Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michiel Sikma]

On 25 April 2010 09:31, Per Jessen  wrote:

>
> >> Doesn't WoW need DirectX and all that?  I have some old Windows games
> >> (Diablo, Alpha Centauri, Railroad Tycoon, Wolfenstein) I'd love to
> >> play under Wine, but so far I've not managed to make them work.
> >>
> >>
> > The best way to run old games is via DOSBox. http://www.dosbox.com/
>
> Yes, I do use that too, but will it also run Windows games??
>
>
>
Ah, you're right, I misread. But I believe all of those games except Diablo
will run under DOS as well. DOSBox can also run up to Windows 3.11.

Michiel

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Per Jessen]

Michiel Sikma wrote:

> On 24 April 2010 16:14, Per Jessen  wrote:
> 
>> Ashley Sheridan wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Is there an actual WoW client for Linux or you run in Wine like
>> >> environment?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Tommy
>> >>
>> >
>> > I run it under Wine. Wine has come a long way since my first
>> > encounters with it a few years back and run a surprising amount of
>> > Windows-based software.
>>
>> Doesn't WoW need DirectX and all that?  I have some old Windows games
>> (Diablo, Alpha Centauri, Railroad Tycoon, Wolfenstein) I'd love to
>> play under Wine, but so far I've not managed to make them work.
>>
>>
> The best way to run old games is via DOSBox. http://www.dosbox.com/ 

Yes, I do use that too, but will it also run Windows games?? 



-- 
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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michiel Sikma]

On 24 April 2010 16:14, Per Jessen  wrote:

> Ashley Sheridan wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Is there an actual WoW client for Linux or you run in Wine like
> >> environment?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Tommy
> >>
> >
> > I run it under Wine. Wine has come a long way since my first
> > encounters with it a few years back and run a surprising amount of
> > Windows-based software.
>
> Doesn't WoW need DirectX and all that?  I have some old Windows games
> (Diablo, Alpha Centauri, Railroad Tycoon, Wolfenstein) I'd love to play
> under Wine, but so far I've not managed to make them work.
>
>
The best way to run old games is via DOSBox. http://www.dosbox.com/ If you
have an Intel machine it should run pretty well (at least the latest version
will; some repos still have the old 0.65 version which is significantly
slower).

Michiel

RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Sat, 2010-04-24 at 16:14 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

> Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> 
> >> 
> >> Is there an actual WoW client for Linux or you run in Wine like
> >> environment?
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> Tommy
> >> 
> > 
> > I run it under Wine. Wine has come a long way since my first
> > encounters with it a few years back and run a surprising amount of
> > Windows-based software. 
> 
> Doesn't WoW need DirectX and all that?  I have some old Windows games
> (Diablo, Alpha Centauri, Railroad Tycoon, Wolfenstein) I'd love to play
> under Wine, but so far I've not managed to make them work. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Per Jessen, Zürich (19.7°C)
> 
> 


It can use OpenGL too. Just call it like this:

wine Wow.exe -opengl

and it will run in OpenGL mode. The only issue I've noticed is that Wine
doesn't play well when it comes to sound, so I have to turn off things
like Amarok when I want to play WoW.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Per Jessen]

Ashley Sheridan wrote:

>> 
>> Is there an actual WoW client for Linux or you run in Wine like
>> environment?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Tommy
>> 
> 
> I run it under Wine. Wine has come a long way since my first
> encounters with it a few years back and run a surprising amount of
> Windows-based software. 

Doesn't WoW need DirectX and all that?  I have some old Windows games
(Diablo, Alpha Centauri, Railroad Tycoon, Wolfenstein) I'd love to play
under Wine, but so far I've not managed to make them work. 


