Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
At 3:44 PM -0500 2/9/09, Daniel Brown wrote: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 15:41, Stuart wrote: Indeed, but I find coding without QA requirements is a great way to relax. It's what I do to take a break from coding for The Job[tm]. I suppose that makes us seem a little ill, eh? -- Daniel: When you have something, let me know. The link you posted was very interesting. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Daniel Brown wrote: > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 15:21, Stuart wrote: >> >> I would advise you against wasting your time because there is no >> reliable way to tell what systems a server is actually using to serve >> pages. Nearly all sites I work on these days use techniques to remove >> extensions from URLs, and a fair few hide all details of the server >> software for a variety of reasons. Since you can't say with any >> certainty what your margin of error is, the numbers will be >> meaningless as a measure of language usage. > >Right, but adjusting the math as appropriate should be fine. If a > site doesn't report either PHP or ASP, for example, don't include it > in the count. If we have 100 sites that we spider and 23 report > having PHP capabilities, 16 report being able to support ASP, fifty > (half) having no response, we know that 46% of the total can serve PHP > code while 32% can serve ASP, because we will only record the total > based upon responses. I'm sure there are flaws in this logic > which is why I'm thinking aloud here. ;-P For regular ASP, the server won't report anything. Generally, if the server identifies itself as IIS it will support regular old ASP. These sites will generally use VBScript, but they could use JScript. If the developer is really hard core, they could use any Active Scripting language. What's more, I wonder how many might still be using something like Chili!Soft ASP on Linux/Apache. (I'd expect it might be small enough to be negligible.) Our servers (and many others I know of) are IIS, so they will support ASP without announcing this to the world. They will also report yes to both ASP.NET and PHP unless we have notification turned off for some reason because both are available even though everything we are doing right now is in PHP. Even in my last job (same employer, different department) we had ASP, ASP.NET, PHP and ColdFusion available. Everything we wrote was ASP, but from time to time we'd get an app written in one of the other languages that someone wanted to host for their department and often we'd host it. For that matter, what about someone using Phalanger, Monologo, or the like to write PHP syntax inside .NET? :-) Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 15:41, Stuart wrote: > > Indeed, but I find coding without QA requirements is a great way to relax. It's what I do to take a break from coding for The Job[tm]. I suppose that makes us seem a little ill, eh? -- daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
2009/2/9 Daniel Brown : > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 15:21, Stuart wrote: >> >> I would advise you against wasting your time because there is no >> reliable way to tell what systems a server is actually using to serve >> pages. Nearly all sites I work on these days use techniques to remove >> extensions from URLs, and a fair few hide all details of the server >> software for a variety of reasons. Since you can't say with any >> certainty what your margin of error is, the numbers will be >> meaningless as a measure of language usage. > >Right, but adjusting the math as appropriate should be fine. If a > site doesn't report either PHP or ASP, for example, don't include it > in the count. If we have 100 sites that we spider and 23 report > having PHP capabilities, 16 report being able to support ASP, fifty > (half) having no response, we know that 46% of the total can serve PHP > code while 32% can serve ASP, because we will only record the total > based upon responses. I'm sure there are flaws in this logic > which is why I'm thinking aloud here. ;-P You used the right word there... "can" as in not necessarily is! Your results would indicate capability rather than actual usage and even then you have no way to determine your margin of error. Having said all that I would guess that any numbers that look half-way decent would probably convince the people Tedd is looking to sway. But they still won't be anyway near accurate. >> Having said that it's been a while since I wrote a spider, shame I >> don't have time to have a go at the moment. Have fun ;-) > >It's just going to be proof-of-concept code certainly nothing > worth pushing Nielsen out the door. Indeed, but I find coding without QA requirements is a great way to relax. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 15:21, Stuart wrote: > > I would advise you against wasting your time because there is no > reliable way to tell what systems a server is actually using to serve > pages. Nearly all sites I work on these days use techniques to remove > extensions from URLs, and a fair few hide all details of the server > software for a variety of reasons. Since you can't say with any > certainty what your margin of error is, the numbers will be > meaningless as a measure of language usage. Right, but adjusting the math as appropriate should be fine. If a site doesn't report either PHP or ASP, for example, don't include it in the count. If we have 100 sites that we spider and 23 report having PHP capabilities, 16 report being able to support ASP, fifty (half) having no response, we know that 46% of the total can serve PHP code while 32% can serve ASP, because we will only record the total based upon responses. I'm sure there are flaws in this logic which is why I'm thinking aloud here. ;-P > Having said that it's been a while since I wrote a spider, shame I > don't have time to have a go at the moment. Have fun ;-) It's just going to be proof-of-concept code certainly nothing worth pushing Nielsen out the door. -- daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
