Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Hi Daniel,

Do you see what I mean by condescending?

On 12.10.12 14:45 , Matijn Woudt wrote:
> Did you really need to use that many words? The answer is pretty
> simple, he's using a crappy mail server..
> 

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek
lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Hello Daniel,

> I briefly glanced, and no more, because anyone with any idea of
> Internet etiquette knows not to forward an entire bunch of junk to a
> public and wholly-unrelated mailing list.  Had you considered the
> appropriate options, such as reading about how to contact us, you'd
> have gotten a response.  Note that the tone of your reply here has
> already changed the tenor of this entire discussion now.

Hmm, that's funny. I sent the mail to the addresses which were listed in the
replies I got. The first mail suggested to use the ml owner, which I did. Then
I got another reply which said the following:

---
This is an automated response to your message to "internals-ow...@lists.php.net"

If you are trying to post to one of the PHP mailing lists, the correct
address looks something like php-general@lists.php.net.

If you are having problems unsubscribing, follow the directions
located online at http://php.net/unsub
---

So the only address that actually seemed to be working was
php-general@lists.php.net

How do you expect me to investigate how to contact the mailing list owners
other than reading the mails I get from the mailing list.

You wrote that 'anyone with any idea of Internet etiquette knows not to
forward an entire bunch of junk to a public and wholly-unrelated mailing list'.
You know, you could also say the following:

Anyone with any idea of Internet etiquette knows that if you send an automated
reply, you also include a correct address to which you can reply to.

Using only addresses that return additional canned responses is against the
Internet etiquette.

It is not my fault that the only address that worked was a totally unrelated
public mailing list.

> And, for the most part, we are (save for a few sentient androids).
>  However, go to news.php.net and look at those bounce messages.  Note
> it's all consecutive, within a relatively small window of time.  Then,
> using your own suggestion about reading the email, look at the bounce
> response: the messages were undeliverable up to a time threshold, when
> the server gave up.  Sounds like there was an issue connecting to your
> SMTP system during that window.  If you have the appropriate access,
> you might want to review your mail logs during this window.

Ok. This makes sense since the mail server was down for several days due to a
HW problem.
But this is something which can happen and I find it rather concerning getting
an email which states that I might be removed w/o further notice.
If the system knows that mails were undeliverable during a certain period,
then there is no reason for sending me a warning. If this happens for 14
consecutive days, then it makes sense to send an email.

> Well, as the adage goes, you'll catch more flies with honey than
> with vinegar.  And considering this is the very first message I've
> ever seen from you, it sounds like either (a) you didn't follow the
> proper protocol, or (b) there's something in the process we need to
> review.  If you think the issue lies on our end, you can submit a bug
> at https://bugs.php.net/ and detail the steps to reproduce the issue.
> If it is indeed something we need to correct, believe me, we will.  We
> don't deliberately attempt to mislead or frustrate people, despite how
> it might have seemed.

I was one of the original developers of the native ibm_db2 driver for PHP. I
also subscribed to the internal mailing list at that time, because I wanted to
work on PHP itself. Unfortunately most developers started to be quite
condescending in this list and thus I never really posted anything to that list.

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek
lookup http://sks.pkqs.net for KeyID 0xC11F128D

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/

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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Matijn Woudt]

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Daniel Brown  wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Helmut Tessarek  wrote:
>> Hello Daniel,
>>
>> I wanted to get an answer to my question (which you would have seen, if you
>> actually had read the mail).
>
> I briefly glanced, and no more, because anyone with any idea of
> Internet etiquette knows not to forward an entire bunch of junk to a
> public and wholly-unrelated mailing list.  Had you considered the
> appropriate options, such as reading about how to contact us, you'd
> have gotten a response.  Note that the tone of your reply here has
> already changed the tenor of this entire discussion now.
>
>> I got a mail that messages bounced from my mail server. So I sent a reply to
>> the list owner to get an explanation how this is possible, since my mail
>> server only rejects mails which are flagged by the clamav milter (and this 
>> did
>> not happen). But then, instead of an answer, I got an automated response,
>> which basically means only one thing: I don't give a damn about your problems
>> and buzz off. Mailing list owners are supposed to be real people, not bots.
>
> And, for the most part, we are (save for a few sentient androids).
>  However, go to news.php.net and look at those bounce messages.  Note
> it's all consecutive, within a relatively small window of time.  Then,
> using your own suggestion about reading the email, look at the bounce
> response: the messages were undeliverable up to a time threshold, when
> the server gave up.  Sounds like there was an issue connecting to your
> SMTP system during that window.  If you have the appropriate access,
> you might want to review your mail logs during this window.
>
>> I'm sorry, I was really irritated by this automated respone. It is not very
>> professional sending people to go in circles.
>
> Well, as the adage goes, you'll catch more flies with honey than
> with vinegar.  And considering this is the very first message I've
> ever seen from you, it sounds like either (a) you didn't follow the
> proper protocol, or (b) there's something in the process we need to
> review.  If you think the issue lies on our end, you can submit a bug
> at https://bugs.php.net/ and detail the steps to reproduce the issue.
> If it is indeed something we need to correct, believe me, we will.  We
> don't deliberately attempt to mislead or frustrate people, despite how
> it might have seemed.
>
> --
> 
> Network Infrastructure Manager
> http://www.php.net/
>

Did you really need to use that many words? The answer is pretty
simple, he's using a crappy mail server..