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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Sat, 2010-04-24 at 15:44 +0200, Michiel Sikma wrote:

> On 23 April 2010 16:16, Kevin Kinsey  wrote:
> 
> >
> > I've still got a Win98 box in service somewhere around here; I use
> > it for audio recording.  Someone (possibly even me) renamed most
> > of the desktop icons ... OE's shortcut is "Outluck Depress".  :-)
> >
> > Kevin D. Kinsey
> >
> >
> Say what you will about Windows 9x systems, but they (and especially Windows
> 95) ran rather well on just 60 MHz.
> Sure, computers are constantly getting faster, but fortunately software
> developers keep coming up with new ways to make us wait. :)
> 
> Michiel


Sounds like a decent reason to try Linux then. Linux performs pretty
admirably on older kit.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michiel Sikma]

On 23 April 2010 16:16, Kevin Kinsey  wrote:

>
> I've still got a Win98 box in service somewhere around here; I use
> it for audio recording.  Someone (possibly even me) renamed most
> of the desktop icons ... OE's shortcut is "Outluck Depress".  :-)
>
> Kevin D. Kinsey
>
>
Say what you will about Windows 9x systems, but they (and especially Windows
95) ran rather well on just 60 MHz.
Sure, computers are constantly getting faster, but fortunately software
developers keep coming up with new ways to make us wait. :)

Michiel

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Dan Joseph]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Ashley Sheridan
wrote:

> I run it under Wine. Wine has come a long way since my first encounters
> with it a few years back and run a surprising amount of Windows-based
> software. I don't know how far its support for Flash has come, but I do
> remember running a version of Flash under Wine before. It was a bit
> buggy (some dialogues didn't always work) and crashed more than it might
> have normally on Windows, but it was OK at a push to get work done.
> Nowadays I don't really do anything with Flash, as it's a pita to get it
> optimised for search engines, accessibility just isn't up to scratch,
> and it takes a lot longer to build a whole dynamic site with it.
>
>
>
Yah, I'd never use it for a whole web site build either.  Heck, probably
wouldn't even use it for an image carosel.  We were building games with it,
which was really a no brainer to use flash.  I didn't want to get into
Java.

I'll have to try it under wine sometime.  I didn't even think about that.
But then again, my work machine is windows anyway.

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RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 11:12 -0700, Tommy Pham wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ashley Sheridan [mailto:a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk]
> > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 11:04 AM
> > To: Dan Joseph
> > Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
> > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)
> > 
> > On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 13:57 -0400, Dan Joseph wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Adam Richardson
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >  Contrary to my experiences a few years ago, there is no real loser
> > > > anymore, they all are very nice and have their advantages.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well, I still believe that Linux is the better suitor for a server, but
> some
> > > companies don't.  So you really just have to adjust to their
> requirements
> > > and needs.  You're right tho, they all have their advantages.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > I agree, and with the advances Linux has been making, you can even
> > update the kernel now without needing to restart the server, so you can
> > stay up-to-date with your security patches and never need any downtime.
> > That's potentially more important for some businesses than the cost
> > savings on the software.
> > 
> > As a desktop system, it's my personal choice. Both KDE 4 and Gnome 3
> > (released in Sept 2010) offer better flashiness than Windows 7 and
> > arguably better than the latest Mac OSX too, and the tools are as stable
> > as anything I've ever used before.
> > 
> > And the only game I ever play (World of Warcraft) plays better on Linux
> > (Fedora 11) than on Windows XP (tried it on Vista once, wasn't
> > impressed), so I'm not considering anything else right now!
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Ash
> > http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
> > 
> 
> Is there an actual WoW client for Linux or you run in Wine like environment?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tommy
> 
> 


I run it under Wine. Wine has come a long way since my first encounters
with it a few years back and run a surprising amount of Windows-based
software. I don't know how far its support for Flash has come, but I do
remember running a version of Flash under Wine before. It was a bit
buggy (some dialogues didn't always work) and crashed more than it might
have normally on Windows, but it was OK at a push to get work done.
Nowadays I don't really do anything with Flash, as it's a pita to get it
optimised for search engines, accessibility just isn't up to scratch,
and it takes a lot longer to build a whole dynamic site with it.



Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Dan Joseph]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Tommy Pham  wrote:

>  > As a desktop system, it's my personal choice. Both KDE 4 and Gnome 3
> > (released in Sept 2010) offer better flashiness than Windows 7 and
> > arguably better than the latest Mac OSX too, and the tools are as stable
> > as anything I've ever used before.
>
> Is there an actual WoW client for Linux or you run in Wine like
> environment?
>

I used Cedega for WoW years ago, but I think it runs under wine just fine.

