Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
On Nov 30, 2007 10:41 AM, Philip Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 28, 2007 9:48 AM, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning (/afternoon/evening) all; This is more or less an RFC-type email, hence the subject line. I would like to see your comments on this case, and maybe we can forge some sort of agreement or unofficial treaty or something. Oftentimes we see a user post a question to the list, with ongoing discussion back-and-forth on a troublesome issue, and when a solution is found, the subject line has an added [SOLVED] tag on it. While this makes sense in a forum style arena, where posts are binded statically in the same group, it defeats the purpose of mailing list archives such as Nabble and GMANE. A recent email from this morning illustrates the problem, as displayed presently at this page: http://www.nabble.com/PHP---General-f140.html The email with the subject The PHP License received commentary from both Jochem Maas and myself, and the OP (AmirBehzad Eslami) replied to the message, appending the [SOLVED] tag to the subject. This is not a serious issue in this particular matter, as it was a simple thank-you message out of politeness (which is greatly appreciated, Amir!). However, using just a single example should help to emphasize my point exponentially when you consider the frequency of occurrences we see following the [SOLVED]-appended route. On 12 September, 2007, Zbigniew Szalbot posted a message to the list about a segmentation fault in PHP 5.2.3. Over the next 24 hours-plus, exactly sixty comments passed back-and-forth on the thread. When a solution was found, it was posted in a separate email with the [SOLVED] tag added to the subject line, and two additional comments added to that (entirely new) thread. Why is this such a critical issue? Because if we hope not to have to answer the same questions over and over again, instructing people to properly STFW, then we should at least be contributing to proper archival and documentation of problems we've successfully solved. Using the aforementioned example, we check Google for the same problem: http://www.google.com/search?q=php+5.2.3+segmentation+fault+core+dumped Hooray! Someone else has had the exact same list of problems, and now I can simply go through all of the responses and it should (fingers crossed!) correct my issues as well. Message 58 59 getting close! sixty-one WHAT?!? No solution? Back to Google only to find that each result is exactly the same discussion, never including the final three emails. So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. Comments welcomed! -- Daniel P. Brown [office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272 [mobile] (570-) 766-8107 I haven't checked this mail in several days. So... sorry if this thread is defunct. =D As others have mentioned, the problem is hitting New email. Many (Dare I say all? No, no. No I won't.) email clients are smart enough to thread emails even if the subject has changed (and I know we have discussed that issue as well). So, hitting reply and adding on [SOLVED] *shouldn't* do anything... theoretically to break the thread and start a new one. Here's the real kicker... how do we enforce your proposed suggestion(s)? As active as this list is with new people coming regularly, the newer people won't know these *rules*. Throwing it on the welcome message, IMO, would only hit the people who read it which is probably about 5%. Oh, I have an idea... let's have a test! just to get on the list! You have to pass the test to send/receive messages! Ok, since it's taken me 30 minutes to write this email (I keep getting distracted), I'm quitting... Any thoughts? ~Philip My thoughts were for us, the actual contributing community, to take the few seconds to do this ourselves. If someone pops in, asks a question, and gets a response that solves it, then starts a new thread with [SOLVED] in there, perhaps we could ask them to reply back to the original thread, or even copy and paste it into the original thread ourselves. I know it will take one of us a few seconds, which can mean the difference between life and death (), but in the long run, I really believe it will save a lot of grief. Of course, it would only really need to be copied back to the original thread if it was
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
