Re: [PHP] global address collection
Actually, phone numbers should not be prefixed with 00. The prefix for international dialing depends on the local phone regulations and it is different in different countries (for example, 011 in the USA). The recommendation from the telephone union (http://www.itu.int/) is to use a plus sign to indicate that the phone number starts with the country prefix. Thus, it would be: +44 1623 123456 or +1 408 555 1212. Americans also get often confused because the first 1 is both the country code for the US, Canada and a good chunk of the Caribbean and it is, at the same time, the prefix they use to dial national long distance. That's why the + is important. In most of the world, the leading zeros are like ../. You can thing of local phone numbers as your current directory. If you want to dial another area code, you first dial a zero, which is like using ../ in a file system, and then the area code, like the folder for that local number folder. If you want to dial international, you dial 00, which is like doing ../../, which gets you to the world root (eventually there might be three zeros to dial interplanetary!) and then dial the 'folder name' of the other country. Which reminds me of an observation by Arthur C Clarke that once humankind becomes an intergalactic civilization each group will lose communication with the rest, can you just imagine what phone numbers might be! (Brits always had a peculiar sense of humor) There is no mandatory format to separate international dialing prefix, country code, area code and actual number, it is better to have them separated at least with a blank space, but there is no standard regarding that and none should automatically impossed, the spacing provided by the user should be respected. Once again Americans are use to see their numbers as 1-408-555-1212 because all their area codes are 3 digits long and all the local numbers contain 7 digits grouped as 3 and 4, but most countries use a variable number of digits for area codes so only the person who entered the number can know how to split it. Do not delete the whitespace and then reformat the numbers assuming a fixed format because none actually exists. Tables of international dialing codes are available just googling around (for example, http://www.kropla.com/dialcode.htm), it is not a bad idea to check country against the first part of the phone number but then, a warning is all you could possibly issue since a person might have a postal address in, say, Monaco (+377) and a French mobile (+33). I wouldn't imagine that the Vatican has a separate mobile network from that of Rome so though they have an international prefix different from that of Italy which they might use for their land lines, their mobiles are probably Italian. Also, it should be Province/County/State, and it should be optional since some cities are autonomous (usuall federal capital cities), just don't make it mandatory. And don't force anything on postal codes. Some countries have letters in them and the number of characters varies. I just hate it when they ask to enter the full 9 digit zip code. Satyam - Original Message - From: Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: php-general@lists.php.net Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [PHP] global address collection In other words, in the USA we ask for name, address, city, state, zip, and phone number. What would be a global equivalent that could cover all (or most) address and phone numbers? Full name (optionally forename/surname) Address 1 Address 2 (optional) Address 3 (optional) Town/City County/State Postal/Zip code Country Full international phone number (eg. 0044 1623 123456) -- Richard Heyes http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk Knowledge Base and HelpDesk software that can cut the cost of online support ** NOW OFFERING FREE ACCOUNTS TO CHARITIES AND NON-PROFITS ** -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1212 - Release Date: 06/01/2008 22:55 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
On Jan 8, 2008 10:08 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished a credit card portion for a site where the programmer before me required the customers to enter their credit card number without spaces -- why? It's a simple matter to remove spaces for processing -- why throw that responsibility on the user? I agree that removing spaces really isn't a huge deal, but aside from that I don't think there should be any other modification. I've seen code that will regex out anything but numbers. I think this is bad practice because we as programmers should validate, not modify data. Anything above and beyond that is sticking your neck out too far and will lead to problems sooner or later. What if the user mistyped what they intended? If the script just validates it will see the user accidently typed in a letter in the field and re-display it asking for numbers only. If it strips out the letters, then you've just sent the potentially invalid number to the gateway which in the end will be a charge against the client for a failed attempt. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