2009/2/9 Daniel Brown : > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 14:58, Shawn McKenzie wrote: >>> >> And HTM shows 701M, so it is now beating out ASP :-) > >Another bone of contention is the masking --- I mentioned it > briefly in my original remarks in this thread, but on further > investigation, it may actually have a substantial impact on numbers. > More sites are using mod_rewrite and similar tactics to use > extensionless URL's and SEFU's (Search Engine-Friendly URL's) than > ASP, as it seems from a random sampling of 100 websites that I put > into an array and checked with a simple, dumb script. > >Eventually, perhaps sooner than later (though I hate that phrase), > curiosity is going to lead me to build a spider and database to > collect some real samples and do some metrics. Probably later this > week, in fact I would advise you against wasting your time because there is no reliable way to tell what systems a server is actually using to serve pages. Nearly all sites I work on these days use techniques to remove extensions from URLs, and a fair few hide all details of the server software for a variety of reasons. Since you can't say with any certainty what your margin of error is, the numbers will be meaningless as a measure of language usage. Having said that it's been a while since I wrote a spider, shame I don't have time to have a go at the moment. Have fun ;-) -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 14:58, Shawn McKenzie wrote: >> > And HTM shows 701M, so it is now beating out ASP :-) Another bone of contention is the masking --- I mentioned it briefly in my original remarks in this thread, but on further investigation, it may actually have a substantial impact on numbers. More sites are using mod_rewrite and similar tactics to use extensionless URL's and SEFU's (Search Engine-Friendly URL's) than ASP, as it seems from a random sampling of 100 websites that I put into an array and checked with a simple, dumb script. Eventually, perhaps sooner than later (though I hate that phrase), curiosity is going to lead me to build a spider and database to collect some real samples and do some metrics. Probably later this week, in fact -- daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
Daniel Brown wrote: > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 14:39, Andrew Ballard wrote: >> For what it's worth, you missed .do, .dll, .exe, and I'm sure others >> (yes, I've seen web sites running what I assume to be compiled web >> applications with all of these extensions) as well as anything using >> URL rewriting such as Zend Framework's MVC, and who knows what else. >> Stats could also be blurred by redundant sites with multiple domain >> names, aliases, etc. > > Yeah, I realized right after posting that I'd forgotten to include > ColdFusion as well. I wasn't going to include AppleScript, C, and the > other various languages, because it really does get too overwhelming > for basic metrics, but you're absolutely correct about DLL's and > EXE's. > And HTM shows 701M, so it is now beating out ASP :-) -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 14:39, Andrew Ballard wrote: > > For what it's worth, you missed .do, .dll, .exe, and I'm sure others > (yes, I've seen web sites running what I assume to be compiled web > applications with all of these extensions) as well as anything using > URL rewriting such as Zend Framework's MVC, and who knows what else. > Stats could also be blurred by redundant sites with multiple domain > names, aliases, etc. Yeah, I realized right after posting that I'd forgotten to include ColdFusion as well. I wasn't going to include AppleScript, C, and the other various languages, because it really does get too overwhelming for basic metrics, but you're absolutely correct about DLL's and EXE's. -- daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Daniel Brown wrote: > On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 09:35, Richard Heyes wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Can anyone point out some general statistics on PHP usage compared to >> other server languages? I've tried Netcraft, but they only appear (or >> I've only found) to have statistics on the httpd server used. > >All @php.net addresses reject Google links for me (and probably > you, too), so I copied the message from my 'Sent' folder to a blog I > just put up about 4:30a this morning. There's some basic metrics on > PHP vs. ASP, etc. there: > > > http://oidk.net/archives/5-Some-Interesting-Metrics-on-PHP-vs-ASP-vs-etc..html > Interesting. It's probably not bad for a rough estimate of the number of scripted pages on the web, still accounting for reasonable margin of error. As you note though, its the number of pages -- not sites -- indexed. For what it's worth, you missed .do, .dll, .exe, and I'm sure others (yes, I've seen web sites running what I assume to be compiled web applications with all of these extensions) as well as anything using URL rewriting such as Zend Framework's MVC, and who knows what else. Stats could also be blurred by redundant sites with multiple domain names, aliases, etc. [Google URL]/search?q=site%3A.com+filetype%3Ado 141M [Google URL]/search?q=site%3A.com+filetype%3Adll 62.1M [Google URL]/search?q=site%3A.com+filetype%3Aexe 7.6M Of