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Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Daniel Brown]

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Helmut Tessarek  wrote:
> Hello Daniel,
>
> I wanted to get an answer to my question (which you would have seen, if you
> actually had read the mail).

I briefly glanced, and no more, because anyone with any idea of
Internet etiquette knows not to forward an entire bunch of junk to a
public and wholly-unrelated mailing list.  Had you considered the
appropriate options, such as reading about how to contact us, you'd
have gotten a response.  Note that the tone of your reply here has
already changed the tenor of this entire discussion now.

> I got a mail that messages bounced from my mail server. So I sent a reply to
> the list owner to get an explanation how this is possible, since my mail
> server only rejects mails which are flagged by the clamav milter (and this did
> not happen). But then, instead of an answer, I got an automated response,
> which basically means only one thing: I don't give a damn about your problems
> and buzz off. Mailing list owners are supposed to be real people, not bots.

And, for the most part, we are (save for a few sentient androids).
 However, go to news.php.net and look at those bounce messages.  Note
it's all consecutive, within a relatively small window of time.  Then,
using your own suggestion about reading the email, look at the bounce
response: the messages were undeliverable up to a time threshold, when
the server gave up.  Sounds like there was an issue connecting to your
SMTP system during that window.  If you have the appropriate access,
you might want to review your mail logs during this window.

> I'm sorry, I was really irritated by this automated respone. It is not very
> professional sending people to go in circles.

Well, as the adage goes, you'll catch more flies with honey than
with vinegar.  And considering this is the very first message I've
ever seen from you, it sounds like either (a) you didn't follow the
proper protocol, or (b) there's something in the process we need to
review.  If you think the issue lies on our end, you can submit a bug
at https://bugs.php.net/ and detail the steps to reproduce the issue.
If it is indeed something we need to correct, believe me, we will.  We
don't deliberately attempt to mislead or frustrate people, despite how
it might have seemed.

-- 

Network Infrastructure Manager
http://www.php.net/

-- 
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Hello Daniel,

I wanted to get an answer to my question (which you would have seen, if you
actually had read the mail).

I got a mail that messages bounced from my mail server. So I sent a reply to
the list owner to get an explanation how this is possible, since my mail
server only rejects mails which are flagged by the clamav milter (and this did
not happen). But then, instead of an answer, I got an automated response,
which basically means only one thing: I don't give a damn about your problems
and buzz off. Mailing list owners are supposed to be real people, not bots.

I'm sorry, I was really irritated by this automated respone. It is not very
professional sending people to go in circles.

Cheers,
 Helmut

On 12.10.12 14:01 , Daniel Brown wrote:
> What is it you're trying to achieve with the below, Helmut?
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Helmut Tessarek  wrote:
>> Well, this is useful.
>>
>> First I get a a message that the owner of the list is available at
>> internals-ow...@lists.php.net and then I get another automated reply.
>>
>> On 12.10.12 13:48 , PHP Lists Owner wrote:
>>> This is an automated response to your message to 
>>> "internals-ow...@lists.php.net"
>>>
>>> If you are trying to post to one of the PHP mailing lists, the correct
>>> address looks something like php-general@lists.php.net.
>>>
>>> If you are having problems unsubscribing, follow the directions
>>> located online at http://php.net/unsub
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --- Your original email is below.
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Can you please explain to me how this can happen?
>>> My mail server only rejects mails which do not pass the clamav milter and I
>>> haven't seen any virus alerts in the mail log which would refer to the
>>> messages you have mentioned.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>  Helmut
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12.10.12 6:44 , internals-h...@lists.php.net wrote:
 Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
 intern...@lists.php.net mailing list.

 I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
 at internals-ow...@lists.php.net.


 Messages to you from the internals mailing list seem to
 have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
 message I received.

 If this message bounces too, I will send you a probe. If the probe bounces,
 I will remove your address from the internals mailing list,
 without further notice.


 I've kept a list of which messages from the internals mailing list have
 bounced from your address.

 Copies of these messages may be in the archive.

 To retrieve a set of messages 123-145 (a maximum of 100 per request),
 send an empty message to:


 To receive a subject and author list for the last 100 or so messages,
 send an empty message to:


 Here are the message numbers:

63243
63245
63244
63246

 --- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.

 Return-Path: <>
 Received: (qmail 81005 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1)
   by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
 Return-Path: <>
 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([local])
  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with INTERNAL
  id 70/00-15389-30C58605 for <>; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
 From: Mail Delivery System 
 To: internals-return-63243-tessarek=evermeet...@lists.php.net
 Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
 Message-Id: <6E/e1-13052-744d6...@pb1.pair.com>
 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400

 This message was created automatically by the mail system (ecelerity).

