Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository
Miles Fascinating link and series of articles. Well worth reading. One of my VFP buddies copies his entire set of classes into every new project he starts; I've also seen scenarios where to use one or two useful functions you had to import a whole class structure. Yes, I think he raises some very fair issues. My own experience goes like this - 1) Had a business idea and couldn't afford the software, so decided to learn how to build it myself. 2) Read Code Complete and did the first draft 3) Found I was getting drowned in complexity: assumed OOP would be the answer and that I might have to abandon PHP. 4) Read the OOP classics. I have a pretty strong academic background but I find a lot of the OOP stuff extremely difficult to understand. I have a rule of thumb that if an author can't explain something clearly, it is often because they are not clear about it themselves. Began to wonder if the OOP emperor had no clothes. 5) Began to suspect that it is the architectural ideas of OOP that are interesting, rather than objects themselves. 6) Played around with PHP and discovered I could do most of the same things more simply and more flexibly, organising the app around tasks rather than objects. 7) Found some writers such as Michael Jackson (his recent book on analysis is a classic) who gave a theoretical justification for what I was intuitively doing in practice. This is where I think a PHP Pattern Repository would come in - to allow the community to begin to flesh out and document these non-OOP approaches. But as there has been a thunderous silence, I have to assume that no one else agrees... Geoff Caplan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository
Geoff, I'm getting a 404 not found on that URL. Please check it. Miles At 05:07 PM 9/6/01 +0100, Geoff Caplan wrote: Michael Kimsal wrote Tell me more about your thoughts on this please. One of the strengths of PHP is the gentle learning curve. This means that a lot of people are using it as their first programming language, and a lot of the traffic on the lists, and the articles on the PHP sites, are at a pretty basic level. Nothing wrong with this, but it may give some the impression that PHP is not a serious tool. If you lurk on Java/Ruby/Python/Rebol lists, as I sometimes do, there is a lot of higher level discussion about how to get the best out of the language, in architectural and design terms. I thought that a good way to focus this kind of discussion would be debating and documenting design and architecture patterns as applied to PHP. I would have thought that this would be stimulating for the gurus, and beginners like myself would learn a lot from watching the process. And because the PHP solution will often be much simpler than the Java/C++ style solutions, it would be a good way to demonstrate the power of the language to anyone considering adopting it for serious work. Here is a paper documenting some procedural/relational patterns that might give a sense of what I am suggesting: http://www/geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm Hope this is useful Geoff Caplan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository
Original message From: Miles Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:44:16PM -0300 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository Geoff, I'm getting a 404 not found on that URL. Please check it. Miles /Original message Reply You should replace the slash by a dot: http://www/geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm ^ | v http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm /Reply -- * RzE: -- -- Renze Munnik -- DataLink BV -- -- E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- W: +31 23 5326162 -- F: +31 23 5322144 -- M: +31 6 21811143 -- -- Stationsplein 82 -- 2011 LM HAARLEM -- Netherlands -- -- http://www.datalink.nl -- -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository
Hi I'm getting a 404 not found on that URL. Please check it. Oops - silly typo - and I double checked it too! Here is the address: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm Actually, this is a pretty interesting site. The root is at: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/index.html It is a pretty thought provoking critique of OOP as a tool for small to medium business projects - helped give me the confidence to stick with a procedural approach. His style is pretty combative, which will put some backs up, but it makes for entertaining reading. The site is a bit shambolic, but if you dig around you will find about 30 papers and lots of good links too. I particularly like his concept of Table Oriented Programming: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/top.htm He shows how to use various kinds of external configuration approaches to increase flexibility and reduce maintenance. Good stuff, IMHO Geoff Caplan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository
Michael Kimsal wrote Tell me more about your thoughts on this please. One of the strengths of PHP is the gentle learning curve. This means that a lot of people are using it as their first programming language, and a lot of the traffic on the lists, and the articles on the PHP sites, are at a pretty basic level. Nothing wrong with this, but it may give some the impression that PHP is not a serious tool. If you lurk on Java/Ruby/Python/Rebol lists, as I sometimes do, there is a lot of higher level discussion about how to get the best out of the language, in architectural and design terms. I thought that a good way to focus this kind of discussion would be debating and documenting design and architecture patterns as applied to PHP. I would have thought that this would be stimulating for the gurus, and beginners like myself would learn a lot from watching the process. And because the PHP solution will often be much simpler than the Java/C++ style solutions, it would be a good way to demonstrate the power of the language to anyone considering adopting it for serious work. Here is a paper documenting some procedural/relational patterns that might give a sense of what I am suggesting: http://www/geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6888/prpats.htm Hope this is useful Geoff Caplan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] The future of PHP - PHP Pattern Repository
Hi Thomas Deliduka wrote: Actually this originally started ... with my question as to what to tell my JSP-loving buddy that PHP isn't an antiquated and dying language/processing system. I have a proposal for the PHP gurus which should help establish PHP's credentials as a serious tool with cutting-edge capabilities. I think this may be important, so please bear with me while I outline the case... Clearly, most of the current buzz is around OOP Java. And even with the stronger object model proposed for Zend 2, PHP will always remain at heart a procedural language. So it seems important for the community to demonstrate how serious projects can be accomplished with a procedural/relational approach, as this is the strength of PHP. PHP offers some very powerful features not available in traditional procedural languages - such as: - includes and variable includes - variable variables - variable functions and variable length argument lists - smart loose typing - the wonderful, all singing, all dancing PHP array The problem is, how to make best use of this power? Because these are innovative features, there is little guidance out there in the traditional literature. As most will be aware, the Big Thing in OOP right now is Patterns. In essence, patterns are outlines of proven solutions to common issues. There are patterns for program architecture, program design and for the development process itself. ( By the way, an interesting source of patterns for web architecture is http://www.martinfowler.com/isa/ , if you don't know it). Clearly, a lot of people are finding patterns very helpful, judging by the explosion of interest in the field. Even in my own experience as a newbie self-taught hacker, I have found ways of using PHPs features to accomplish in a few lines of code things that would involve a mountain of abstraction using the Gang of Four OOP patterns. It is obvious that you can cream things with PHP that are difficult in Java/C++. Those of you with more education and experience than me must have discovered a wide range of these techniques. What I am proposing is that the PHP style gurus get together to produce an evolving repository of patterns demonstrating the power of PHP. A good start would be to demonstrate how some of the Gang of Four patterns could be accomplished more simply in PHP. This could be hosted on PHP.org or Zend.com. If the repository became a lively focus of community activity, it could go a long way to establish the serious credentials of the language. The PHP documentation is terrific for an open source project, but there is a huge gap between understanding the syntax of the language, and understanding how to unleash its full power. A repository of quality PHP Patterns would help bridge this gap. What do people think? Geoff Caplan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