course, with extensions like .dll or .exe it's hard to tell whether the indexed resource is a compiled web app or if it is a file available for downloading. Definitely still a slippery number to pin down. Nice use of Google though. :) Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Daniel Brown wrote: > On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 09:35, Richard Heyes wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Can anyone point out some general statistics on PHP usage compared to >> other server languages? I've tried Netcraft, but they only appear (or >> I've only found) to have statistics on the httpd server used. > >All @php.net addresses reject Google links for me (and probably > you, too), so I copied the message from my 'Sent' folder to a blog I > just put up about 4:30a this morning. There's some basic metrics on > PHP vs. ASP, etc. there: > > > http://oidk.net/archives/5-Some-Interesting-Metrics-on-PHP-vs-ASP-vs-etc..html > > -- > > daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net > http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ > Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > After disusing this, I leave you with this... Good luck my friend. Good luck... -- Kyle Terry | www.kyleterry.com Help kick start VOOM (Very Open Object Model) for a library of PHP classes. http://www.voom.me | IRC EFNet #voom -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 09:35, Richard Heyes wrote: > Hi, > > Can anyone point out some general statistics on PHP usage compared to > other server languages? I've tried Netcraft, but they only appear (or > I've only found) to have statistics on the httpd server used. All @php.net addresses reject Google links for me (and probably you, too), so I copied the message from my 'Sent' folder to a blog I just put up about 4:30a this morning. There's some basic metrics on PHP vs. ASP, etc. there: http://oidk.net/archives/5-Some-Interesting-Metrics-on-PHP-vs-ASP-vs-etc..html -- daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ Unadvertised dedicated server deals, too low to print - email me to find out! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
2009/2/9 Andrew Ballard : > On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:10 AM, tedd wrote: >> At 10:02 AM -0500 2/9/09, Andrew Ballard wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Paul M Foster >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Perhaps a better question then might be how many IIS servers are there out there compared to Apache. Apache servers uniformly support PHP, but I think only IIS servers support ASP (I could be wrong). >>> >>> We're running PHP under IIS where I currently work. For that matter, >>> I'm pretty sure the headers spit out that both ASP.NET and PHP are >>> supported on these machines, even though we're not currently using >>> ASP.NET. >> >> So using IIS v Apache is not a good measure for trying to determine php and >> asp numbers, right? >> >> Cheers, >> >> tedd > > Probably not. For that matter, ColdFusion under both IIS and Apache on > either Windows or Linux (though the only couple installations I've > seen have been on Windows/IIS). You could get a reasonable ballpark > from something like netcraft, but I think Stuart is right on the money > when it comes to the problems you'll have with margin of error. For > that matter, I wonder how useful some of the newer smashups I've seen > like builtwith.com really can be, if sites are configured to hide the > headers that identify the server software and/or supported languages. builtwith.com actually state on their site that "many sites report PHP usage even if it is not being used" so they know their methods are not at all accurate. In fact for two of the sites I maintain it's way off because they don't expose the use of PHP or Apache. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:10 AM, tedd wrote: > At 10:02 AM -0500 2/9/09, Andrew Ballard wrote: >> >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Paul M Foster >> wrote: >> >> > Perhaps a better question then might be how many IIS servers are there >>> >>> out there compared to Apache. Apache servers uniformly support PHP, but >>> I think only IIS servers support ASP (I could be wrong). >> >> We're running PHP under IIS where I currently work. For that matter, >> I'm pretty sure the headers spit out that both ASP.NET and PHP are >> supported on these machines, even though we're not currently using >> ASP.NET. > > So using IIS v Apache is not a good measure for trying to determine php and > asp numbers, right? > > Cheers, > > tedd Probably not. For that matter, ColdFusion under both IIS and Apache on either Windows or Linux (though the only couple installations I've seen have been on Windows/IIS). You could get a reasonable ballpark from something like netcraft, but I think Stuart is right on the money when it comes to the problems you'll have with margin of error. For that matter, I wonder how useful some of the newer smashups I've seen like builtwith.com really can be, if sites are configured to hide the headers that identify the server software and/or supported languages. Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
At 10:02 AM -0500 2/9/09, Andrew Ballard wrote: On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Paul M Foster wrote: > Perhaps a better question then might be how many IIS servers are there out there compared to Apache. Apache servers uniformly support PHP, but I think only IIS servers support ASP (I could be wrong). We're running PHP under IIS where I currently work. For that matter, I'm pretty sure the headers spit out that both ASP.NET and PHP are supported on these machines, even though we're not currently using ASP.NET. So using IIS v Apache is not a good measure for trying to determine php and asp numbers, right? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