On Nov 28, 2007 9:48 AM, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning (/afternoon/evening) all; This is more or less an RFC-type email, hence the subject line. I would like to see your comments on this case, and maybe we can forge some sort of agreement or unofficial treaty or something. Oftentimes we see a user post a question to the list, with ongoing discussion back-and-forth on a troublesome issue, and when a solution is found, the subject line has an added [SOLVED] tag on it. While this makes sense in a forum style arena, where posts are binded statically in the same group, it defeats the purpose of mailing list archives such as Nabble and GMANE. A recent email from this morning illustrates the problem, as displayed presently at this page: http://www.nabble.com/PHP---General-f140.html The email with the subject The PHP License received commentary from both Jochem Maas and myself, and the OP (AmirBehzad Eslami) replied to the message, appending the [SOLVED] tag to the subject. This is not a serious issue in this particular matter, as it was a simple thank-you message out of politeness (which is greatly appreciated, Amir!). However, using just a single example should help to emphasize my point exponentially when you consider the frequency of occurrences we see following the [SOLVED]-appended route. On 12 September, 2007, Zbigniew Szalbot posted a message to the list about a segmentation fault in PHP 5.2.3. Over the next 24 hours-plus, exactly sixty comments passed back-and-forth on the thread. When a solution was found, it was posted in a separate email with the [SOLVED] tag added to the subject line, and two additional comments added to that (entirely new) thread. Why is this such a critical issue? Because if we hope not to have to answer the same questions over and over again, instructing people to properly STFW, then we should at least be contributing to proper archival and documentation of problems we've successfully solved. Using the aforementioned example, we check Google for the same problem: http://www.google.com/search?q=php+5.2.3+segmentation+fault+core+dumped Hooray! Someone else has had the exact same list of problems, and now I can simply go through all of the responses and it should (fingers crossed!) correct my issues as well. Message 58 59 getting close! sixty-one WHAT?!? No solution? Back to Google only to find that each result is exactly the same discussion, never including the final three emails. So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. Comments welcomed! -- Daniel P. Brown [office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272 [mobile] (570-) 766-8107 I haven't checked this mail in several days. So... sorry if this thread is defunct. =D As others have mentioned, the problem is hitting New email. Many (Dare I say all? No, no. No I won't.) email clients are smart enough to thread emails even if the subject has changed (and I know we have discussed that issue as well). So, hitting reply and adding on [SOLVED] *shouldn't* do anything... theoretically to break the thread and start a new one. Here's the real kicker... how do we enforce your proposed suggestion(s)? As active as this list is with new people coming regularly, the newer people won't know these *rules*. Throwing it on the welcome message, IMO, would only hit the people who read it which is probably about 5%. Oh, I have an idea... let's have a test! just to get on the list! You have to pass the test to send/receive messages! Ok, since it's taken me 30 minutes to write this email (I keep getting distracted), I'm quitting... Any thoughts? ~Philip
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
On Nov 28, 2007 10:48 AM, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning (/afternoon/evening) all; This is more or less an RFC-type email, hence the subject line. I would like to see your comments on this case, and maybe we can forge some sort of agreement or unofficial treaty or something. Oftentimes we see a user post a question to the list, with ongoing discussion back-and-forth on a troublesome issue, and when a solution is found, the subject line has an added [SOLVED] tag on it. While this makes sense in a forum style arena, where posts are binded statically in the same group, it defeats the purpose of mailing list archives such as Nabble and GMANE. A recent email from this morning illustrates the problem, as displayed presently at this page: http://www.nabble.com/PHP---General-f140.html The email with the subject The PHP License received commentary from both Jochem Maas and myself, and the OP (AmirBehzad Eslami) replied to the message, appending the [SOLVED] tag to the subject. This is not a serious issue in this particular matter, as it was a simple thank-you message out of politeness (which is greatly appreciated, Amir!). However, using just a single example should help to emphasize my point exponentially when you consider the frequency of occurrences we see following the [SOLVED]-appended route. On 12 September, 2007, Zbigniew Szalbot posted a message to the list about a segmentation fault in PHP 5.2.3. Over the next 24 hours-plus, exactly sixty comments passed back-and-forth on the thread. When a solution was found, it was posted in a separate email with the [SOLVED] tag added to the subject line, and two additional comments added to that (entirely new) thread. Why is this such a critical issue? Because if we hope not to have to answer the same questions over and over again, instructing people to properly STFW, then we should at least be contributing to proper archival and documentation of problems we've successfully solved. Using the aforementioned example, we check Google for the same problem: http://www.google.com/search?q=php+5.2.3+segmentation+fault+core+dumped Hooray! Someone else has had the exact same