Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
Hello All, It looks like we only need to worry about Jouni Ahto and Alexander Aulbach now. Cornelia discussed the issue with Egon yesterday, and Egon now agrees that the current situation can be changed. The relevant message is attached. Cheers! -- Zak Greant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | MySQL Advocate | http://zak.fooassociates.com MySQL Tip: Display the option files read by the server % mysqld --help EFF: Protecting Freedoms on the New Frontier (http://eff.org) >From zak Wed Feb 12 11:40:45 2003 Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) by mysql.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1CIWEPd031720 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:32:14 +0100 Received: from [212.227.126.155] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18j1g1-Ji-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:32:09 +0100 Received: from [80.145.71.234] (helo=zwerg2000) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 18j1g1-0007pM-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:32:09 +0100 Message-ID: <004101c2d2c5$1993ebb0$e8ebfea9@zwerg2000> From: "Cornelia Boenigk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Egon Schmid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Zak Greant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:32:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600. X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600. Hi Zak > > The license change to the proposed license will also have the positive > > side effect, that our license would be compatible with the PHP Function > > Reference created by Zak and others, so it's contents will be opened up > > for inclusion in the manual (as said by Zak ;). > > Yep. My new editor at Sams has agreed to allow me to integrate my > material from the PHP Functions Essential Reference into the PHP > documentation. This should mean that when we work on the second > edition, we can do a full review of the major extensions of the > manual. Today I met with Egon and we were talking about the license issues. It turned out that Egon understood that checking out the sources/prototypes for commercial purposes was the point. Fortunately he owns your Function Reference so I could make clear what your suggestion was. We looked at the book, the examples you wrote, which are in many cases much more than the manual provides. And we agreed that it would be a valuable addition for the manual. In short: Egon agrees. And he told me to tell you his decision. Regards Conni -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
Please be so kind, and provide some tips on how to get some answes from those authors and editors listed, as they don't seem to even read the mails we sent out through the months. It seems that we only need to be concerned about: - Jouni Ahto - Alexander Aulbach Anyone tried contact either of these guys? Not this time. I have written several mails to Jouni in the past, but since some time he does not reply to anything. As far as I can see he is pretty disconnected from PHP right now... - Egon Schmid Apparently Egon has been feeling better lately. He might be reading this message right now. :) I received this from Wolfgang Drews (feb 2): | i've just called Egon. He told me, that he will answer you in the | nextdays. But remember, he is ill, and so it may be that he | forgets this again. If he did not answered you til middle of | the week, the best is to drop him a personal email | [EMAIL PROTECTED] should work. I have not dropped him a personal email... - Lars Torben Wilson I talked with Torben a few nights ago - he is willing to work on changing things. Very good. Goba -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 04:36:59PM -0700, Zak Greant wrote: ... Here is a brief update. > > Please be so kind, and provide some tips on how to get some answes from > > those authors and editors listed, as they don't seem to even read the > > mails we sent out through the months. > > It seems that we only need to be concerned about: > >- Jouni Ahto >- Alexander Aulbach ... Anyone tried contact either of these guys? >- Egon Schmid Apparently Egon has been feeling better lately. He might be reading this message right now. :) >- Lars Torben Wilson I talked with Torben a few nights ago - he is willing to work on changing things. Cheers! -- Zak Greant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | MySQL Advocate | http://zak.fooassociates.com MySQL Tip: InnoDB in 4.0.8 supports ON UPDATE foreign key constraints See http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/SEC449.html for more details Sincere Choice: Supporting a Fair Software Market (http://sincerechoice.org) -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sunday, February 2, 2003, at 03:13 AM, Zak Greant wrote: Heh. The content is already in docbook and the user notes are mostly useless already. ;) *wakes from a long slumber* Depends on coding style (the notes), doesn't it? I used to bitch about PHP2->3 migrations, now I have 3->4, and 4->5(?). Revenue for me, but... Seriously, of course it is better that we use what we have and just change to a better license. However, we do have options - this being one of them. :) For the PHP ER, I spent a *little* bit of time revising old docs. It was a bit sad, seeing how many simple protos were... to put it gently, not currently accurate. It (the PHP ER work) knocked me out of docs for a while. Somewhere around here I have information to get paid for it... I never sent it in. Heh. For proper tribute, multiple CVS dumps should allow for *all* of the applicable authors to be listed. It sounds a bit like the BSD license, but what is the cost of 2 (or even 12) pages of 6 point text in a thousand page manual? About nothing. Web costs? Even less. Give the chapter-slaves their credit, the editor folks their credit, the one brilliant example their creditetc. Or, switch from an old über-editor-batch to a "new" über-editor-batch... hmm. -Ronabop -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003, Zak Greant wrote: > On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 09:22:43PM +0100, Maxim Maletsky wrote: > ... > > > Heh. The content is already in docbook and the user notes are mostly > > > useless already. ;) > > > > I hope you meant they are outdated in some parts. Because, the user > > notes are very very usefull for tons of people. It 1) suggests a > > function's usage 2) extends the documentation (often they are bugs > > and/or what is getting into the official description). Though a cleanup > > would be good. > > Hello Goba and Maxim, > > Perhaps we don't need to Cc: group or rasmus on this variant of the > discussion? :) > > To be very precise, what I meant was many of the submitted notes are > wrong or partially wrong. I understand that some of the notes have > significant value. > > > What I would also like to see in user notes are the examples. Something > > that allows someone to choose whether it is a note or this adds an > > additional example of usage for the given function. > > > > Not sure if I render you the idea, but the point is to have a comments > > of the function and the code serving as a sample of usage separate and > > clearer, perhaps even highlighted. > > IIRC, there have been a few discussions to separate the notes into > categories - tip, example, correction, etc. I think that it was