 A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
 recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

>>> tessa...@evermeet.cx (while not connected): 554 5.4.7 [internal] 
>>> exceeded max time without delivery

 -- This is a copy of the headers of the original message. --

 Return-Path: 
 X-Host-Fingerprint: 76.75.200.58 pb1.pair.com
 Received: from [76.75.200.58] ([76.75.200.58:4337] helo=lists.php.net)
  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP
  id 6E/E1-13052-744D6605 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 
 06:58:15 -0400
 Received: (qmail 1431 invoked by uid 1010); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
 Mailing-List: contact internals-h...@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
 Precedence: bulk
 list-help: 
 list-unsubscribe: 
 list-post: 
 List-Id: internals.lists.php.net
 Delivered-To: mailing list intern...@lists.php.net
 Received: (qmail 1417 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=tyr...@gmail.com; spf=pass; 
 sender-id=pas

Re: [PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Daniel Brown]

What is it you're trying to achieve with the below, Helmut?


On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Helmut Tessarek  wrote:
> Well, this is useful.
>
> First I get a a message that the owner of the list is available at
> internals-ow...@lists.php.net and then I get another automated reply.
>
> On 12.10.12 13:48 , PHP Lists Owner wrote:
>> This is an automated response to your message to 
>> "internals-ow...@lists.php.net"
>>
>> If you are trying to post to one of the PHP mailing lists, the correct
>> address looks something like php-general@lists.php.net.
>>
>> If you are having problems unsubscribing, follow the directions
>> located online at http://php.net/unsub
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --- Your original email is below.
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Can you please explain to me how this can happen?
>> My mail server only rejects mails which do not pass the clamav milter and I
>> haven't seen any virus alerts in the mail log which would refer to the
>> messages you have mentioned.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>  Helmut
>>
>>
>> On 12.10.12 6:44 , internals-h...@lists.php.net wrote:
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> intern...@lists.php.net mailing list.
>>>
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at internals-ow...@lists.php.net.
>>>
>>>
>>> Messages to you from the internals mailing list seem to
>>> have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
>>> message I received.
>>>
>>> If this message bounces too, I will send you a probe. If the probe bounces,
>>> I will remove your address from the internals mailing list,
>>> without further notice.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've kept a list of which messages from the internals mailing list have
>>> bounced from your address.
>>>
>>> Copies of these messages may be in the archive.
>>>
>>> To retrieve a set of messages 123-145 (a maximum of 100 per request),
>>> send an empty message to:
>>>
>>>
>>> To receive a subject and author list for the last 100 or so messages,
>>> send an empty message to:
>>>
>>>
>>> Here are the message numbers:
>>>
>>>63243
>>>63245
>>>63244
>>>63246
>>>
>>> --- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.
>>>
>>> Return-Path: <>
>>> Received: (qmail 81005 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>>> Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1)
>>>   by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>>> Return-Path: <>
>>> Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([local])
>>>  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with INTERNAL
>>>  id 70/00-15389-30C58605 for <>; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>>> From: Mail Delivery System 
>>> To: internals-return-63243-tessarek=evermeet...@lists.php.net
>>> Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
>>> Message-Id: <6E/e1-13052-744d6...@pb1.pair.com>
>>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>>>
>>> This message was created automatically by the mail system (ecelerity).
>>>
>>> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
>>> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>>>
>> tessa...@evermeet.cx (while not connected): 554 5.4.7 [internal] 
>> exceeded max time without delivery
>>>
>>> -- This is a copy of the headers of the original message. --
>>>
>>> Return-Path: 
>>> X-Host-Fingerprint: 76.75.200.58 pb1.pair.com
>>> Received: from [76.75.200.58] ([76.75.200.58:4337] helo=lists.php.net)
>>>  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP
>>>  id 6E/E1-13052-744D6605 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 
>>> 06:58:15 -0400
>>> Received: (qmail 1431 invoked by uid 1010); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
>>> Mailing-List: contact internals-h...@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
>>> Precedence: bulk
>>> list-help: 
>>> list-unsubscribe: 
>>> list-post: 
>>> List-Id: internals.lists.php.net
>>> Delivered-To: mailing list intern...@lists.php.net
>>> Received: (qmail 1417 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
>>> Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=tyr...@gmail.com; spf=pass; 
>>> sender-id=pass
>>> Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=tyr...@gmail.com; 
>>> sender-id=pass
>>> Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain gmail.com designates 209.85.160.42 
>>> as permitted sender)
>>> X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: tyr...@gmail.com
>>> X-Host-Fingerprint: 209.85.160.42 mail-pb0-f42.google.com
>>> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
>>> d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
>>> 
>>> h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
>>>  :cc:content-type;
>>> bh=prZm0cGKMFMCkD/fbiF1tCeiDSlTMznmUQpVEygTdy0=;
>>> b=TOSHdETdaKP7G5Ou1eBP7tZVyMRgBjAmfZTyGJWi4L3mNrHEVponyIOiJFE9Vl9Qpq
>>>  
>>> k9Th+dyyG39Yqh6QinwAz0CEa2NptoMgeKofnF5MxHxXlq0aykkArjJSBUaHFZxFpaVg
>>>  
>>> 3Pw8mm8Aw3a1FbsZTsbiEIRFPVcUiEJEWPzbATHgw0iS8WFXLH4qkcLYC2tUeGM13koQ
>>>  
>>> rY926iqJEfnSsmegqWWs

[PHP] Re: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Helmut Tessarek]

Well, this is useful.