At 2:41 PM + 2/9/09, Stuart wrote: I think people are like that everywhere, particularly above a certain level of management in my experience. I wish you luck in convincing them but I've found that PHP rarely wins when put up against the sales and marketing budgets available to Microsoft and Oracle. It's going to take a while for the majority of people to stop equating free with worthless or risky when the truth is that products from closed corporations carry more risk than open source software. You should tell them your QuickBasic story - that might start some mental cogs turning in their heads. Yes, that's another story. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Paul M Foster wrote: > On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 03:20:48PM -0500, tedd wrote: > >> At 3:54 PM + 2/8/09, Stuart wrote: >>> 2009/2/8 tedd : >>> >>> > I wasn't able to find a lot of information, but here's a useful link: >>> > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> >>> Tedd, that's a list of programming languages, not web development >>> languages. >> >> The list shows php, javascript, ruby, and perl -- are those NOT web >> development languages?!? >> >> - >> >>> I have no doubt that C# + VB accounts for more development >>> in the world than PHP. Both are used extensively in non-web >>> development whereas PHP is not. >>> >>> > If you find any information of the numbers of php users out there, >> please >>> > let me know. >>> >>> When you consider how such a thing would be measured it won't take >>> long to realise why the number is not available. You have to bear in >>> mind non-public use which will not be insignificant, servers where PHP >>> is not advertised and a multitude of other reasons why any number you >>> could come up with *will* be wrong, and therefore pretty useless. >>> >>> Why anyone would see value in such a number is beyond me. IMHO the >>> community that exists around it and the number of jobs out there >>> requiring PHP should be enough to convince anyone that it's not an >>> insignificant player. >> >> -Stuart >> >> I guess I'm not all that bright. To me a programming language is a >> programming language regardless of platform or purpose -- that was so >> when I was programming FORTRAN on Phoenix I, or Applesoft on Apple >> ]['s, or postscript on HI's; or ANSI C on Alphas, or FutureBasic and >> C/C++ on Macs, or PHP on Apache, or Javascript on IE -- they are all >> the same to me. I'm just trying to get a handle on the number of >> people who program in php -- what's wrong with wanting to know that >> figure? >> >> Look, I teach at the local college and am trying to get PHP/MySQL >> courses to be taught there. I have superiors who are asking "How does >> PHP stack up against ASP?" which the college teaches AS THE web >> development language. I really can't go back to them and say "Well, >> everyone just *knows* PHP is a significant player" -- that's not >> proof. > > Perhaps a better question then might be how many IIS servers are there > out there compared to Apache. Apache servers uniformly support PHP, but > I think only IIS servers support ASP (I could be wrong). We're running PHP under IIS where I currently work. For that matter, I'm pretty sure the headers spit out that both ASP.NET and PHP are supported on these machines, even though we're not currently using ASP.NET. Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
2009/2/9 tedd : >> > Now maybe you didn't mean it that way, but IMO that appears more >> demeaning >>> >>> of the poster than providing help. I'm surprised, because that's not >>> typical >>> of you nor this list. >> >> Indeed. Not really sure what I was thinking when I wrote it and I >> apologise for the attitude. > > We all have off days, no problem -- thanks for the apology. > > On my side of the world, it's amazing how ignorant people are. > > I have administrators at the college, where I teach, who think that php is > nothing more than a fad and not anything serious. In fact, I talked to their > web guy, who is a avid php/mysql developer, and he says that the > administration is asking to have php and mysql removed completely from their > server. They only want asp and oracle. In the last 6 years they have spent > over $22 million on trying get oracle to work and it still hasn't. > > That's the reason why I've been looking for php stats. I think people are like that everywhere, particularly above a certain level of management in my experience. I wish you luck in convincing them but I've found that PHP rarely wins when put up against the sales and marketing budgets available to Microsoft and Oracle. It's going to take a while for the majority of people to stop equating free with worthless or risky when the truth is that products from closed corporations carry more risk than open source software. You should tell them your QuickBasic story - that might start some mental cogs turning in their heads. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
> Now maybe you didn't mean it that way, but IMO that appears more demeaning of the poster than providing help. I'm surprised, because that's not typical of you nor this list. Indeed. Not really sure what I was thinking when I wrote it and I apologise for the attitude. We all have off days, no problem -- thanks for the apology. On my side of the world, it's amazing how ignorant people are. I have administrators at the college, where I teach, who think that php is nothing more than a fad and not anything serious. In fact, I talked to their web guy, who is a avid php/mysql developer, and he says that the administration is asking to have php and mysql removed completely from their server. They only want asp and oracle. In the last 6 years they have spent over $22 million on trying get oracle to work and it still hasn't. That's the reason why I've been looking for php stats. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