I personally am using Windows for my desktop these days.  I have needs for
windows, such as Flash development.  Plus my PhpED license is for the
Windows client, so I feel kind of trapped there :)

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RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Tommy Pham]

> -Original Message-
> From: Ashley Sheridan [mailto:a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 11:04 AM
> To: Dan Joseph
> Cc: php-general@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)
> 
> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 13:57 -0400, Dan Joseph wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Adam Richardson
> wrote:
> >
> > >  Contrary to my experiences a few years ago, there is no real loser
> > > anymore, they all are very nice and have their advantages.
> > >
> >
> > Well, I still believe that Linux is the better suitor for a server, but
some
> > companies don't.  So you really just have to adjust to their
requirements
> > and needs.  You're right tho, they all have their advantages.
> >
> 
> 
> I agree, and with the advances Linux has been making, you can even
> update the kernel now without needing to restart the server, so you can
> stay up-to-date with your security patches and never need any downtime.
> That's potentially more important for some businesses than the cost
> savings on the software.
> 
> As a desktop system, it's my personal choice. Both KDE 4 and Gnome 3
> (released in Sept 2010) offer better flashiness than Windows 7 and
> arguably better than the latest Mac OSX too, and the tools are as stable
> as anything I've ever used before.
> 
> And the only game I ever play (World of Warcraft) plays better on Linux
> (Fedora 11) than on Windows XP (tried it on Vista once, wasn't
> impressed), so I'm not considering anything else right now!
> 
> Thanks,
> Ash
> http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
> 

Is there an actual WoW client for Linux or you run in Wine like environment?

Thanks,
Tommy


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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 13:57 -0400, Dan Joseph wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Adam Richardson wrote:
> 
> >  Contrary to my experiences a few years ago, there is no real loser
> > anymore,
> > they all are very nice and have their advantages.
> >
> 
> Well, I still believe that Linux is the better suitor for a server, but some
> companies don't.  So you really just have to adjust to their requirements
> and needs.  You're right tho, they all have their advantages.
> 


I agree, and with the advances Linux has been making, you can even
update the kernel now without needing to restart the server, so you can
stay up-to-date with your security patches and never need any downtime.
That's potentially more important for some businesses than the cost
savings on the software.

As a desktop system, it's my personal choice. Both KDE 4 and Gnome 3
(released in Sept 2010) offer better flashiness than Windows 7 and
arguably better than the latest Mac OSX too, and the tools are as stable
as anything I've ever used before.

And the only game I ever play (World of Warcraft) plays better on Linux
(Fedora 11) than on Windows XP (tried it on Vista once, wasn't
impressed), so I'm not considering anything else right now!

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Dan Joseph]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Adam Richardson wrote:

>  Contrary to my experiences a few years ago, there is no real loser
> anymore,
> they all are very nice and have their advantages.
>

Well, I still believe that Linux is the better suitor for a server, but some
companies don't.  So you really just have to adjust to their requirements
and needs.  You're right tho, they all have their advantages.

-- 
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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Adam Richardson]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Daniel Brown  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 13:20, Ashley Sheridan 
> wrote:
> >
> > I have heard good things about Windows 7, but I've not used it myself
> > yet (and don't really plan to)
>
> Wise.
>
>[Sent from a Win7 PC.]
>
> --
> 
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>
>
I actually rather like Windows 7.  I have one Windows laptop (Windows 7)
that I use for Windows development, one Mac laptop (Snow Leopard) that I use
for general web development, and a Linux box (Ubuntu) for server related
work.

Contrary to my experiences a few years ago, there is no real loser anymore,
they all are very nice and have their advantages.

Adam

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Daniel Brown]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 13:20, Ashley Sheridan  
wrote:
>
> I have heard good things about Windows 7, but I've not used it myself
> yet (and don't really plan to)

Wise.

[Sent from a Win7 PC.]