First I get a a message that the owner of the list is available at
internals-ow...@lists.php.net and then I get another automated reply.

On 12.10.12 13:48 , PHP Lists Owner wrote:
> This is an automated response to your message to 
> "internals-ow...@lists.php.net"
> 
> If you are trying to post to one of the PHP mailing lists, the correct
> address looks something like php-general@lists.php.net.
> 
> If you are having problems unsubscribing, follow the directions
> located online at http://php.net/unsub
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> --- Your original email is below.
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Can you please explain to me how this can happen?
> My mail server only rejects mails which do not pass the clamav milter and I
> haven't seen any virus alerts in the mail log which would refer to the
> messages you have mentioned.
> 
> Cheers,
>  Helmut
> 
> 
> On 12.10.12 6:44 , internals-h...@lists.php.net wrote:
>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>> intern...@lists.php.net mailing list.
>>
>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>> at internals-ow...@lists.php.net.
>>
>>
>> Messages to you from the internals mailing list seem to
>> have been bouncing. I've attached a copy of the first bounce
>> message I received.
>>
>> If this message bounces too, I will send you a probe. If the probe bounces,
>> I will remove your address from the internals mailing list,
>> without further notice.
>>
>>
>> I've kept a list of which messages from the internals mailing list have 
>> bounced from your address.
>>
>> Copies of these messages may be in the archive.
>>
>> To retrieve a set of messages 123-145 (a maximum of 100 per request),
>> send an empty message to:
>>
>>
>> To receive a subject and author list for the last 100 or so messages,
>> send an empty message to:
>>
>>
>> Here are the message numbers:
>>
>>63243
>>63245
>>63244
>>63246
>>
>> --- Enclosed is a copy of the bounce message I received.
>>
>> Return-Path: <>
>> Received: (qmail 81005 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>> Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1)
>>   by localhost with SMTP; 30 Sep 2012 14:49:47 -
>> Return-Path: <>
>> Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([local])
>>  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with INTERNAL
>>  id 70/00-15389-30C58605 for <>; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>> From: Mail Delivery System 
>> To: internals-return-63243-tessarek=evermeet...@lists.php.net
>> Subject: Mail Delivery Failure
>> Message-Id: <6E/e1-13052-744d6...@pb1.pair.com>
>> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 10:49:39 -0400
>>
>> This message was created automatically by the mail system (ecelerity).
>>
>> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
>> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>>
> tessa...@evermeet.cx (while not connected): 554 5.4.7 [internal] exceeded 
> max time without delivery
>>
>> -- This is a copy of the headers of the original message. --
>>
>> Return-Path: 
>> X-Host-Fingerprint: 76.75.200.58 pb1.pair.com  
>> Received: from [76.75.200.58] ([76.75.200.58:4337] helo=lists.php.net)
>>  by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP
>>  id 6E/E1-13052-744D6605 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 
>> 06:58:15 -0400
>> Received: (qmail 1431 invoked by uid 1010); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
>> Mailing-List: contact internals-h...@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
>> Precedence: bulk
>> list-help: 
>> list-unsubscribe: 
>> list-post: 
>> List-Id: internals.lists.php.net
>> Delivered-To: mailing list intern...@lists.php.net
>> Received: (qmail 1417 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2012 10:57:45 -
>> Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=tyr...@gmail.com; spf=pass; 
>> sender-id=pass
>> Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=tyr...@gmail.com; 
>> sender-id=pass
>> Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain gmail.com designates 209.85.160.42 
>> as permitted sender)
>> X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: tyr...@gmail.com
>> X-Host-Fingerprint: 209.85.160.42 mail-pb0-f42.google.com  
>> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
>> d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
>> h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
>>  :cc:content-type;
>> bh=prZm0cGKMFMCkD/fbiF1tCeiDSlTMznmUQpVEygTdy0=;
>> b=TOSHdETdaKP7G5Ou1eBP7tZVyMRgBjAmfZTyGJWi4L3mNrHEVponyIOiJFE9Vl9Qpq
>>  k9Th+dyyG39Yqh6QinwAz0CEa2NptoMgeKofnF5MxHxXlq0aykkArjJSBUaHFZxFpaVg
>>  3Pw8mm8Aw3a1FbsZTsbiEIRFPVcUiEJEWPzbATHgw0iS8WFXLH4qkcLYC2tUeGM13koQ
>>  rY926iqJEfnSsmegqWWs4GLYLiNOJQouvkyYDh+ZLUmHBTqSsubDdLXIB0TltnBJitvy
>>  B/4Jqbm6LmTXwWFqJEfx7HRMkFn90V71fxGYgvAC5VjWeyHLIOOgG7Vz2Nb1vlQ7DA3j
>>  GvEQ==
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>> In-Reply-To: 
>> 
>> References: 
>> 
>> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:57:39 +0200
>> Mes

RE: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[John Moss]

 
Thanks, Alan - I probably should admit to being totally complacent! I
haven't gone back to validate those pages for years (they 'appear' to work)
and am chagrined to find so many errors! I have my work cut out for me - and
honestly appreciate the time you've taken to provide feedback.