2009/2/8 tedd : > At 8:44 PM + 2/8/09, Stuart wrote: >> >> 2009/2/8 tedd : >> >> > just trying to get a handle on the number of people who program in php >> -- >>> >>> what's wrong with wanting to know that figure? >> >> There's nothing wrong with wanting to know it, there's just no >> reliable way to measure it so why bother asking for it? > > Huh!? > > I must be getting dumber by the minute. > > If you don't know there's no reliable way to measure something, then what's > wrong with asking about it? At least now I can say "There's no reliable way > to determine that figure, so I don't know the answer." > > Sometimes trying to get a question answered on this list is a bit like > running through a gauntlet of "Why are you asking that? You should know > better!" > > Now maybe you didn't mean it that way, but IMO that appears more demeaning > of the poster than providing help. I'm surprised, because that's not typical > of you nor this list. Indeed. Not really sure what I was thinking when I wrote it and I apologise for the attitude. Asking questions should never be discouraged, but the point still stands that it's important to understand the margin of error in the answer. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
At 3:37 PM -0500 2/8/09, Paul M Foster wrote: Perhaps a better question then might be how many IIS servers are there out there compared to Apache. Apache servers uniformly support PHP, but I think only IIS servers support ASP (I could be wrong). There's also the FOSS argument. I'm continually surprised the pinheads in academia don't see the value of FOSS compared to being beholden to huge corporate behemoths like Microsoft. Paul Paul: If that is the case, then data like this: http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2007/06/web-server-software-and-malware.html might be useful. Excepting of course, if it isn't useful and I should have known better before posting, then disregard. With that proviso, consider this: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html It's an interesting read re this months figures. In any event, it appears that Apache is certainly leading with a respectable lead. One could conclude from that, that at least PHP has more installations than ASP -- would that not be so? There are a large number of other sites to consider -- I just have not got to them yet. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
At 8:44 PM + 2/8/09, Stuart wrote: 2009/2/8 tedd : > just trying to get a handle on the number of people who program in php -- what's wrong with wanting to know that figure? There's nothing wrong with wanting to know it, there's just no reliable way to measure it so why bother asking for it? Huh!? I must be getting dumber by the minute. If you don't know there's no reliable way to measure something, then what's wrong with asking about it? At least now I can say "There's no reliable way to determine that figure, so I don't know the answer." Sometimes trying to get a question answered on this list is a bit like running through a gauntlet of "Why are you asking that? You should know better!" Now maybe you didn't mean it that way, but IMO that appears more demeaning of the poster than providing help. I'm surprised, because that's not typical of you nor this list. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 15:37 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: > On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 03:20:48PM -0500, tedd wrote: > > > At 3:54 PM + 2/8/09, Stuart wrote: > >> 2009/2/8 tedd : > >> > >> > I wasn't able to find a lot of information, but here's a useful link: > >>> > >> > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html > >> > >> Tedd, that's a list of programming languages, not web development > >> languages. > > > > The list shows php, javascript, ruby, and perl -- are those NOT web > > development languages?!? > > > > - > > > >> I have no doubt that C# + VB accounts for more development > >> in the world than PHP. Both are used extensively in non-web > >> development whereas PHP is not. > >> > >> > If you find any information of the numbers of php users out there, > > please > >> > let me know. > >> > >> When you consider how such a thing would be measured it won't take > >> long to realise why the number is not available. You have to bear in > >> mind non-public use which will not be insignificant, servers where PHP > >> is not advertised and a multitude of other reasons why any number you > >> could come up with *will* be wrong, and therefore pretty useless. > >> > >> Why anyone would see value in such a number is beyond me. IMHO the > >> community that exists around it and the number of jobs out there > >> requiring PHP should be enough to convince anyone that it's not an > >> insignificant player. > > > > -Stuart > > > > I guess I'm not all that bright. To me a programming language is a > > programming language regardless of platform or purpose -- that was so > > when I was programming FORTRAN on Phoenix I, or Applesoft on Apple > > ]['s, or postscript on HI's; or ANSI C on Alphas, or FutureBasic and > > C/C++ on Macs, or PHP on Apache, or Javascript on IE -- they are all > > the same to me. I'm just trying to get a handle on the number of > > people who program in php -- what's wrong with wanting to know that > > figure? > > > > Look, I teach at the local college and am trying to get PHP/MySQL > > courses to be taught there. I have superiors who are asking "How does > > PHP stack up against ASP?" which the college teaches AS THE web > > development language. I really can't go back to them and say "Well, > > everyone just *knows* PHP is a significant player" -- that's not > > proof. > > Perhaps a better question then might be how many IIS servers are there > out there compared to Apache. Apache servers uniformly support PHP, but > I think only IIS servers support ASP (I could be wrong). There's also > the FOSS argument. I'm continually surprised the pinheads in academia > don't see the value of FOSS compared to being beholden to huge corporate > behemoths like Microsoft. > > Paul > > -- > Paul M. Foster > I'm not sure that would be much help either. ASP.Net is available on Apache with the mono modules, and PHP is available on IIS. Maybe another way to determine language popularity would be to obtain a list (of suitable length) of the top websites, probably through the lists released by the major search engines; and then try as best as possible to determine the language used for each site. In some cases this may not be possible, i.e. a website hides the language it uses so well you can't see it, but the resulting list should be a fair distribution of language popularity. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
2009/2/8 tedd : > At 3:54 PM + 2/8/09, Stuart wrote: >> >> 2009/2/8 tedd : >> >> > I wasn't able to find a lot of information, but here's a useful link: >>> >> > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >> >> Tedd, that's a list of programming languages, not web development >> languages. > > The list shows php, javascript, ruby, and perl -- are those NOT web > development languages?!? I didn't say it doesn't include web development languages, just that it's not limited to them. >> I have no doubt that C# + VB accounts for more development >> in the world than PHP. Both are used extensively in non-web >> development whereas PHP is not. >> >> > If you find any information of the numbers of php users out there, >> please >> > let me know. >> >> When you consider how such a thing would be measured it won't take >> long to realise why the number is not available. You have to bear in >> mind non-public use which will not be insignificant, servers where PHP >> is not advertised and a multitude of other reasons why any number you >> could come up with *will* be wrong, and therefore pretty useless. >> >> Why anyone would see value in such a number is beyond me. IMHO the >> community that exists around it and the number of jobs out there >> requiring PHP should be enough to convince anyone that it's not an >> insignificant player. > > -Stuart > > I guess I'm not all that bright. To me a programming language is a > programming language regardless of platform or purpose -- that was so when I > was programming FORTRAN on Phoenix I, or Applesoft on Apple ]['s, or > postscript on HI's; or ANSI C on Alphas, or FutureBasic and C/C++ on Macs, > or PHP on Apache, or Javascript on IE -- they are all the same to me. I'm > just trying to get a handle on the number of people who program in php -- > what's wrong with wanting to know that figure? There's nothing wrong with wanting to know it, there's just no reliable way to measure it so why bother asking for it? > Look, I teach at the local college and am trying to get PHP/MySQL courses to > be taught there. I have superiors who are asking "How does PHP stack up > against ASP?" which the college teaches AS THE web development language. I > really can't go back to them and say "Well, everyone just *knows* PHP is a > significant player" -- that's not proof. Ask them for proof that ASP is worth teaching over PHP? I bet they have just as much trouble coming up with solid proof that ASP as a platform is any more popular than PHP, or more valuable as a teaching language. When I was at university we were taught Java rather than C++ because, and I quote one of the professors, "we don't need to teach you proper memory management". I count myself lucky that I'd learnt C++ 12 years before I got there. I suggest you point them at the big players in the web world who use PHP... Facebook, Yahoo, etc. If that doesn't convince them of its importance in the world of web development nothing will. > Sometimes I have to wonder why anyone would question an honest question? I'm not questioning the question, I'm questioning the accuracy of any answer you could possibly come up. Describe a practical method of measuring language use that's likely to yield an accurate result then I'll eat my words, but I'm yet to come up with one. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 03:20:48PM -0500, tedd wrote: > At 3:54 PM + 2/8/09, Stuart wrote: >> 2009/2/8 tedd : >> >> > I wasn't able to find a lot of information, but here's a useful link: >>> >> > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >> >> Tedd, that's a list of programming languages, not web development >> languages. > > The list shows php, javascript, ruby, and perl -- are those NOT web > development languages?!? > > - > >> I have no doubt that C# + VB accounts for more development >> in the world than PHP. Both are used extensively in non-web >> development whereas PHP is not. >> >> > If you find any information of the numbers of php users out there, > please >> > let me know. >> >> When you consider how such a thing would be measured it won't take >> long to realise why the number is not available. You have to bear in >> mind non-public use which will not be insignificant, servers where PHP >> is not advertised and a multitude of other