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 13:24 -0400, tedd wrote:

> At 5:06 PM +0100 4/23/10, Ashley Sheridan wrote:
> >On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 09:16 -0500, Kevin Kinsey wrote:
> >
> >>  I've still got a Win98 box in service somewhere
> >
> >
> >My commiserations to you, I used that for a couple of years.
> >
> >I suppose it could be worse though. It might have been WinME or Vista.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Ash
> 
> Or the next wonderful thing, whatever that may be from M$.
> 
> As I saw in a recent cartoon (with a W.C. Fields imitation) "Yes, my 
> little chickadee with a couple of shots of bourbon and if you squint 
> your eyes just right, System 7 looks a lot like Mac OS X".
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> tedd
> 
> -- 
> ---
> http://sperling.com  http://ancientstones.com  http://earthstones.com
> 


I have heard good things about Windows 7, but I've not used it myself
yet (and don't really plan to)

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[tedd]

At 5:06 PM +0100 4/23/10, Ashley Sheridan wrote:

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 09:16 -0500, Kevin Kinsey wrote:


 I've still got a Win98 box in service somewhere



My commiserations to you, I used that for a couple of years.

I suppose it could be worse though. It might have been WinME or Vista.

Thanks,
Ash


Or the next wonderful thing, whatever that may be from M$.

As I saw in a recent cartoon (with a W.C. Fields imitation) "Yes, my 
little chickadee with a couple of shots of bourbon and if you squint 
your eyes just right, System 7 looks a lot like Mac OS X".


Cheers,

tedd

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 09:16 -0500, Kevin Kinsey wrote:

> I've still got a Win98 box in service somewhere


My commiserations to you, I used that for a couple of years.

I suppose it could be worse though. It might have been WinME or Vista.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Kevin Kinsey]

Bobby Pejman wrote:
I must say, I never heard or even thought of the idea of calling it 

> LookOut. Hahaha.  It made me laugh for a good 10 minutes and
> if that term is open source, I will be using it ;)

I've still got a Win98 box in service somewhere around here; I use
it for audio recording.  Someone (possibly even me) renamed most
of the desktop icons ... OE's shortcut is "Outluck Depress".  :-)

Kevin D. Kinsey

FWIW:  Lists that set reply to sender:  All FreeBSD.org lists
Lists that set reply to "group":  All "Yahoo Groups" lists
My prefs:  I couldn't care less, really.


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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 17:35 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:

> Which is worse, one person having to
> check the answer by looking at the mailing list archive or the rest of
> the list not benefiting at all from the answer?


Well, as that one person was the one who needed the help enough to ask
the question in the first place...

I just don't agree that the reply-to field should be changed. Most email
clients are intelligent enough to recognise mailing lists when they see
them, and those that aren't, well, I don't think the world should have
to change to fit in with poor software. I know that often people don't
have a choice with what is installed on a computer, but surely it's
better trying to speak to whoever is in-charge of that to ask them to
change their procedures than get however many shared systems (i.e.
mailing lists) to change their methods?

I guess I'm too far gone down the open source route now to 'get' the
closed source problems that many people face in their offices. If I
don't like a piece of software, I can choose different software, contact
the developers, or even attempt to create a workaround myself.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[Peter Lind]

On 22 April 2010 17:05, Ashley Sheridan  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 17:06 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:
>
> On 22 April 2010 12:14, Ashley Sheridan  wrote:
> > I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
> > simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
> > the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
> > for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
> > detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
> > posting a question and receiving a good answer.
>
> That wouldn't change - they only get copied in when you choose
> 'reply-all' and that would work the same whether or not a 'reply-to'
> is used.
>
> Regards
> Peter
>
>
> It would change for the first reply. You say you just want to hit reply to 
> reply to the list. Now if anyone hits reply, because the reply-to' header has 
> been changed, the reply goes to the list and not the op. They're not 
> subscribed and so they miss out.

You seem to forget the amount of people stating "remove the other
addresses" from the "reply-all" response. Also, if you don't want to
subscribe to a mailing list, the onus is really on you to make sure
you get the response if any comes.

> The way things stand, hitting reply instead of reply to all sends the reply 
> back to the op only. It happens on this list often and doesn't cause many 
> issues as the op or replyer notices and sends/copies the list back in again.