Thank you VERY much! 

Also, thanks to everyone who responded to share php "header/footer include'
logic with me. I believe the answer to my 'speed' issue is php caching, and
I'm a happy camper now. I think. :-)

John B. Moss



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan
Milnes
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:52 PM
To: php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

> I am VERY computer literate, and VERY message-oriented ILLITERATE. I 
> have coded HTML for years, and although not a fancy programmer I think 
> my pages are OK. Could be better, but OK. (http://www.miscelpage.com, 
> http://www.boundarycountyfire.com, http://www.curleycreek.com, 
> http://www.theonlinewriter.com, etc. etc., etc)

One thing to watch - it's not strictly a PHP problem but it may influence
the speed of your pages - is that your pages aren't valid html, see the
results from the validator below:-

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boundarycountyfire.com&ch
arset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.miscelpage.com&charset=%2
8detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theonlinewriter.com%2F&ch
arset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

Best to get these fixed before you go much further.

Cheers

Alan


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Re: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Alan Milnes]

> I am VERY computer literate, and VERY message-oriented ILLITERATE. I have
> coded HTML for years, and although not a fancy programmer I think my pages
> are OK. Could be better, but OK. (http://www.miscelpage.com,
> http://www.boundarycountyfire.com, http://www.curleycreek.com,
> http://www.theonlinewriter.com, etc. etc., etc)

One thing to watch - it's not strictly a PHP problem but it may
influence the speed of your pages - is that your pages aren't valid
html, see the results from the validator below:-

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boundarycountyfire.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.miscelpage.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theonlinewriter.com%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

Best to get these fixed before you go much further.

Cheers

Alan

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RE: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[John Moss]

Thanks Jay, I'll try it. 

I know how to include, but haven't seen any php code yet except what you've
illustrated. Now I have the concept and will do some testing. I appreciate
this list being available to ask specific php questions - and I thank you
for your time and help. 

Much appreciated - 

  ~ John

PS. I unsubscribed and resubscribed so as to get individual responses. Am
now definitely getting more mail than I know what to do with - :-)


-Original Message-
From: Jay Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:12 AM
To: John Moss; Daniel Brown; Robert Cummings
Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: RE: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[snip]
Like - what is a
'header'? Everything prior to the  statement? I don't think that's
what is meant...
[/snip]

A header/footer is a separate HTML/PHP page that is included with the page
call;



All you have to do is create the header and/or footer and include them with
each page. Since the content is typically static in these included files
they are cached and therefore loaded from cache each time they are called
making things very quick.

This is your very first step in creating reusable components for your web
applications. You can see that this will become a very powerful
tool/technique.




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RE: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Jay Blanchard]

[snip]
Like - what is a
'header'? Everything prior to the  statement? I don't think that's
what is meant...
[/snip]

A header/footer is a separate HTML/PHP page that is included with the
page call;



All you have to do is create the header and/or footer and include them
with each page. Since the content is typically static in these included
files they are cached and therefore loaded from cache each time they are
called making things very quick.

This is your very first step in creating reusable components for your
web applications. You can see that this will become a very powerful
tool/technique.

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RE: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Jay Blanchard]

[snip]
Hi ~ is there a 'best way' to address a list, like 'Hi everyone'?
[/snip]

'Your royal highnesses' or 'Gurus and Gurettes'

[snip]
As said in a previous message I have many web sites, and lately have run
aground trying to determine how php is able to load related site pages
so
quickly? Is it OK to provide a URL as an illustration of my point - I am
certainly not advertising anything. The site in question belongs to a
volunteer fire department (http://www.mhfd32.com/index.php), and I am
donating my time trying to create a comparable page for my own volunteer
fire department.  What I'm trying to accomplish for myself is the speed
which is evident in loading the centerpieces as you click on the
bulleted
items, left center.
[/snip]

Looks like they are using a basic template with a header, footer and
body. Since the header and footer are cached thy load much more quickly.

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RE: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[John Moss]

Thanks, Daniel, Robert and David ~

I'm struggling to maintain protocol here and I appreciate some of you
mailing me privately. I would prefer to respond and use the list - but I'm
still signed up for once-a-day delivery and have no idea how to change this
option - yet. :-)

I am VERY computer literate, and VERY message-oriented ILLITERATE. I have
coded HTML for years, and although not a fancy programmer I think my pages
are OK. Could be better, but OK. (http://www.miscelpage.com,
http://www.boundarycountyfire.com, http://www.curleycreek.com,
http://www.theonlinewriter.com, etc. etc., etc)

PHP is new to me, and this page - http://www.mhfd32.com/index.php - seems to
fly when loading fresh pages. For example, select 'Apparatus' from the Menu
Options and watch how fast the center of the page loads...

