improvements for large tables. We have a few other things we might try to improve for 9.3 related to caching, but that might not help in this case. -- Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + It's impossible for everything to be true. + -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance
Re: [PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Denis soc...@gmail.com wrote: We have a web application where we create a schema or a database with a number of tables in it for each customer. Now we have about 2600 clients. The problem we met using a separate DB for each client is that the creation of new DB can take up to 2 minutes, that is absolutely unacceptable. Using schemes instead (one DB with a number of schemes containing similar tables in it) solved this problem (schemes are created in a couple of seconds), but created two other blocking points: Sure: db creation can be a bear particularly on servers already under load; it's i/o intensive. I think you made the right choice: it's not a good idea to create databases via user input (but if I *had* to do that, I would probably be pre-creating them). 1. sometimes creation of a new table in a schema takes up to 5 seconds. In case when we have create up to 40 tables in a schema this takes way too much time. How are you creating the tables. What's the iowait on the sever in situations like this? If the file system is binding you here, there's a not a lot you can do other than to try and pre-create or improve i/o performance. 2. pg_dump -n schema_name db_name takes from 30 to 60 seconds, no matter how big is the amount of data in the schema. Also, the dump of the tables structure only takes at least 30 seconds. Basing on this topic http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/pg-dump-and-thousands-of-schemas-td5709766i60.html, pg_dump always analyses ALL the tables in the DB, i.e. in my case more than 100 000 tables. That may be correct. To prove it, try: pg_dump -s -n schema_name db_name where '-s' is the switch to dump only schema. if things are still slow, try logging queries from pg_dump (maybe enable log_min_duration_statement if you can) and maybe something turns up that can be optimized. One you have the query, explain analyze it and post it to the list. postgresql has been continuously improving in terms of bulk table handling over the years and there may be some low hanging fruit there. There may even be some simple database tweaks you can make to improve thing without code changes. Magnus already answered this pretty well, but I'd like to add: the database engine scales pretty well to large amounts of table but in particular cases the tools are not. The reason for this is that the engine deals with internal optimized structures while the tools have to do everything over SQL. That said, there may be some low hanging optimization fruit; it's a lot easier to hack on client side tools vs the backend. I know you guys will ask me about selecting this particular application architecture. Sharding by schema is pretty common actually. 6000 schema holding tables is a lot -- so the question you should be getting is 'given the current state of affairs, have you considered distributing your clients across more than one server'. What if you suddenly sign 10,000 more clients? Different clients have different activity rate and we can select different backup strategies according to it. This would be impossible in case we keep all the clients data in one table. Besides all the above mentioned, the probability of massive data corruption (if an error in our web application occurs) is much higher. sure -- all large databases struggle with backups once the brute force dump starts to become impractical. the way forward is to explore various high availability options -- PITR, HS/SR etc. distributing the backup load across shards is also good as long as your rigorous about not involving any shared structures. Not to start a holywar, but FYI: in a similar project where we used MySQL now we have about 6000 DBs and everything works like a charm. no worries. postgres schemas are fancier than mysql databases and this is one of those things were extra features really do impact performance :-). merlin -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance
[PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
We have a web application where we create a schema or a database with a number of tables in it for each customer. Now we have about 2600 clients. The problem we met using a separate DB for each client is that the creation of new DB can take up to 2 minutes, that is absolutely unacceptable. Using schemes instead (one DB with a number of schemes containing similar tables in it) solved this problem (schemes are created in a couple of seconds), but created two other blocking points: 1. sometimes creation of a new table in a schema takes up to 5 seconds. In case when we have create up to 40 tables in a schema this takes way too much time. 2. pg_dump -n schema_name db_name takes from 30 to 60 seconds, no matter how big is the amount of data in the schema. Also, the dump of the tables structure only takes at least 30 seconds. Basing on this topic http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/pg-dump-and-thousands-of-schemas-td5709766i60.html, pg_dump always analyses ALL the tables in the DB, i.e. in my case more than 100 000 tables. I know you guys will ask me about selecting this particular application architecture. This architecture was chosen to ease the process of backup/restoring data and isolating client's data from each other. Sometimes clients ask us to restore data for the last month or roll back to last week's state. This task is easy to accomplish then the client's data is isolated in a schema/DB. If we put all the clients data in one table - operations of this kind will be much harder to perform. We will have to restore a huge DB with an enormously large tables in it to find the requested data. Sometime client even doesn't remember the exact date, he or she just say I lost my data somewhere between Tuesday and Friday last week and I have to restore backups for several days. If I have one huge table instead of small tables it will be a nightmare! Different clients have different activity rate and we can select different backup strategies according to it. This would be impossible in case we keep all the clients data in one table. Besides all the above mentioned, the probability of massive data corruption (if an error in our web application occurs) is much higher. P.S. Not to start a holywar, but FYI: in a similar project where we used MySQL now we have about 6000 DBs and everything works like a charm. -- View this message in context: http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/Thousands-databases-or-schemas-tp5731189.html Sent from the PostgreSQL - performance mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance
Re: [PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Denis soc...@gmail.com wrote: P.S. Not to start a holywar, but FYI: in a similar project where we used MySQL now we have about 6000 DBs and everything works like a charm. You seem to have answered your own question here. If my recollection of a previous discussion about many schemas and pg_dump performance is accurate, I suspect you are going to be told that you've got a data architecture that is fairly incompatible with postgresql's architecture and you've specifically ruled out a solution that would play to postgresql's strengths.