It's rather annoying and easily avoided. The question is whether this
problem is bigger than people not subscribed to the list not getting a
response, because people use "reply" instead of "reply all".

> Changing the reply-to header would mean that if someone just hit reply, the 
> unsubscribed op wouldn't get the reply at all, and any further replies to 
> that thread would all be to the list only and the unsubscribed op would never 
> know.

Emailing a mailing list and expecting an automated response is ... I
don't want to be negative or arrogant, but I think there's a general
and rather problematic lack of experience there. It's a bit like
walking past a group of people, yelling a question at them, then
expecting one of them to run back to you with the answer after you've
passed. Would you normally expect that kind of behaviour?
 Apart from that, if in the current scenario you just hit 'reply' and
send the email off to the OP, the list doesn't get the benefit - and
the OP is not going to change that fact, as they're not subscribed to
the list and won't notice anyway. Which is worse, one person having to
check the answer by looking at the mailing list archive or the rest of
the list not benefiting at all from the answer?

Regards
Peter

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 17:06 +0200, Peter Lind wrote:

> On 22 April 2010 12:14, Ashley Sheridan  wrote:
> > I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
> > simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
> > the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
> > for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
> > detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
> > posting a question and receiving a good answer.
> 
> That wouldn't change - they only get copied in when you choose
> 'reply-all' and that would work the same whether or not a 'reply-to'
> is used.
> 
> Regards
> Peter
> 


It would change for the first reply. You say you just want to hit reply
to reply to the list. Now if anyone hits reply, because the reply-to'
header has been changed, the reply goes to the list and not the op.
They're not subscribed and so they miss out.

The way things stand, hitting reply instead of reply to all sends the
reply back to the op only. It happens on this list often and doesn't
cause many issues as the op or replyer notices and sends/copies the list
back in again.

Changing the reply-to header would mean that if someone just hit reply,
the unsubscribed op wouldn't get the reply at all, and any further
replies to that thread would all be to the list only and the
unsubscribed op would never know.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[Peter Lind]

On 22 April 2010 12:14, Ashley Sheridan  wrote:
> I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
> simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
> the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
> for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
> detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
> posting a question and receiving a good answer.

That wouldn't change - they only get copied in when you choose
'reply-all' and that would work the same whether or not a 'reply-to'
is used.

Regards
Peter

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Daniel Brown]

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:52, Mitul Modi  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am planning to install on embedded device. Please help me to reduce the
> binary footprint.

You sent two messages to the Install list and then hijacked this
thread.  Send a new message to php-general@lists.php.net and ask for
help.  If you don't get a response, you'll have to try somewhere else,
because it's possible that no one here knows the answer you're trying
to find.  In no case, however, should you ever hijack a thread like
this.

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Mitul Modi]

Hi,

I am planning to install on embedded device. Please help me to reduce the
binary footprint.

thanks,
Mitul modi

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[David McGlone]

On Wednesday 21 April 2010 12:16:28 O. Lavell wrote:
> Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > Hello David McGlone,
> >
> > Am 2010-04-21 08:27:18, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> >> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> >> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> >> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most
> >> people are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
> >
> > You are using Evolution and I am wondering, why you do not use the
> > "List-Reply Button"!
> 
> There is no such button in the Evolution version I am using, but Ctrl+L
> works just as well.
> 
> I prefer to read this list as an nntp newsgroup on news.php.net.
> 

I switched to Kontact where I am able to add a "reply to list" button on the 
tool bar.

I put it right beside the "reply" so when I go to hit the "reply" It will 
remind me of which one I actually need to hit.

I'm trying to make my computer work for me so I can focus on PHP, not the 
other way around. So after 16 years, I'm done tinkering with my OS's. It gets 
old and writing scripts for every little thing that I think will make my life 
easier is just a thing of the past for me.

Now-a-days the only tinkering I have to do is adding my samba shares to fstab 
when I do fresh installs, and installing apps I use that aren't included by 
default.

Simple, quick and to the point. Thats all I care about anymore.