list of problems, and now I can simply go through all of the responses and it should (fingers crossed!) correct my issues as well. Message 58 59 getting close! sixty-one WHAT?!? No solution? Back to Google only to find that each result is exactly the same discussion, never including the final three emails. So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. i agree; [SOLVED] on a separate email is nonsense; it makes perfect sense in the context of a forum, but not on a mailing list. this issue has been annoying me for sometime. however the only problem with your proposal is the following: new users will enter the list sporadically as they already do. anybody who enters the list after this agreement is made (assuming it is universally accepted) will not be privy to the agreement. also, anybody who hasnt bothered to keep up with the list today will probly gloss over it and also ignore (inadvertently) the agreement. its a good idea, but i doubt well ever see it come to fruition. -nathan
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
On Nov 28, 2007 10:56 AM, Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 28, 2007 10:48 AM, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning (/afternoon/evening) all; This is more or less an RFC-type email, hence the subject line. I would like to see your comments on this case, and maybe we can forge some sort of agreement or unofficial treaty or something. Oftentimes we see a user post a question to the list, with ongoing discussion back-and-forth on a troublesome issue, and when a solution is found, the subject line has an added [SOLVED] tag on it. While this makes sense in a forum style arena, where posts are binded statically in the same group, it defeats the purpose of mailing list archives such as Nabble and GMANE. A recent email from this morning illustrates the problem, as displayed presently at this page: http://www.nabble.com/PHP---General-f140.html The email with the subject The PHP License received commentary from both Jochem Maas and myself, and the OP (AmirBehzad Eslami) replied to the message, appending the [SOLVED] tag to the subject. This is not a serious issue in this particular matter, as it was a simple thank-you message out of politeness (which is greatly appreciated, Amir!). However, using just a single example should help to emphasize my point exponentially when you consider the frequency of occurrences we see following the [SOLVED]-appended route. On 12 September, 2007, Zbigniew Szalbot posted a message to the list about a segmentation fault in PHP 5.2.3. Over the next 24 hours-plus, exactly sixty comments passed back-and-forth on the thread. When a solution was found, it was posted in a separate email with the [SOLVED] tag added to the subject line, and two additional comments added to that (entirely new) thread. Why is this such a critical issue? Because if we hope not to have to answer the same questions over and over again, instructing people to properly STFW, then we should at least be contributing to proper archival and documentation of problems we've successfully solved. Using the aforementioned example, we check Google for the same problem: http://www.google.com/search?q=php+5.2.3+segmentation+fault+core+dumped Hooray! Someone else has had the exact same list of problems, and now I can simply go through all of the responses and it should (fingers crossed!) correct my issues as well. Message 58 59 getting close! sixty-one WHAT?!? No solution? Back to Google only to find that each result is exactly the same discussion, never including the final three emails. So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. i agree; [SOLVED] on a separate email is nonsense; it makes perfect sense in the context of a forum, but not on a mailing list. this issue has been annoying me for sometime. however the only problem with your proposal is the following: new users will enter the list sporadically as they already do. anybody who enters the list after this agreement is made (assuming it is universally accepted) will not be privy to the agreement. also, anybody who hasnt bothered to keep up with the list today will probly gloss over it and also ignore (inadvertently) the agreement. its a good idea, but i doubt well ever see it come to fruition. -nathan Well, the part I forgot to type into the proposal was also that we discourage the appending of the SOLVED tag to the subject, and reply to the original email instructing the user not to add the tag. When someone replies off-list, we take the moment to reply-all it back to the php-general list and inform the user as to why we're doing it. It takes only a second, and in both cases can save hours of aggravation for someone who actually does STFW. -- Daniel P. Brown [office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272 [mobile] (570-) 766-8107 If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