Re: [PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
Samuel Gendler wrote On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Denis lt; socsam@ gt; wrote: P.S. Not to start a holywar, but FYI: in a similar project where we used MySQL now we have about 6000 DBs and everything works like a charm. You seem to have answered your own question here. If my recollection of a previous discussion about many schemas and pg_dump performance is accurate, I suspect you are going to be told that you've got a data architecture that is fairly incompatible with postgresql's architecture and you've specifically ruled out a solution that would play to postgresql's strengths. Ok guys, it was not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings by mentioning MySQL. Sorry about that. There simply was a project with a similar architecture built using MySQL. When we started the current project, I have made a decision to give PostgreSQL a try. Now I see that the same architecture is not applicable if PostgreSQL is used. I would recommend you to refresh the info here http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/FAQ. There is a question What is the maximum size for a row, a table, and a database?. Please add there info on maximum DBs number and tables number one DB can contain while PostgreSQL continues to work properly. PS: the easiest solution in my case is to create initially 500 DBs (like app_template_[0-500]) and create up to 500 schemas in each of it. This will make 25 possible clients in total. This should be enough. The question is: can you see the possible pitfalls of this solution? -- View this message in context: http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/Thousands-databases-or-schemas-tp5731189p5731203.html Sent from the PostgreSQL - performance mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance
Re: [PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
Hello 2012/11/8 Denis soc...@gmail.com: Samuel Gendler wrote On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Denis lt; socsam@ gt; wrote: P.S. Not to start a holywar, but FYI: in a similar project where we used MySQL now we have about 6000 DBs and everything works like a charm. You seem to have answered your own question here. If my recollection of a previous discussion about many schemas and pg_dump performance is accurate, I suspect you are going to be told that you've got a data architecture that is fairly incompatible with postgresql's architecture and you've specifically ruled out a solution that would play to postgresql's strengths. Ok guys, it was not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings by mentioning MySQL. Sorry about that. There simply was a project with a similar architecture built using MySQL. When we started the current project, I have made a decision to give PostgreSQL a try. Now I see that the same architecture is not applicable if PostgreSQL is used. I would recommend you to refresh the info here http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/FAQ. There is a question What is the maximum size for a row, a table, and a database?. Please add there info on maximum DBs number and tables number one DB can contain while PostgreSQL continues to work properly. PS: the easiest solution in my case is to create initially 500 DBs (like app_template_[0-500]) and create up to 500 schemas in each of it. This will make 25 possible clients in total. This should be enough. The question is: can you see the possible pitfalls of this solution? we use about 2000 databases per warehouse - and it working well, but pg_dumpall doesn't work well in this environment. So we use a different backup methods. Regards Pavel -- View this message in context: http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/Thousands-databases-or-schemas-tp5731189p5731203.html Sent from the PostgreSQL - performance mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance
Re: [PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
On 08/11/12 09:36, Denis wrote: We have a web application where we create a schema or a database with a number of tables in it for each customer. Now we have about 2600 clients. The problem we met using a separate DB for each client is that the creation of new DB can take up to 2 minutes, that is absolutely unacceptable. Using schemes instead (one DB with a number of schemes containing similar tables in it) solved this problem (schemes are created in a couple of seconds), but created two other blocking points: 1. sometimes creation of a new table in a schema takes up to 5 seconds. In case when we have create up to 40 tables in a schema this takes way too much time. 2. pg_dump -n schema_name db_name takes from 30 to 60 seconds, no matter how big is the amount of data in the schema. Also, the dump of the tables structure only takes at least 30 seconds. Basing on this topic http://postgresql.1045698.n5.nabble.com/pg-dump-and-thousands-of-schemas-td5709766i60.html, pg_dump always analyses ALL the tables in the DB, i.e. in my case more than 100 000 tables. The obvious solution would be to write your own version of pg_dump which only examines the tables within a schema. You can even start with the source of the standard pg_dump! However, you could then eliminate the per customer schema/tables and add an extra 'customer' key column on each table. Now you modify pg_dump to only dump the parts of each table matching a given customer id. Mark Thornton -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance
Re: [PERFORM] Thousands databases or schemas
On 11/08/2012 09:29 PM, Denis wrote: Ok guys, it was not my intention to hurt anyone's feelings by mentioning MySQL. Sorry about that. It's pretty silly to be upset by someone mentioning another DB product. I wouldn't worry. There simply was a project with a similar architecture built using MySQL. When we started the current project, I have made a decision to give PostgreSQL a try. It's certainly interesting that MySQL currently scales to much larger table counts better than PostgreSQL appears to. I'd like to see if this can be improved down the track. Various people are doing work on PostgreSQL scaling and performance, so with luck huge table counts will come into play there. If nothing else, supporting large table counts is important when dealing with very large amounts of data in partitioned tables. I think I saw mention of better performance with higher table counts in 9.3 in -hackers, too. I would recommend you to refresh the info here http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/FAQ. There is a question What is the maximum size for a row, a table, and a database?. Please add there info on maximum DBs number and tables number one DB can contain while PostgreSQL continues to work properly. Yeah, a number of people have been thrown by that. Technical limitations aren't the same as practical limitations, and in some cases the practical limitations are lower. The trouble is: How do you put a number to it when something is a slow and gradual drop in performance? And when one person's performs adequately is another's way too slow ? -- Craig Ringer -- Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance
