Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
Paul M Foster wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 05:47:12PM -0700, Kris Craig wrote: > >> I did a lot better after I started charging $100/hr for my work. A >> *lot* better! This was after my research showed that PHP development >> firms generally charge a minimum of $80/hr for PHP work, and can go >> as >> high as $200/hr. So if you're going at $20/hr, the companies with >> deep pockets probably won't take you seriously, and the clients you >> do get will be the ones who want a ton of work done but don't have >> the >> budget available to make it worth your while. Those are the clients >> who will take advantage of you if you're not careful. > > +1 > > I can't explain this phenomenon, but I've seen it before, and it's > exactly as Kris has described. A lot of people believe that if you don't pay for it, it's not worth anything. We all know that doesn't apply to everything (e.g. not open source software), but when you're paying an individual for a job, well -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.8°C) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
Alrighty, thanks for waiting. I've posted the files here: http://freelancetools.sourceforge.net/ Currently, there are two documents there: A general contract and a statement of work (SOW) contract. Typically, the general contract would be signed first, essentially laying out the overall terms of the business relationship. Then, the SOW is signed, which outlines the specifics of the project (work to be done, budget, payment schedule, etc). You'll want to read each document carefully. At the top, you'll want to replace the generic information with yours and your client's. After the first paragraph of each document, both parties are referred to as "Client" and "Provider," so you won't have to change names in a whole bunch of places. The SOW provided contains budget/work for a hypothetical sample project; you will want to replace this with the details of the actual project you're working on. I may add more stuff later, like SEO scripts and whatnot I've created over the years, but for now this should at least help you with your current situation. Everything uploaded to the project URL above is in the public domain, which means you are free to do with it as you please. And, as always, use it at your own risk. Please feel free to let me know if you have any questions/feedback/etc. I hope this helps. =) --Kris Kris, the documentation is excellent! Thank you very much for the resource. I think once this is provided to my client it will definitely reflect how serious the client is about the project, and give me some relief going forward. Thank you sir. Ervin -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
Alrighty, thanks for waiting. I've posted the files here: http://freelancetools.sourceforge.net/ Currently, there are two documents there: A general contract and a statement of work (SOW) contract. Typically, the general contract would be signed first, essentially laying out the overall terms of the business relationship. Then, the SOW is signed, which outlines the specifics of the project (work to be done, budget, payment schedule, etc). You'll want to read each document carefully. At the top, you'll want to replace the generic information with yours and your client's. After the first paragraph of each document, both parties are referred to as "Client" and "Provider," so you won't have to change names in a whole bunch of places. The SOW provided contains budget/work for a hypothetical sample project; you will want to replace this with the details of the actual project you're working on. I may add more stuff later, like SEO scripts and whatnot I've created over the years, but for now this should at least help you with your current situation. Everything uploaded to the project URL above is in the public domain, which means you are free to do with it as you please. And, as always, use it at your own risk. Please feel free to let me know if you have any questions/feedback/etc. I hope this helps. =) --Kris On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Kris Craig wrote: > I've had a few emails from people making the same request, so what I'm > gonna do is stick them up someplace public like SourceForge or > whatever in the public domain for anyone who wants them. > > Legal disclaimer: Please note that, though these have been reviewed > by the legal departments of my past clients, I myself am not a lawyer > and can offer no warranty regarding these documents. If you have any > questions/concerns about any part of either of the documents, I would > strongly advise you to consult an attorney who specializes in contract > law. There is no lifeguard on duty. Batteries not included. So > there. > > > Now that that's out of the way, I'll get those up either tomorrow or > Monday then post a link here. I hope this helps. =) > > --Kris > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Jason Pruim > wrote: >> >> On Oct 20, 2010, at 8:47 PM, Kris Craig wrote: >>> >>> >>> I hope this helps. If you like, I'd be happy to email you a sample >>> copy of the SOW/contract I've used with past clients. >> >> Hey Kris, >> >> If you don't mind I would love a copy my self! I have started doing some >> freelance work and I'm always looking for info that I can use :) >> >> Jason Pruim >> >> > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Paul M Foster wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 05:47:12PM -0700, Kris Craig wrote: > > > Hi musicdev, > > > > There are a couple issues I think need to be addressed with what youd > > described. First and foremost, $20/hr is considerably below the going > > rate for PHP work, especially for projects as large as the one you're > > talking about. > > > > I used to do freelance PHP work for about 5 years before I went to > > work for Microsoft, and when I originally started I was just charging > > about 20 bucks an hour as well. It proved to be a disaster. Contrary > > to what common sense might tell you, I've found that lower-budget > > clients always produce the most drama, are the most demanding, and > > least reliable when it comes to paying the invoices on-time. > > Furthermore, larger clients will generally ignore you in favor of > > developers who charge more, the mindset being that, if you're charging > > such a low amount, the quality of your work probably isn't that good. > > > > I did a lot better after I started charging $100/hr for my work. A > > *lot* better! This was after my research showed that PHP development > > firms generally charge a minimum of $80/hr for PHP work, and can go as > > high as $200/hr. So if you're going at $20/hr, the companies with > > deep pockets probably won't take you seriously, and the clients you do > > get will be the ones who want a ton of work done but don't have the > > budget available to make it worth your while. Those are the clients > > who will take advantage of you if you're not careful. > > +1 > > I can't explain this phenomenon, but I've seen it before, and it's > exactly as Kris has described. > > Paul > > +1 with kris :) ( from EU ) -- Ricardo ___
Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
I've had a few emails from people making the same request, so what I'm gonna do is stick them up someplace public like SourceForge or whatever in the public domain for anyone who wants them. Legal disclaimer: Please note that, though these have been reviewed by the legal departments of my past clients, I myself am not a lawyer and can offer no warranty regarding these documents. If you have any questions/concerns about any part of either of the documents, I would strongly advise you to consult an attorney who specializes in contract law. There is no lifeguard on duty. Batteries not included. So there. Now that that's out of the way, I'll get those up either tomorrow or Monday then post a link here. I hope this helps. =) --Kris On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Jason Pruim wrote: > > On Oct 20, 2010, at 8:47 PM, Kris Craig wrote: >> >> >> I hope this helps. If you like, I'd be happy to email you a sample >> copy of the SOW/contract I've used with past clients. > > Hey Kris, > > If you don't mind I would love a copy my self! I have started doing some > freelance work and I'm always looking for info that I can use :) > > Jason Pruim > > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 05:47:12PM -0700, Kris Craig wrote: > Hi musicdev, > > There are a couple issues I think need to be addressed with what youd > described. First and foremost, $20/hr is considerably below the going > rate for PHP work, especially for projects as large as the one you're > talking about. > > I used to do freelance PHP work for about 5 years before I went to > work for Microsoft, and when I originally started I was just charging > about 20 bucks an hour as well. It proved to be a disaster. Contrary > to what common sense might tell you, I've found that lower-budget > clients always produce the most drama, are the most demanding, and > least reliable when it comes to paying the invoices on-time. > Furthermore, larger clients will generally ignore you in favor of > developers who charge more, the mindset being that, if you're charging > such a low amount, the quality of your work probably isn't that good. > > I did a lot better after I started charging $100/hr for my work. A > *lot* better! This was after my research showed that PHP development > firms generally charge a minimum of $80/hr for PHP work, and can go as > high as $200/hr. So if you're going at $20/hr, the companies with > deep pockets probably won't take you seriously, and the clients you do > get will be the ones who want a ton of work done but don't have the > budget available to make it worth your while. Those are the clients > who will take advantage of you if you're not careful. +1 I can't explain this phenomenon, but I've seen it before, and it's exactly as Kris has described. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
On Oct 20, 2010, at 8:47 PM, Kris Craig wrote: I hope this helps. If you like, I'd be happy to email you a sample copy of the SOW/contract I've used with past clients. Hey Kris, If you don't mind I would love a copy my self! I have started doing some freelance work and I'm always looking for info that I can use :) Jason Pruim -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
Thanks Jason, Alexis and Kris. I appreciate the time taken to respond. Kris, you definitely touched upon a few of my current concerns. Gladly I have not quoted the client at $20 p/h. I can definitely confirm that the characteristics you described are already taking place (drama and quite demanding). I definitely like the suggestion from yourself, Jason and Alexis which is to work on the bare minimum and cost extra development accordingly...and, not under-cost my work for fear or consideration to the client's state in terms of budget. Kris, I greatly appreciate the offer for your SOW/contract sample. Please send it my way when you have a chance. Thanks again for all the great responses and excellent suggestions. Regards, Ervin -- From: "Kris Craig" Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:47 PM To: Subject: [PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions Hi musicdev, There are a couple issues I think need to be addressed with what youd described. First and foremost, $20/hr is considerably below the going rate for PHP work, especially for projects as large as the one you're talking about. I used to do freelance PHP work for about 5 years before I went to work for Microsoft, and when I originally started I was just charging about 20 bucks an hour as well. It proved to be a disaster. Contrary to what common sense might tell you, I've found that lower-budget clients always produce the most drama, are the most demanding, and least reliable when it comes to paying the invoices on-time. Furthermore, larger clients will generally ignore you in favor of developers who charge more, the mindset being that, if you're charging such a low amount, the quality of your work probably isn't that good. I did a lot better after I started charging $100/hr for my work. A *lot* better! This was after my research showed that PHP development firms generally charge a minimum of $80/hr for PHP work, and can go as high as $200/hr. So if you're going at $20/hr, the companies with deep pockets probably won't take you seriously, and the clients you do get will be the ones who want a ton of work done but don't have the budget available to make it worth your while. Those are the clients who will take advantage of you if you're not careful. With your specific dilemma, if you already quoted $20/hr then of course you should honor that. However, I would strongly suggest that you do *not* allow the client to determine the cost of the deliverables after the work has already been done. Nine times out of ten you will get taken advantage of, because the client knows you already did the work which means they have all the leverage. After all, ten cents on the dollar is better than zero, right? You don't want to put yourself in that situation. Instead, here's what I would suggest: Work with the client to determine a bare minimum of work that would need to be done for the "first phase." Based off the $20/hr you quoted, determine how many hours that will take and give them a quote. Then, develop a statement of work document (that both you and the client will have to sign) for that phase, outlining specifically what work will be done and break it up into deliverable pieces. Upon completion of each "chunk" of work, a percentage of the total quote will be due. This ensures that you get paid for your work and that the client receives the work s/he is paying for. It also breaks-up the payment schedule so that it's a bit easier on the client's budget. If the client runs out of money midway through or whatever, you simply suspend work until they get more funds and then resume where you left off. I've found this model to be the most successful on projects like this. I hope this helps. If you like, I'd be happy to email you a sample copy of the SOW/contract I've used with past clients. --Kris -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Independent Contractor Suggestions
Hi musicdev, There are a couple issues I think need to be addressed with what youd described. First and foremost, $20/hr is considerably below the going rate for PHP work, especially for projects as large as the one you're talking about. I used to do freelance PHP work for about 5 years before I went to work for Microsoft, and when I originally started I was just charging about 20 bucks an hour as well. It proved to be a disaster. Contrary to what common sense might tell you, I've found that lower-budget clients always produce the most drama, are the most demanding, and least reliable when it comes to paying the invoices on-time. Furthermore, larger clients will generally ignore you in favor of developers who charge more, the mindset being that, if you're charging such a low amount, the quality of your work probably isn't that good. I did a lot better after I started charging $100/hr for my work. A *lot* better! This was after my research showed that PHP development firms generally charge a minimum of $80/hr for PHP work, and can go as high as $200/hr. So if you're going at $20/hr, the companies with deep pockets probably won't take you seriously, and the clients you do get will be the ones who want a ton of work done but don't have the budget available to make it worth your while. Those are the clients who will take advantage of you if you're not careful. With your specific dilemma, if you already quoted $20/hr then of course you should honor that. However, I would strongly suggest that you do *not* allow the client to determine the cost of the deliverables after the work has already been done. Nine times out of ten you will get taken advantage of, because the client knows you already did the work which means they have all the leverage. After all, ten cents on the dollar is better than zero, right? You don't want to put yourself in that situation. Instead, here's what I would suggest: Work with the client to determine a bare minimum of work that would need to be done for the "first phase." Based off the $20/hr you quoted, determine how many hours that will take and give them a quote. Then, develop a statement of work document (that both you and the client will have to sign) for that phase, outlining specifically what work will be done and break it up into deliverable pieces. Upon completion of each "chunk" of work, a percentage of the total quote will be due. This ensures that you get paid for your work and that the client receives the work s/he is paying for. It also breaks-up the payment schedule so that it's a bit easier on the client's budget. If the client runs out of money midway through or whatever, you simply suspend work until they get more funds and then resume where you left off. I've found this model to be the most successful on projects like this. I hope this helps. If you like, I'd be happy to email you a sample copy of the SOW/contract I've used with past clients. --Kris -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