At 3:10 PM +0100 1/8/08, Satyam wrote: Also, it should be Province/County/State, and it should be optional since some cities are autonomous (usuall federal capital cities), just don't make it mandatory. And don't force anything on postal codes. Some countries have letters in them and the number of characters varies. I just hate it when they ask to enter the full 9 digit zip code. Satyam Satyan: Thanks very much for your most detailed global telephone number information -- very informative. I also hate it when forms force you to do something that's not necessary. For example: http://support.theflip.com/generalcustomerservice requires you to enter your phone number in the format of xxx-xxx-, but list their phone number as (888) 222-6689. Using that format, they couldn't send themselves a message. Plus they advertise 4 hour response yet have failed to answer any of my emails sent over the last two weeks. I had one form recently that said Click the box if the billing address and shipping address are the same and then if you clicked it, then the form made you fill out both sections -- I went elsewhere for my purchase. I just finished a credit card portion for a site where the programmer before me required the customers to enter their credit card number without spaces -- why? It's a simple matter to remove spaces for processing -- why throw that responsibility on the user? The best design for a form comes from using it. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
The best design for a form comes from using it. To a certain extent, but I think the best design for a form stems from watching someone else use it. -- Richard Heyes http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk Knowledge Base and HelpDesk software that can cut the cost of online support ** NOW OFFERING FREE ACCOUNTS TO CHARITIES AND NON-PROFITS ** -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
Satyam wrote: Telephone stuff is comprehensive Also, it should be Province/County/State, and it should be optional since some cities are autonomous (usuall federal capital cities), just don't make it mandatory. And don't force anything on postal codes. Some countries have letters in them and the number of characters varies. I just hate it when they ask to enter the full 9 digit zip code. Another area of difficulty is the SIZE of the 'Address' fields. While in the UK House number + Postcode should be all that you need, if you have named flats in a named building in a development in an area of say London, then the address 1/2/3 fields can be quite full. Add commercial premises on an industrial state and you get similar problems. Some parts will need to be combined on one line, and I'm now finding even 80 character entries can be a problem :( Oh for XML and the ability to add 'extra' 'Address' lines :) Full name (optionally forename/surname) Address 1 Address 2 (optional) Address 3 (optional) Town/City County/State Postal/Zip code Country Full international phone number (eg. 0044 1623 123456) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk MEDW - http://home.lsces.co.uk/ModelEngineersDigitalWorkshop/ Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
At 10:18 AM -0500 1/8/08, Eric Butera wrote: On Jan 8, 2008 10:08 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished a credit card portion for a site where the programmer before me required the customers to enter their credit card number without spaces -- why? It's a simple matter to remove spaces for processing -- why throw that responsibility on the user? I agree that removing spaces really isn't a huge deal, but aside from that I don't think there should be any other modification. I've seen code that will regex out anything but numbers. I think this is bad practice because we as programmers should validate, not modify data. Anything above and beyond that is sticking your neck out too far and will lead to problems sooner or later. What if the user mistyped what they intended? If the script just validates it will see the user accidently typed in a letter in the field and re-display it asking for numbers only. If it strips out the letters, then you've just sent the potentially invalid number to the gateway which in the end will be a charge against the client for a failed attempt. Understood, and agreed. Generally, don't modify the data provided, but rather validate the form of the data. However, white space is a different critter in some data and is basically used to help customers accurately enter/see their credit card numbers. It's common for us to more easily identify strings in 3 and 4 combinations than it is to try to see the entire string at one time. Research for this has been around for a long time, please review: http://symboldomains.com/sperling.html No relation to me. If you look at what's required by the credit card company, then you can make some valid assumptions. For example, credit card numbers for the popular credit card companies do not use anything but numbers in the card -- and the number of numbers is constant. As such, you can check for a valid credit card number prior to sending it out. There's lots of stuff you can do, but you also dig yourself a deeper hole if you're wrong. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
On Jan 8, 2008 10:42 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:18 AM -0500 1/8/08, Eric Butera wrote: On Jan 8, 2008 10:08 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished a credit card portion for a site where the programmer before me required the customers to enter their credit card number without spaces -- why? It's a simple matter to remove spaces for processing -- why throw that responsibility on the user? I agree that removing spaces really isn't a huge deal, but aside from that I don't think there should be any other modification. I've seen code that will regex out anything but numbers. I think this is bad practice because we as programmers should validate, not modify data. Anything above and beyond that is sticking your neck out too far and will lead to problems sooner or later. What if the user mistyped what they intended? If the script just validates it will see the user accidently typed in a letter in the field and re-display it asking for numbers only. If it strips out the letters, then you've just sent the potentially invalid number to the gateway which in the end will be a charge against the client for a failed attempt. Understood, and agreed. Generally, don't modify the data provided, but rather validate the form of the data. However, white space is a different critter in some data and is basically used to help customers accurately enter/see their credit card numbers. It's common for us to more easily identify strings in 3 and 4 combinations than it is to try to see the entire string at one time. Research for this has been around for a long time, please review: i agree, but rather than using spaces, or allowing them in the input string, i prefer to have several focused form fields that comprise a larger element. for example, a credit card number is 4 units of 4 digits. my preference for credit card number entry is to have 4 text inputs which take 4 characters each. this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. its safe to call trim() on each sequence of characters and concatenate them. if any character is not a digit then immediately the data is known to be invalid (obviously additional checks are important as well [and no more difficult to perform than if a single form element was used to collect the data]). ive also seen sites that will use javascript to monitor the character count in each of these smaller form elements and move the cursor to the subsequent form element once the current one is full. i have mixed feelings, that generally boil down to particular implementations on this design decision; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. but thats up to the designer on a case by case basis. in general i urge clients to have several small form fields when reasonable. it reduces confusion for the user, and headaches for the (server side;)) developer. -nathan
Re: [PHP] global address collection
At 12:56 PM -0500 1/8/08, Nathan Nobbe wrote: i agree, but rather than using spaces, or allowing them in the input string, i prefer to have several focused form fields that comprise a larger element. for example, a credit card number is 4 units of 4 digits. my preference for credit card number entry is to have 4 text inputs which take 4 characters each. this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. its safe to call trim() on each sequence of characters and concatenate them. if any character is not a digit then immediately the data is known to be invalid (obviously additional checks are important as well [and no more difficult to perform than if a single form element was used to collect the data]). ive also seen sites that will use javascript to monitor the character count in each of these smaller form elements and move the cursor to the subsequent form element once the current one is full. i have mixed feelings, that generally boil down to particular implementations on this design decision; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. but thats up to the designer on a case by case basis. in general i urge clients to have several small form fields when reasonable. it reduces confusion for the user, and headaches for the (server side;)) developer. -nathan Ahh yes, an excellent idea. Thanks, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Jan 8, 2008 2:04 PM, Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. It's not so convenient when you consider Google (and presumably others) toolbars auto fill. fortunately i dont have those installed ;) Why is that fortunate? I find the Google toolbar very useful. Besides, your users might be using it. Anything you can do to increase the usability of your site should be done IMO. -- Richard Heyes http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk Knowledge Base and HelpDesk software that can cut the cost of online support ** NOW OFFERING FREE ACCOUNTS TO CHARITIES AND NON-PROFITS ** -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
Richard Heyes wrote: Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Jan 8, 2008 2:04 PM, Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. It's not so convenient when you consider Google (and presumably others) toolbars auto fill. fortunately i dont have those installed ;) Why is that fortunate? I find the Google toolbar very useful. Besides, your users might be using it. Anything you can do to increase the usability of your site should be done IMO. Trying to think of (and maybe even accommodate) what non-standard and third-party tools your potential user may or may not have installed, goes a bit too far, IMO. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. It's not so convenient when you consider Google (and presumably others) toolbars auto fill. -- Richard Heyes http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk Knowledge Base and HelpDesk software that can cut the cost of online support ** NOW OFFERING FREE ACCOUNTS TO CHARITIES AND NON-PROFITS ** -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
On Jan 8, 2008 2:04 PM, Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. It's not so convenient when you consider Google (and presumably others) toolbars auto fill. fortunately i dont have those installed ;) -nathan
Re: [PHP] global address collection
At 8:23 PM +0100 1/8/08, Per Jessen wrote: Richard Heyes wrote: Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Jan 8, 2008 2:04 PM, Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. It's not so convenient when you consider Google (and presumably others) toolbars auto fill. fortunately i dont have those installed ;) Why is that fortunate? I find the Google toolbar very useful. Besides, your users might be using it. Anything you can do to increase the usability of your site should be done IMO. Trying to think of (and maybe even accommodate) what non-standard and third-party tools your potential user may or may not have installed, goes a bit too far, IMO. In addition, I don't think that having an auto-fill for a credit card number is ideal. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