I know about bandwidth and server speed and latency and
hardware/connectivity considerations. I suspect the programmer
implementation of php functionality is the answer to my perceptions. Hence
my dire need to understand how php can help me...  :-) Like - what is a
'header'? Everything prior to the  statement? I don't think that's
what is meant...

John B. Moss

Daniel ~ I got your message, and wonder how to 'modify my preferences'? I
know you suggested I could unsubscribe and re-subscribe at the
http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php link - is there a faster (better) way?
Thank you.  

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:16 AM
To: Robert Cummings
Cc: John Moss; php-general@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

On 10/31/07, Robert Cummings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 07:29 -0700, John Moss wrote:
> > Thank you, Daniel Brown, Richard Buskirk, Robert Cummings, David 
> > Giragosian ~ and anyone else who may have jumped in to my message 
> > within the last minute or two, trying to help me.

No problem!

> > I realize that I
> > might not be permitted to show a page (provide a URL) as an 
> > illustration of my point - I am certainly not advertising anything. 
> > The site in question belongs to a volunteer fire department, and I 
> > am donating my time trying to create a comparable page for my own
volunteer fire department.

You're not only allowed to post links, but you're encouraged to do so,
especially if there's a problem or error message that we should be able to
see to help you to debug the issue.  So feel free to post links to examples,
so long as it's not SPAM'ing the hell out of the list for penis pills and
the like.  I'm sure you'll find more than one (myself included) volunteer
firefighters, EMTs, and rescuers on here, in fact.

> PHP is merely an interpreter. The speed of any page to load in a 
> browser depends on a number of factors. Four of the most important 
> factors are the following:
>
> 1. what is being loaded? How much programming is necessary to
>achieve the outcome.
>
> 2. How fast is the server hardware that handles the processing.
>
> 3. How good is the connection to the remote server. This includes
>both bandwidth and latency (latency being the round trip time
>to make a request of any kind for the server).
>
> 4. How well did the programmer implement the functionality
>needed. It's one thing to have a heavy load of processing,
>it's another to use bad algorthms that bog down the server.

Adding to Rob's points, it should be expanded on Point #3 that traffic
will also be a major factor in the available bandwidth and latency.  And to
further the latency point, the "round-trip" time will usually take longer,
logically, if your server is across the country than, say, in your home
county.  So the site you'd like to mimic may be hosted nearer to you than
the physical machine hosting your department's current website.  Keep in
mind that, for locally-oriented websites, it's best to host as local as
possible, since that's from where the vast majority of your traffic will
originate.  Finally on that point, browser processing speeds (due to local
CPU/RAM/other
constraints) may have either a positive or negative impact on the
experience.

Expanding Point #1, keep in mind that graphic- and media-intensive
websites (including Flash) will no doubt take longer to fully load.

Lastly, expanding on Point #4, not only does it depend on how well the
underlying code was written, but also how much pre-processing is required of
PHP (or whatever server-side dynamic language is being
used) for each time the page is requested.  If there is caching in place, or
functions and routines are only called when absolutely necessary.


My ma

Re: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Daniel Brown]

Let's fix this issue first so that you can start a regular list
thread on here and we can keep things in order on the list and in the
archives for future web searchers as well.

On 10/31/07, John Moss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Daniel ~ I got your message, and wonder how to 'modify my preferences'? I
> know you suggested I could unsubscribe and re-subscribe at the
> http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php link - is there a faster (better) way?
> Thank you.

There should be a better way, yes, in using
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  However, my wonder is if the messages
that PHP's ezmlm attempted to send you are stuck in your SPAM trap,
since the ezmlm robot can't confirm itself and type in the CAPTCHA
code required.  Check in there first and see if there's anything you
need to confirm, and also be sure to allow all messages from all
addresses you expect to reply to yours to be allowed to do so without
question.

Again, you may want to set up a separate email account just for
the list.  I can send you over a Gmail invite if you'd like one and
you can even use it as another POP3/IMAP account, if that's how you
currently get your mail.

I'm not sure if Gmail invites are necessary anymore (I know there
was an SMS alternative a while back), but I still have a bunch left.
So that offer stands for anyone else who may want a Gmail account and
hasn't yet been able to get one.  ;-P

-- 
Daniel P. Brown
[office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272
[mobile] (570-) 766-8107

Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.  Then you'll find out he was
allergic and is hospitalized.  See?  No good deed goes unpunished

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Re: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Daniel Brown]

On 10/31/07, John Moss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi ~ is there a 'best way' to address a list, like 'Hi everyone'?

It's all personal preference, really.  Although you may wish to
refrain from "Yo, [EMAIL PROTECTED]@#%"

> I am certainly not advertising anything. The site in question belongs to a
> volunteer fire department (http://www.mhfd32.com/index.php), and I am
> donating my time trying to create a comparable page for my own volunteer
> fire department.  What I'm trying to accomplish for myself is the speed
> which is evident in loading the centerpieces as you click on the bulleted
> items, left center.