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 15:55 -0500, Karl DeSaulniers wrote:

> On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Jay Blanchard wrote:
> 
> > Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
> > only responds to the list when you generate a reply.
> 
> LOL
> WT??
> 
> WHY would we want to do that? Much unnecessary work when an admin  
> could set a reply-to and all would be solved.
> With all due respect, if I was going to go through all that trouble  
> just so I could hit reply instead of reply-all or reply-list or reply- 
> group,
> I would write an email list program that discussed PHP (in PHP) and I  
> would set the reply-to to go to my list email.
> :)
> 
> Not to mention, the admin can set all of them to go to the list email.
> 
> reply-to
> reply-list
> reply-group
> 
> They just have to set the headers to point there. Much easier than  
> what was suggested.
> 
> That aside, I think David was just wondering why it was set up that  
> way in the first part.
> More a question for a admin, then the list, but it is on the list  
> none the less.
> I would have sent that one to the Admin directly.
> 
> It is curious though, why the admin of the PHP lists depend on  
> special case scenarios such as reply-list or reply-group.
> To me, thats kind of like saying you can only click buttons on our  
> website if you use Internet Explorer.
> Everyone else has to view the source and copy the urls to navigate.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Karl DeSaulniers
> Design Drumm
> http://designdrumm.com
> 
> 


I believe Dan Brown mentioned a very good reason why this is not as
simple an issue as just changing the reply-to. Not everyone who posts to
the list subscribes to the list, so being copied into the emails is good
for them. Suddenly changing the way things work could actually be
detrimental to the list. Imagine how many people joined up *after*
posting a question and receiving a good answer.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Ashley Sheridan]

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 19:55 +, Bobby Pejman wrote:

> I must say, I never heard or even thought of the idea of calling it LookOut. 
> Hahaha.  It made me laugh for a good 10 minutes and if that term is open 
> source, I will be using it ;)
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bob McConnell" 
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:01:55 
> To: Michelle Konzack; 
> 
> Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)
> From: Michelle Konzack
> 
> > Hello Peter Lind,
> > 
> > Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> >> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
> >> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
> >> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
> >> work?
> > 
> > Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used
> decent
> > tools to accomplish a task...  including the right  MUA  which
> simplify
> > the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.
> > 
> >> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
> >> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.
> > 
> > Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable  MUAs
> which
> > do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?
> > 
> > If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a
> non-suitable
> > MUA?
> 
> Probably because we don't have a choice. There is a legion of PHBs that
> make those decisions for us, obviously without having any information
> about what tools are really needed. I have to hand edit every response I
> send here and to several other lists in order to add the quote markers
> and move my content to the correct location. Lookout no longer offers
> that option. It also lacks the reply-to-list action as well as several
> others that would make life easier and simpler for everyone. I can't
> replace it because it is closely bound to our Exchange servers for
> scheduling and planning. So I won't have an option until after I retire,
> and then I won't need this list at all. Fortunately, that is only a
> couple of years away at most.
> 
> Bob McConnell
> 
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> 


Outlook is a pita sometimes. At my last job I just used Evolution and
connected over the OWA, as at the time I had to use my own laptop
because of a lack of computers available.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

[PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[O. Lavell]

Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello David McGlone,
> 
> Am 2010-04-21 08:27:18, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
>> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
>> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most
>> people are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.
> 
> You are using Evolution and I am wondering, why you do not use the
> "List-Reply Button"!

There is no such button in the Evolution version I am using, but Ctrl+L 
works just as well.

I prefer to read this list as an nntp newsgroup on news.php.net.


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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[Karl DeSaulniers]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Jay Blanchard wrote:


Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
only responds to the list when you generate a reply.


LOL
WT??

WHY would we want to do that? Much unnecessary work when an admin  
could set a reply-to and all would be solved.
With all due respect, if I was going to go through all that trouble  
just so I could hit reply instead of reply-all or reply-list or reply- 
group,
I would write an email list program that discussed PHP (in PHP) and I  
would set the reply-to to go to my list email.

:)

Not to mention, the admin can set all of them to go to the list email.

reply-to
reply-list
reply-group

They just have to set the headers to point there. Much easier than  
what was suggested.


That aside, I think David was just wondering why it was set up that  
way in the first part.
More a question for a admin, then the list, but it is on the list  
none the less.