On Nov 28, 2007, at 10:56 AM, Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Nov 28, 2007 10:48 AM, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good morning (/afternoon/evening) all; This is more or less an RFC-type email, hence the subject line. I would like to see your comments on this case, and maybe we can forge some sort of agreement or unofficial treaty or something. Oftentimes we see a user post a question to the list, with ongoing discussion back-and-forth on a troublesome issue, and when a solution is found, the subject line has an added [SOLVED] tag on it. While this makes sense in a forum style arena, where posts are binded statically in the same group, it defeats the purpose of mailing list archives such as Nabble and GMANE. A recent email from this morning illustrates the problem, as displayed presently at this page: http://www.nabble.com/PHP---General-f140.html The email with the subject The PHP License received commentary from both Jochem Maas and myself, and the OP (AmirBehzad Eslami) replied to the message, appending the [SOLVED] tag to the subject. This is not a serious issue in this particular matter, as it was a simple thank-you message out of politeness (which is greatly appreciated, Amir!). However, using just a single example should help to emphasize my point exponentially when you consider the frequency of occurrences we see following the [SOLVED]-appended route. On 12 September, 2007, Zbigniew Szalbot posted a message to the list about a segmentation fault in PHP 5.2.3. Over the next 24 hours-plus, exactly sixty comments passed back-and-forth on the thread. When a solution was found, it was posted in a separate email with the [SOLVED] tag added to the subject line, and two additional comments added to that (entirely new) thread. Why is this such a critical issue? Because if we hope not to have to answer the same questions over and over again, instructing people to properly STFW, then we should at least be contributing to proper archival and documentation of problems we've successfully solved. Using the aforementioned example, we check Google for the same problem: http://www.google.com/search?q=php+5.2.3+segmentation+fault+core+dumped Hooray! Someone else has had the exact same list of problems, and now I can simply go through all of the responses and it should (fingers crossed!) correct my issues as well. Message 58 59 getting close! sixty-one WHAT?!? No solution? Back to Google only to find that each result is exactly the same discussion, never including the final three emails. So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. i agree; [SOLVED] on a separate email is nonsense; it makes perfect sense in the context of a forum, but not on a mailing list. this issue has been annoying me for sometime. however the only problem with your proposal is the following: new users will enter the list sporadically as they already do. anybody who enters the list after this agreement is made (assuming it is universally accepted) will not be privy to the agreement. also, anybody who hasnt bothered to keep up with the list today will probly gloss over it and also ignore (inadvertently) the agreement. its a good idea, but i doubt well ever see it come to fruition. Wouldn't it be possible to add it to the Welcome message if we can get the group to agree on it? :) Someone somewhere should have the admin password for changing the welcome message. -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
On Nov 28, 2007 10:56 AM, Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. [/snip] This has been the expected behavior (adding [SOLVED]) for a long time though it does not occur as often as it should. It has been in the NEWBIE GUIDE for a long time and has been a de-facto standard on IT or computer related mailing lists like this for years. Jay, See how simple it was to remove the [SOLVED] tag and maintain the track of the discussion? I'm aware that the NEWBIE GUIDE has that entry. For those not aware: 9. It's always a good idea to post back to the list once you've solved your problem. People usually add [SOLVED] to the subject line of their email when posting solutions. By posting your solution you're helping the next person with the same question. [contribued by Chris W Parker] However, doing this defeats the purpose of a mailing list archive, and prompts unnecessary repetition of help requests for an issue that may have been discussed to death just five days prior. Again, the [SOLVED] tag is great on a forum, where you can quickly scan for that topic that you know has a solution. However, on a mailing list it only serves to create confusion, separation of problem and solution, and exasperation on behalf of the searcher when viewing the issue on a search engine or in the archives. If we expect people to first attempt to help themselves, we should not knowingly contribute to their inevitable failure. -- Daniel P. Brown [office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272 [mobile] (570-) 766-8107 If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette [SOLVED]
[snip] So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. [/snip] This has been the expected behavior (adding [SOLVED]) for a long time though it does not occur as often as it should. It has been in the NEWBIE GUIDE for a long time and has been a de-facto standard on IT or computer related mailing lists like this for years. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
[snip] However, doing this defeats the purpose of a mailing list archive, and prompts unnecessary repetition of help requests for an issue that may have been discussed to death just five days prior. Again, the [SOLVED] tag is great on a forum, where you can quickly scan for that topic that you know has a solution. However, on a mailing list it only serves to create confusion, separation of problem and solution, and exasperation on behalf of the searcher when viewing the issue on a search engine or in the archives. [/snip] I just wanted to point out that putting SOLVED on a mailing list subject line has been SOP since the dawn of mailing lists on ARPANet -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
On Nov 28, 2007 11:16 AM, Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] However, doing this defeats the purpose of a mailing list archive, and prompts unnecessary repetition of help requests for an issue that may have been discussed to death just five days prior. Again, the [SOLVED] tag is great on a forum, where you can quickly scan for that topic that you know has a solution. However, on a mailing list it only serves to create confusion, separation of problem and solution, and exasperation on behalf of the searcher when viewing the issue on a search engine or in the archives. [/snip] I just wanted to point out that putting SOLVED on a mailing list subject line has been SOP since the dawn of mailing lists on ARPANet Yeah, I know, and I certainly hope you realize I'm not shooting you down on that either. Even in the list itself it makes some sense, as we can see that the issue has been solved. However, due to the threading of the message it still separates it, so even a user who may have been away for a few days may not notice that the issue was resolved, and may respond to a defunct thread. -- Daniel P. Brown [office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272 [mobile] (570-) 766-8107 If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: RE: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette [SOLVED]
[snip] I have absolutely no objection to using it, but there's nothing de-facto standard about it. [/snip] OK -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: RE: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette [SOLVED]
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] I have absolutely no objection to using it, but there's nothing de-facto standard about it. [/snip] OK Jay, just out of curiosity - you also chose to start a new thread, rather than reply to the old one - why is that? If anything, that is the core issue we should be addressing. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: RE: RE: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette [SOLVED]
[snip] Jay, just out of curiosity - you also chose to start a new thread, rather than reply to the old one - why is that? If anything, that is the core issue we should be addressing. [/snip] It is my e-mail client. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette [SOLVED]
Jay Blanchard wrote: This has been the expected behavior (adding [SOLVED]) for a long time though it does not occur as often as it should. It has been in the NEWBIE GUIDE for a long time and has been a de-facto standard on IT or computer related mailing lists like this for years. I have been on mailing lists such as this since the early 90s - adding [SOLVED] to anything is by far a rare exception, not the rule. Current examples of project-lists where it has not been seen for at least a month: opensuse clamav spamassassin syslinux crm114 ntp rrdtool nut asterisk postfix lvs raid jfs I have absolutely no objection to using it, but there's nothing de-facto standard about it. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette
Makes sense to me... Count me in bastien Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:48:57 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette Good morning (/afternoon/evening) all; This is more or less an RFC-type email, hence the subject line. I would like to see your comments on this case, and maybe we can forge some sort of agreement or unofficial treaty or something. Oftentimes we see a user post a question to the list, with ongoing discussion back-and-forth on a troublesome issue, and when a solution is found, the subject line has an added [SOLVED] tag on it. While this makes sense in a forum style arena, where posts are binded statically in the same group, it defeats the purpose of mailing list archives such as Nabble and GMANE. A recent email from this morning illustrates the problem, as displayed presently at this page: http://www.nabble.com/PHP---General-f140.html The email with the subject The PHP License received commentary from both Jochem Maas and myself, and the OP (AmirBehzad Eslami) replied to the message, appending the [SOLVED] tag to the subject. This is not a serious issue in this particular matter, as it was a simple thank-you message out of politeness (which is greatly appreciated, Amir!). However, using just a single example should help to emphasize my point exponentially when you consider the frequency of occurrences we see following the [SOLVED]-appended route. On 12 September, 2007, Zbigniew Szalbot posted a message to the list about a segmentation fault in PHP 5.2.3. Over the next 24 hours-plus, exactly sixty comments passed back-and-forth on the thread. When a solution was found, it was posted in a separate email with the [SOLVED] tag added to the subject line, and two additional comments added to that (entirely new) thread. Why is this such a critical issue? Because if we hope not to have to answer the same questions over and over again, instructing people to properly STFW, then we should at least be contributing to proper archival and documentation of problems we've successfully solved. Using the aforementioned example, we check Google for the same problem: http://www.google.com/search?q=php+5.2.3+segmentation+fault+core+dumped Hooray! Someone else has had the exact same list of problems, and now I can simply go through all of the responses and it should (fingers crossed!) correct my issues as well. Message 58 59 getting close! sixty-one WHAT?!? No solution? Back to Google only to find that each result is exactly the same discussion, never including the final three emails. So the summary of my proposal is as follows: 1.) An issue has been identified with the list whereby improper archival will likely lead to repeat questions and unnecessary traffic to the list. 2.) I propose that we discontinue the act of subject modification to indicate a change in status of the issue (SOLVED, ALSO, ANOTHER PROBLEM, etc.) unless a completely different problem is reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. Comments welcomed! -- Daniel P. Brown [office] (570-) 587-7080 Ext. 272 [mobile] (570-) 766-8107 If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php _ Express yourself with free Messenger emoticons. Get them today! http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette [SOLVED]
On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] So the summary of my proposal is as follows: reached or question is asked. This will allow a step-by-step document (of sorts) to be created and made searchable on the web. [/snip] This has been the expected behavior (adding [SOLVED]) for a long time though it does not occur as often as it should. It has been in the NEWBIE GUIDE for a long time and has been a de-facto standard on IT or computer related mailing lists like this for years. It has been the de-facto standard for mail clients to prefix quoted lines with . Please fix your mail client or use a better one! -- Crayon -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP RFC # 0001 --- List Etiquette [SOLVED]
On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 09:24 +0800, Crayon Shin Chan wrote: This has been the expected behavior (adding [SOLVED]) for a long time though it does not occur as often as it should. It has been in the NEWBIE GUIDE for a long time and has been a de-facto standard on IT or computer related mailing lists like this for years. This is OK, as long as you don't go breaking threads or starting a new thread for something like Thanks! I think that the spirit of the post is not around the use of [SOLVED] or not, but around archive integrity and searchability, especially on the known long tedious dead-horse-whipping threads like Best IDE et al. It has been the de-facto standard for mail clients to prefix quoted lines with . Please fix your mail client or use a better one! This bring up another point. Clients like Novell Group(un)Wise (which we use at our institution (I don't because its evil), and many many others don't do a bunch of things that mail clients should, by law, have to do. Some M$ variants of clients don't even do threading at all! (Does gMail?) This IMHO is tantamount to spamming, as it destroys archival integrity and raises my blood pressure. I think that anyone that participates in any list should invest the 20 minutes it may take to download and install a decent mail client (there are plenty of excellent Free (as in Freedom) ones out there - just ask if you need help). For our own project mailing list(s), I have come up with similar rules - and working and living in a bandwidth starved country/continent, these rules have to be enforced quite strictly. The basic rule set can be found here: http://avoir.uwc.ac.za/avoir/index.php?module=wikiaction=wikilinkpagename=MailingListRules Obviously not all of them can be enforced strictly (like the disclaimer one) as some institutions (mine included) add huge HTML disclaimers to all mail on its way out. There are a few things that can be done to make lists more pleasant for everyone. I suggest we try and put a few in place so as to: 1. Primarily save bandwidth 2. Save time 3. Get more useful archives 4. Be able to say STFW with conviction, because we *know* its there! --Paul All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/portal/public/portal_services/disclaimer.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