I didn't happen to notice the bulleted items you mentioned.  However,
if you check http://www.mhfd32.com/header.php you'll see that they're
using a single header, which the browser caches, and allows for a
quicker page load, if that's what you were curious about.  That's done
just by designing the header like they've done, and then just doing an
 - or whatever your header file is named -
prior to displaying the rest of the page.

> A list-related question: I signed up for getting my messages all together
> once a day - how do I change this request? I run afoul of the mail protocols
> and had a deuce of a time just getting this far? If you are replying to me
> in the list - sigh - I cannot see it yet. If ever :-(

If you're unable to simply modify your preferences, you could
unsubscribe and re-subscribe at the
http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php link I sent you earlier, with
"Normal" selected instead of "Digest" when you re-subscribe.  And also
be sure to hit "Reply All" instead of simply "Reply" when sending
messages to the list.

-- 
Daniel P. Brown
[office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272
[mobile] (570-) 766-8107

Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.  Then you'll find out he was
allergic and is hospitalized.  See?  No good deed goes unpunished

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[PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[John Moss]

 

Hi ~ is there a 'best way' to address a list, like 'Hi everyone'?

As said in a previous message I have many web sites, and lately have run
aground trying to determine how php is able to load related site pages so
quickly? Is it OK to provide a URL as an illustration of my point - I am
certainly not advertising anything. The site in question belongs to a
volunteer fire department (http://www.mhfd32.com/index.php), and I am
donating my time trying to create a comparable page for my own volunteer
fire department.  What I'm trying to accomplish for myself is the speed
which is evident in loading the centerpieces as you click on the bulleted
items, left center.

A list-related question: I signed up for getting my messages all together
once a day - how do I change this request? I run afoul of the mail protocols
and had a deuce of a time just getting this far? If you are replying to me
in the list - sigh - I cannot see it yet. If ever :-(

John B. Moss



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Re: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Daniel Brown]

On 10/31/07, Robert Cummings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 07:29 -0700, John Moss wrote:
> > Thank you, Daniel Brown, Richard Buskirk, Robert Cummings, David Giragosian
> > ~ and anyone else who may have jumped in to my message within the last
> > minute or two, trying to help me.

No problem!

> > I realize that I
> > might not be permitted to show a page (provide a URL) as an illustration of
> > my point - I am certainly not advertising anything. The site in question
> > belongs to a volunteer fire department, and I am donating my time trying to
> > create a comparable page for my own volunteer fire department.

You're not only allowed to post links, but you're encouraged to do so,
especially if there's a problem or error message that we should be
able to see to help you to debug the issue.  So feel free to post
links to examples, so long as it's not SPAM'ing the hell out of the
list for penis pills and the like.  I'm sure you'll find more than one
(myself included) volunteer firefighters, EMTs, and rescuers on here,
in fact.

> PHP is merely an interpreter. The speed of any page to load in a browser
> depends on a number of factors. Four of the most important factors are
> the following:
>
> 1. what is being loaded? How much programming is necessary to
>achieve the outcome.
>
> 2. How fast is the server hardware that handles the processing.
>
> 3. How good is the connection to the remote server. This includes
>both bandwidth and latency (latency being the round trip time
>to make a request of any kind for the server).
>
> 4. How well did the programmer implement the functionality
>needed. It's one thing to have a heavy load of processing,
>it's another to use bad algorthms that bog down the server.

Adding to Rob's points, it should be expanded on Point #3 that
traffic will also be a major factor in the available bandwidth and
latency.  And to further the latency point, the "round-trip" time will
usually take longer, logically, if your server is across the country
than, say, in your home county.  So the site you'd like to mimic may
be hosted nearer to you than the physical machine hosting your
department's current website.  Keep in mind that, for locally-oriented
websites, it's best to host as local as possible, since that's from
where the vast majority of your traffic will originate.  Finally on
that point, browser processing speeds (due to local CPU/RAM/other
constraints) may have either a positive or negative impact on the
experience.

Expanding Point #1, keep in mind that graphic- and media-intensive
websites (including Flash) will no doubt take longer to fully load.

Lastly, expanding on Point #4, not only does it depend on how well
the underlying code was written, but also how much pre-processing is
required of PHP (or whatever server-side dynamic language is being
used) for each time the page is requested.  If there is caching in
place, or functions and routines are only called when absolutely
necessary.

-- 
Daniel P. Brown
[office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272
[mobile] (570-) 766-8107

Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.  Then you'll find out he was
allergic and is hospitalized.  See?  No good deed goes unpunished

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Re: [PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[Robert Cummings]

On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 07:29 -0700, John Moss wrote:
> Thank you, Daniel Brown, Richard Buskirk, Robert Cummings, David Giragosian
> ~ and anyone else who may have jumped in to my message within the last
> minute or two, trying to help me.
> 
> Below is the message I was writing to ask someone (who I didn't know) just
> how to participate in a mailing list. I've never done this - but it seems
> all I had to do was send a message to this address. Strange. For me, strange
> indeed. But - I am appreciative of the concept and a little bewildered by
> the options that seem to be available... 
> 
> OK - stupidity aside - I have a real question and don't know how to find an
> answer. I write html, have for years. I have many web sites, and lately have
> run aground trying to determine how my competition is able to load pages
> exceedingly fast. It appears the site uses php, and crosslinks to pages
> within the site load blindingly fast. There does not appear to be frames
> involved, but the tables that contain the web page bracket a display area in
> the center of each page that makes the site appear to be frame oriented. My
> question: how is php able to load this page so quickly? I realize that I
> might not be permitted to show a page (provide a URL) as an illustration of
> my point - I am certainly not advertising anything. The site in question
> belongs to a volunteer fire department, and I am donating my time trying to
> create a comparable page for my own volunteer fire department. I just can't
> seem to figure out what this php is all about and how it might help load a
> page so fast.

PHP is merely an interpreter. The speed of any page to load in a browser
depends on a number of factors. Four of the most important factors are
the following:

1. what is being loaded? How much programming is necessary to
   achieve the outcome.

2. How fast is the server hardware that handles the processing.

3. How good is the connection to the remote server. This includes
   both bandwidth and latency (latency being the round trip time
   to make a request of any kind for the server).

4. How well did the programmer implement the functionality
   needed. It's one thing to have a heavy load of processing,
   it's another to use bad algorthms that bog down the server.

Cheers,
Rob.
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[PHP] RE: Reaching the PHP mailing list owners

[John Moss]

Thank you, Daniel Brown, Richard Buskirk, Robert Cummings, David Giragosian
~ and anyone else who may have jumped in to my message within the last
minute or two, trying to help me.

Below is the message I was writing to ask someone (who I didn't know) just
how to participate in a mailing list. I've never done this - but it seems
all I had to do was send a message to this address. Strange. For me, strange
indeed. But - I am appreciative of the concept and a little bewildered by
the options that seem to be available... 

OK - stupidity aside - I have a real question and don't know how to find an
answer. I write html, have for years. I have many web sites, and lately have
run aground trying to determine how my competition is able to load pages
exceedingly fast. It appears the site uses php, and crosslinks to pages
within the site load blindingly fast. There does not appear to be frames
involved, but the tables that contain the web page bracket a display area in
the center of each page that makes the site appear to be frame oriented. My
question: how is php able to load this page so quickly? I realize that I
might not be permitted to show a page (provide a URL) as an illustration of
my point - I am certainly not advertising anything. The site in question
belongs to a volunteer fire department, and I am donating my time trying to
create a comparable page for my own volunteer fire department. I just can't
seem to figure out what this php is all about and how it might help load a
page so fast.

Below is from that original behemoth of a message that you all laughed at...
Thank you for your time!

John B. Moss

I feel so stupid! I am trying to learn php, so am attempting to get involved
with a php-related mailing list. The problem: I have no familiarity - none -
with mailing list protocols. So - it seems simple - get on a mailing list,
ask for help in getting through what I need to know, then participate as my
need to know directs me.

I find a mailing list related to php - I think. Seems right -
"lists.php.net". I 'subscribe' (I think) to a 'General user list' which
suggests "This is a really high volume general list for PHP users". I think
this is what I want - but I have no idea what subscribing to it means, other
than to suppose that I will get some emails from the group. I chose to get
the 'Digest', as opposed to the 'Normal', list since I interpret this to
mean I get 1 (or 2) mailings a day with many messages embedded, as opposed
to many many messages all day long, all the time. Since I have no idea (and
doubt) that I am interested in all of these, and since I want to pick and
choose what I read, I'm guessing the 'Digest' suits my purpose.

Problem: how to see what's actually involved, once I receive my subscription
confirmation? It seems to me that a 'help' function is the answer, but -
look below -  when I send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I receive
this message in response! Repeating the request means getting this response
each time! Apart from feeling that this is insane, where do I turn? How do I
find out what is on the list, begin receiving messages, and determine the
protocol for participating?

For folks who have been on mailing lists since the beginning of the web,
this all seems foolish I'm sure. But if I can't take the suggestion for
accessing help literally (why not?) it seems there should be a logical
substitution argument that would apply. To explain: if in the example I am
to replace 'lists.php.net' with something else, in order to get general
help, what might that something else be? Where do I deduce the
name/replacement value? Why don't the instructions for doing this exist? Why
isn't there 'Help' for getting 'help'?

I can read as well as the next person:  "This is a generic help message. The
message I received wasn't sent to any of my command addresses." What is
meant by the term 'my command addresses'? I sent the message as explicitly
directed. If the 'command address' is something which replaces
'lists.php.net' how am I to understand that, if directed to get help and a
description of available commands from that address?

I am attempting to send this message directly, but if this fails I will
attempt the 'Forward:' technique, as explained also below. 

John B. Moss


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