reasons why any number you >> could come up with *will* be wrong, and therefore pretty useless. >> >> Why anyone would see value in such a number is beyond me. IMHO the >> community that exists around it and the number of jobs out there >> requiring PHP should be enough to convince anyone that it's not an >> insignificant player. > > -Stuart > > I guess I'm not all that bright. To me a programming language is a > programming language regardless of platform or purpose -- that was so > when I was programming FORTRAN on Phoenix I, or Applesoft on Apple > ]['s, or postscript on HI's; or ANSI C on Alphas, or FutureBasic and > C/C++ on Macs, or PHP on Apache, or Javascript on IE -- they are all > the same to me. I'm just trying to get a handle on the number of > people who program in php -- what's wrong with wanting to know that > figure? > > Look, I teach at the local college and am trying to get PHP/MySQL > courses to be taught there. I have superiors who are asking "How does > PHP stack up against ASP?" which the college teaches AS THE web > development language. I really can't go back to them and say "Well, > everyone just *knows* PHP is a significant player" -- that's not > proof. Perhaps a better question then might be how many IIS servers are there out there compared to Apache. Apache servers uniformly support PHP, but I think only IIS servers support ASP (I could be wrong). There's also the FOSS argument. I'm continually surprised the pinheads in academia don't see the value of FOSS compared to being beholden to huge corporate behemoths like Microsoft. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
At 3:54 PM + 2/8/09, Stuart wrote: 2009/2/8 tedd : > I wasn't able to find a lot of information, but here's a useful link: > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html Tedd, that's a list of programming languages, not web development languages. The list shows php, javascript, ruby, and perl -- are those NOT web development languages?!? - I have no doubt that C# + VB accounts for more development in the world than PHP. Both are used extensively in non-web development whereas PHP is not. > If you find any information of the numbers of php users out there, please > let me know. When you consider how such a thing would be measured it won't take long to realise why the number is not available. You have to bear in mind non-public use which will not be insignificant, servers where PHP is not advertised and a multitude of other reasons why any number you could come up with *will* be wrong, and therefore pretty useless. Why anyone would see value in such a number is beyond me. IMHO the community that exists around it and the number of jobs out there requiring PHP should be enough to convince anyone that it's not an insignificant player. -Stuart I guess I'm not all that bright. To me a programming language is a programming language regardless of platform or purpose -- that was so when I was programming FORTRAN on Phoenix I, or Applesoft on Apple ]['s, or postscript on HI's; or ANSI C on Alphas, or FutureBasic and C/C++ on Macs, or PHP on Apache, or Javascript on IE -- they are all the same to me. I'm just trying to get a handle on the number of people who program in php -- what's wrong with wanting to know that figure? Look, I teach at the local college and am trying to get PHP/MySQL courses to be taught there. I have superiors who are asking "How does PHP stack up against ASP?" which the college teaches AS THE web development language. I really can't go back to them and say "Well, everyone just *knows* PHP is a significant player" -- that's not proof. Sometimes I have to wonder why anyone would question an honest question? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
Hi, > Why anyone would see value in such a number is beyond me. Just trying to get an (over)view of the market. -- Richard Heyes HTML5 Canvas graphing for Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari: http://www.rgraph.org (Updated January 31st) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
2009/2/8 tedd : > At 2:35 PM + 2/8/09, Richard Heyes wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Can anyone point out some general statistics on PHP usage compared to >> other server languages? I've tried Netcraft, but they only appear (or >> I've only found) to have statistics on the httpd server used. >> >> Thanks. >> >> -- >> Richard Heyes > > Richard: > > I went looking for that same information a few weeks ago myself. > > I wasn't able to find a lot of information, but here's a useful link: > > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html > > I wrote them and asked for "where's ASP" in that listing. You see, I wanted > to compare the number of ASP users to the number of PHP users -- I was > thinking that ASP is the closest language to be PHP's competition (I may be > wrong). They wrote back: > > "Thanks for your feedback on our TIOBE index. ASP is not a programming > language as such, that's why it is not part of the index. Please read the > FAQ at the end of the page (or search for ASP on the page) for more details. > If you want to compare PHP to ASP, here are my 2 cents. You could combine > Visual Basic and C# to get a guestimate. Then ASP is 14.8% versus PHP 8.9%." > > The only thing that brothers me about the 8.9 percent is how can that be if > there are millions of web sites that use php and that number is growing? > Additionally, this month they report a lower percentage for php than they > did last month -- it appears that something is wrong. Tedd, that's a list of programming languages, not web development languages. I have no doubt that C# + VB accounts for more development in the world than PHP. Both are used extensively in non-web development whereas PHP is not. > If you find any information of the numbers of php users out there, please > let me know. When you consider how such a thing would be measured it won't take long to realise why the number is not available. You have to bear in mind non-public use which will not be insignificant, servers where PHP is not advertised and a multitude of other reasons why any number you could come up with *will* be wrong, and therefore pretty useless. Why anyone would see value in such a number is beyond me. IMHO the community that exists around it and the number of jobs out there requiring PHP should be enough to convince anyone that it's not an insignificant player. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP usage stats