tedd wrote: At 8:23 PM +0100 1/8/08, Per Jessen wrote: Richard Heyes wrote: Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Jan 8, 2008 2:04 PM, Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. It's not so convenient when you consider Google (and presumably others) toolbars auto fill. fortunately i dont have those installed ;) Why is that fortunate? I find the Google toolbar very useful. Besides, your users might be using it. Anything you can do to increase the usability of your site should be done IMO. Trying to think of (and maybe even accommodate) what non-standard and third-party tools your potential user may or may not have installed, goes a bit too far, IMO. Without usage stats, and given that it's third party and non-standard, I would guess that it's mighty popular (with it bearing the Google brand), and therefore worth accommodating. In addition, I don't think that having an auto-fill for a credit card number is ideal. So? People use it. -- Richard Heyes http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk Knowledge Base and HelpDesk software that can cut the cost of online support ** NOW OFFERING FREE ACCOUNTS TO CHARITIES AND NON-PROFITS ** -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
On Jan 8, 2008 2:23 PM, Per Jessen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Heyes wrote: Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Jan 8, 2008 2:04 PM, Richard Heyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this is not only convenient from a user perspective in the user interface, but also on the server side. It's not so convenient when you consider Google (and presumably others) toolbars auto fill. fortunately i dont have those installed ;) Why is that fortunate? I find the Google toolbar very useful. Besides, your users might be using it. Anything you can do to increase the usability of your site should be done IMO. Trying to think of (and maybe even accommodate) what non-standard and third-party tools your potential user may or may not have installed, goes a bit too far, IMO. i agree w/ Per in this case, however, i will say that Richard did make me curious enough to do a quick google on the topic. it seems mostly, form designers have problems w/ the yellow background colors google toolbars' autofill feature coats form fields w/. heres a couple of links in case anybodys interested: http://code.jenseng.com/google/ http://www.technologyevangelist.com/2006/03/designing_google_too.html http://www.mediacollege.com/internet/utilities/google/toolbar-autofill.html i would say, w/ the credit card field in particular, anybody who doesnt double check that info before hitting submit deserves any backlash from a mistake. a compromise might be sufficient if a site has a track record of issues w/ users and an autofill feature. just posting some paragraph about proper usage or making something clever to detect the possible existence of a toolbar. there may be better ways, but for the google toolbar you could set the background color of your forms to a known value, say #00, then when the page loads, with javascript you could check the background color of the form fields again. if the color was different, you might then display a general warning / best practice notification to the user (and it would have the added bonus of making your users think youre smart, like the firebug warning that pops up in gmail now). at any rate im sure there are scads of these toolbars out there, and even though there are a couple of blog articles and maybe even some simple api spec at googles site, i would consider it relatively futile to accommodate them into my overall design. rather, i would handle them on a case-by-case basis and only then when problems crop up on a given site. -nathan
[PHP] global address collection
Hi: What would be a good form (i.e., fields) for collecting global addresses and phone numbers? In other words, in the USA we ask for name, address, city, state, zip, and phone number. What would be a global equivalent that could cover all (or most) address and phone numbers? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] global address collection
On Jan 7, 2008 1:13 PM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi: What would be a good form (i.e., fields) for collecting global addresses and phone numbers? In other words, in the USA we ask for name, address, city, state, zip, and phone number. What would be a global equivalent that could cover all (or most) address and phone numbers? i once had to assemble a mapping between several proprietary systems address conventions and a domestic standard. i far as i recall, i found the 'official' info on the usps site. i spent a couple of minutes looking there just now; although i found nothing on international standards or recommendations, but further searching may yield something useful. -nathan
Re: [PHP] global address collection
In other words, in the USA we ask for name, address, city, state, zip, and phone number. What would be a global equivalent that could cover all (or most) address and phone numbers? Full name (optionally forename/surname) Address 1 Address 2 (optional) Address 3 (optional) Town/City County/State Postal/Zip code Country Full international phone number (eg. 0044 1623 123456) -- Richard Heyes http://www.websupportsolutions.co.uk Knowledge Base and HelpDesk software that can cut the cost of online support ** NOW OFFERING FREE ACCOUNTS TO CHARITIES AND NON-PROFITS ** -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