I would have sent that one to the Admin directly.

It is curious though, why the admin of the PHP lists depend on  
special case scenarios such as reply-list or reply-group.
To me, thats kind of like saying you can only click buttons on our  
website if you use Internet Explorer.

Everyone else has to view the source and copy the urls to navigate.

Best,

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com


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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[David McGlone]

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 20:38 +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello David McGlone,
> 
> Am 2010-04-21 09:37:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> > Yes. but if it was so harmful, why does the 40, 50 or so lists that I've
> > been on, simply let you hit the reply and it goes back to the list?
> 
> Can you tell me which list these are?  I assume that on  most  of  those
> lists are handicaped Windows-Users which can not do better du  to  there
> cuted down ad restricting software which does not allow Users-Freedom...

To name a few:

Linux 4 Christians
Christian Source Free Open Source LUG (CS-FSLUG)
KDE *
Gnome *
Central Ohio Linux Users Group


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RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)[SOLVED TO A DEGREE]

[David McGlone]

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 13:51 -0500, Jay Blanchard wrote:
> [snip]tons of stuff[/snip]
> 
> C'mon folks! You're programmers! Don't like the way your mail client
> handles the list? Then write an interface (using PHP of course) that
> only responds to the list when you generate a reply. 

I wish I was that good! :-)
> 
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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Bobby Pejman]

I must say, I never heard or even thought of the idea of calling it LookOut. 
Hahaha.  It made me laugh for a good 10 minutes and if that term is open 
source, I will be using it ;)

-Original Message-
From: "Bob McConnell" 
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:01:55 
To: Michelle Konzack; 

Subject: RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)
From: Michelle Konzack

> Hello Peter Lind,
> 
> Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
>> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
>> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
>> work?
> 
> Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used
decent
> tools to accomplish a task...  including the right  MUA  which
simplify
> the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.
> 
>> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
>> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.
> 
> Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable  MUAs
which
> do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?
> 
> If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a
non-suitable
> MUA?

Probably because we don't have a choice. There is a legion of PHBs that
make those decisions for us, obviously without having any information
about what tools are really needed. I have to hand edit every response I
send here and to several other lists in order to add the quote markers
and move my content to the correct location. Lookout no longer offers
that option. It also lacks the reply-to-list action as well as several
others that would make life easier and simpler for everyone. I can't
replace it because it is closely bound to our Exchange servers for
scheduling and planning. So I won't have an option until after I retire,
and then I won't need this list at all. Fortunately, that is only a
couple of years away at most.

Bob McConnell

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RE: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Bob McConnell]

From: Michelle Konzack

> Hello Peter Lind,
> 
> Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
>> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
>> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
>> work?
> 
> Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used
decent
> tools to accomplish a task...  including the right  MUA  which
simplify
> the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.
> 
>> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
>> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.
> 
> Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable  MUAs
which
> do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?
> 
> If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a
non-suitable
> MUA?

Probably because we don't have a choice. There is a legion of PHBs that
make those decisions for us, obviously without having any information
about what tools are really needed. I have to hand edit every response I
send here and to several other lists in order to add the quote markers
and move my content to the correct location. Lookout no longer offers
that option. It also lacks the reply-to-list action as well as several
others that would make life easier and simpler for everyone. I can't
replace it because it is closely bound to our Exchange servers for
scheduling and planning. So I won't have an option until after I retire,
and then I won't need this list at all. Fortunately, that is only a
couple of years away at most.

Bob McConnell

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Re: [PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Peter Lind]

On 21 April 2010 20:09, Michelle Konzack  wrote:
> Hello Peter Lind,

Hi Michelle

> Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
>> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
>> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
>> work?
>
> Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used  decent
> tools to accomplish a task...  including the right  MUA  which  simplify
> the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.

Making it the problem of the MUA is a hack, not a solution. If you
really want to go down the "I have experience" route I'd expect you to
choose the "fix the problem at the root"-solution not the "lets hack
it by leaving the problem as is and requiring everyone to choose a
proper tool"-hack.

>> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
>> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.
>
> Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable  MUAs  which
> do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?
>
> If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a  non-suitable
> MUA?