At 2:35 PM + 2/8/09, Richard Heyes wrote: Hi, Can anyone point out some general statistics on PHP usage compared to other server languages? I've tried Netcraft, but they only appear (or I've only found) to have statistics on the httpd server used. Thanks. -- Richard Heyes Richard: I went looking for that same information a few weeks ago myself. I wasn't able to find a lot of information, but here's a useful link: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html I wrote them and asked for "where's ASP" in that listing. You see, I wanted to compare the number of ASP users to the number of PHP users -- I was thinking that ASP is the closest language to be PHP's competition (I may be wrong). They wrote back: "Thanks for your feedback on our TIOBE index. ASP is not a programming language as such, that's why it is not part of the index. Please read the FAQ at the end of the page (or search for ASP on the page) for more details. If you want to compare PHP to ASP, here are my 2 cents. You could combine Visual Basic and C# to get a guestimate. Then ASP is 14.8% versus PHP 8.9%." The only thing that brothers me about the 8.9 percent is how can that be if there are millions of web sites that use php and that number is growing? Additionally, this month they report a lower percentage for php than they did last month -- it appears that something is wrong. If you find any information of the numbers of php users out there, please let me know. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] PHP usage stats
Hi, Can anyone point out some general statistics on PHP usage compared to other server languages? I've tried Netcraft, but they only appear (or I've only found) to have statistics on the httpd server used. Thanks. -- Richard Heyes HTML5 Canvas graphing for Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari: http://www.rgraph.org (Updated January 31st) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] usage stats
--- Victor_Saldaña_D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i need to found usage stats for a paper in my work. > > i found some stats, but the method is not very strong. > > any link please You want a combination of this: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html and this: http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/man.200408/apachemods.html Hope that helps. Chris = Chris Shiflett - http://shiflett.org/ PHP Security - O'Reilly Coming December 2004 HTTP Developer's Handbook - Sams http://httphandbook.org/ PHP Community Site http://phpcommunity.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] usage stats
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:29:20 -0400, Victor Saldaña D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i need to found usage stats for a paper in my work. > > i found some stats, but the method is not very strong. > > any link please I use it, and a bunch of guys named John use it. That's like 3 or 4 of us at least. :) Check out netcraft.com, they seem to be the defacto standard for stuff like this. -- Greg Donald http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] usage stats
hi people, i need to found usage stats for a paper in my work. i found some stats, but the method is not very strong. any link please -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] usage stats
G'day all, I am putting together a small piece on php and was wondering if anyone knew how to dynamically generate the php usage stats from: http://www.netcraft.com/Survey/ Sort of want something like: http://www.php.net/usage.php Have looked at the source looks like this is manually updated? Thought there may be some way of grabbing the stats and generate my own graph with gd or something? Any ideas? Regards, Joseph -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] PHP Usage Stats
That Report doesn't seem to identify PHP version only total Matt McClanahan wrote: > On Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 10:11:50AM -0800, Chris wrote: > > > Are there any refrences that would indicate the percent of sites (PHP > > installs) using various versions of PHP (i.e., 60% PHP4, 30% PHP3, > > etc.)? > > See the top of http://php.net which refers to usage stats provided by > Netcraft and SecuritySpace. > > Matt -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] PHP Usage Stats
On Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 10:11:50AM -0800, Chris wrote: > Are there any refrences that would indicate the percent of sites (PHP > installs) using various versions of PHP (i.e., 60% PHP4, 30% PHP3, > etc.)? See the top of http://php.net which refers to usage stats provided by Netcraft and SecuritySpace. Matt -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP] PHP Usage Stats
Are there any refrences that would indicate the percent of sites (PHP installs) using various versions of PHP (i.e., 60% PHP4, 30% PHP3, etc.)? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