Please don't make assumptions about me and my tools - you have no
basis for them. Apart from that, I see no reason to call MUAs
'suitable' based on whether or not they fix a problem that should be
fixed elsewhere.
 If I'm not mistaken, we're faced with a quite simple cost/benefit
scenario: how many people want to reply just to the list when
responding and how many people want to reply just to the OP when
responding. If the first number is higher than the second, then we're
imposing extra work on people (either by asking them to manually fix
email addresses or by bullying them into changing email clients) if we
stick to the solution that fit the second group.

But it's still a moot point, as the admins of the list won't be
changing settings.

Regards
Peter

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[PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello David McGlone,

Am 2010-04-21 09:37:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> Yes. but if it was so harmful, why does the 40, 50 or so lists that I've
> been on, simply let you hit the reply and it goes back to the list?

Can you tell me which list these are?  I assume that on  most  of  those
lists are handicaped Windows-Users which can not do better du  to  there
cuted down ad restricting software which does not allow Users-Freedom...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

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[PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Hans Åhlin,

Am 2010-04-21 16:12:06, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> Strange I only got one, but it ma be a mail server filter

For me it is only worse, because if someone respond to a message with ME
in the Cc:, the Cc'ed message arrive first and will be trashed because I
have setup a filter which does

# Prevent duplicated messages
:0Whc
|formail -D 8000 .msg_id_cache
:0a
/dev/null

# Kill unwanted CC messages on my cell-phone
:0
* to_linux4miche...@tamay-dogan.net
* ^List-Id:.*php-.*\.lists\.php\.net
/dev/null

:0
* ^List-Post:.*mailto:php-[-a-zA-Z0-9]+@
* ^List-Post:.*mailto:php-\/[-a-zA-Z0-9]+
.ML_php.${MATCH}/



Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

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[PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Michiel Sikma,

Am 2010-04-21 16:35:50, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I'd like to refrain from actually passing judgement on this issue--since I
> use reply-all by default I could live with both of these settings--but I'm
> still curious as to why the list is set up the way it is.
> 
> What is the advantage of sending to the OP by default rather than the list?

Because DECENT MUA's have three options:

R)  Reply to OP
G)  Reply to Group
L)  Reply to List

If you set Reply-To: to the list, you can not more send PM to the Poster
and you have to edit the message.  This is WHY "Reply-To-List" exist.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

-- 
# Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ##
   Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsyst...@tdnet France   itsyst...@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack  Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz   Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil   Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
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[PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Peter Lind,

Am 2010-04-21 15:47:54, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> And waste time every single time you post to the list ... why do
> people become programmers/developers again? To end creating technical
> solutions they can then avoid using by doing extra, pointless manual
> work?

Hmmm, being a Programmer/Developer since 1982 and have ever used  decent
tools to accomplish a task...  including the right  MUA  which  simplify
the Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks.

> Anyway, if there's no chance of changing the minds of the people
> administering the list, the discussion might as well end now.

Why should Programmers/Developers bother with non-reliable  MUAs  which
do not support Programmers/Developers daily mailing tasks?

If YOU are a Programmer/Developer why do you bother with a  non-suitable
MUA?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

-- 
# Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ##
   Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsyst...@tdnet France   itsyst...@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack  Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz   Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil   Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix

  
 

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[PHP] Re: replying to list (I give up)

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello David McGlone,

Am 2010-04-21 08:27:18, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I give up. trying to reply to messages on this list is tedious. I can't
> pinpoint whether it's because the list is set up to make replies go to
> the OP or the OP has his reply-to in his mail client set, or most people
> are hitting the reply-to button instead of simply reply.

You are using Evolution and I am wondering,
why you do not use the "List-Reply Button"!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator

-- 
# Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ##
   Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux

itsyst...@tdnet France   itsyst...@tdnet UG (haftungsbeschränkt)
Gesch. Michelle Konzack  Gesch. Michelle Konzack

Apt. 917 (homeoffice)
50, rue de Soultz   Kinzigstraße 17
67100 Strasbourg/France 77694 Kehl/Germany
Tel: +33-6-61925193 mobil   Tel: +49-177-9351947 mobil
Tel: +33-9-52705884 fix

  
 

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