often > decided that it was best to just integrate the notes into the > documentation periodically. Agreed. Also, the PHP manual is not a code repository nor should it be ... especially one full of unmoderated not-so-optimal codes. It's difficult enough keeping all bogus notes out let alone moderate which code snippets belong. We don't want "official" PHP.net code snippets as the PHP community at large is around to fill this gap. Regards, Philip -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 09:22:43PM +0100, Maxim Maletsky wrote: ... > > Heh. The content is already in docbook and the user notes are mostly > > useless already. ;) > > I hope you meant they are outdated in some parts. Because, the user > notes are very very usefull for tons of people. It 1) suggests a > function's usage 2) extends the documentation (often they are bugs > and/or what is getting into the official description). Though a cleanup > would be good. Hello Goba and Maxim, Perhaps we don't need to Cc: group or rasmus on this variant of the discussion? :) To be very precise, what I meant was many of the submitted notes are wrong or partially wrong. I understand that some of the notes have significant value. > What I would also like to see in user notes are the examples. Something > that allows someone to choose whether it is a note or this adds an > additional example of usage for the given function. > > Not sure if I render you the idea, but the point is to have a comments > of the function and the code serving as a sample of usage separate and > clearer, perhaps even highlighted. IIRC, there have been a few discussions to separate the notes into categories - tip, example, correction, etc. I think that it was often decided that it was best to just integrate the notes into the documentation periodically. > Also, i think when rethinking the docs we should update the protos where > the return types are confusing. With move from PHP3 to PHP4 many > functions changed to return True and false instead of 1 and -1. This I > addressed in a message a few month ago: > > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=maxim+maletsky+phpdoc&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=20021109043833.EF1C.MAXIM%40php.net&rnum=18 > > the answer I got was: "we've got no time - go ahead". It's kind of a lot > of work here. can we approach it with some more clever method? Is that > important anyway? I'd like this to be fixed, though. > > +1 on all the rest > Cheers! -- Zak Greant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | MySQL Advocate | http://zak.fooassociates.com Developing Dynamic Web Applications with MySQL and PHP MySQL Training: Nuernburg, June 02-06, 2003 Visit http://mysql.com/training for more information Support Global Human Rights - Amnesty International (http://amnesty.org) -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 21:33:01 +0100 Gabor Hojtsy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What I would also like to see in user notes are the examples. Something > > that allows someone to choose whether it is a note or this adds an > > additional example of usage for the given function. > > > > Not sure if I render you the idea, but the point is to have a comments > > of the function and the code serving as a sample of usage separate and > > clearer, perhaps even highlighted. > > Huh, I think, I cannot understand what is your point. Would you like to > provide one selection for user note additions that it is note or example? Well, I just notice that there are two types of the user notes under the docs: 1. note on the function (verbal description of something specific) 2. example of usage (PHP code) the second one, is the code that perhaps wasn't included in our documentation (because we normally choose generic examples of usage or because we didn't explain it well) or simply a contribution of short code by someone. Wouldn't it be somewhat logical separating them? Why not allow users to post the sample code creating a series of user contributed samples? As you know, when you get onto something new (which is why you read the docs) a sample code usually talks for itself. Just look at the user notes for RegEx-related functions - people there fight what parses an email better and so on. Not sure how this can be organized, maybe with a section right below the documented function or by marking the notes separately or a whole another page? Point is to add more code samples to functions so people get started faster. This would be helpful and original, though, this wouldn't add us too much more work as almost most of the notes get some code in it anyway, it is only not organized. > > Also, i think when rethinking the docs we should update the protos where > > the return types are confusing. With move from PHP3 to PHP4 many > > functions changed to return True and false instead of 1 and -1. This I > > addressed in a message a few month ago: > > > > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=maxim+maletsky+phpdoc&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=20021109043833.EF1C.MAXIM%40php.net&rnum=18 > > > > the answer I got was: "we've got no time - go ahead". It's kind of a lot > > of work here. can we approach it with some more clever method? Is that > > important anyway? I'd like this to be fixed, though. > > I have heard some rumors about someone creating a proto check script to > check whether the protos in phpdoc reflect the current protos of > functions in the php source. Take in account undocumented new > parameters, etc. too... I don't think that anybody can get on this to do > it manually in any reasonable time... Would be nice to investigate on this deeper and see whether we can do something about it. I could go ahead to write a similar script myself. -- Maxim Maletsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
What I would also like to see in user notes are the examples. Something that allows someone to choose whether it is a note or this adds an additional example of usage for the given function. Not sure if I render you the idea, but the point is to have a comments of the function and the code serving as a sample of usage separate and clearer, perhaps even highlighted. Huh, I think, I cannot understand what is your point. Would you like to provide one selection for user note additions that it is note or example? Also, i think when rethinking the docs we should update the protos where the return types are confusing. With move from PHP3 to PHP4 many functions changed to return True and false instead of 1 and -1. This I addressed in a message a few month ago: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=maxim+maletsky+phpdoc&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=20021109043833.EF1C.MAXIM%40php.net&rnum=18 the answer I got was: "we've got no time - go ahead". It's kind of a lot of work here. can we approach it with some more clever method? Is that important anyway? I'd like this to be fixed, though. I have heard some rumors about someone creating a proto check script to check whether the protos in phpdoc reflect the current protos of functions in the php source. Take in account undocumented new parameters, etc. too... I don't think that anybody can get on this to do it manually in any reasonable time... Goba -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 03:13:46 -0700 Zak Greant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:43:33AM +0100, Gabor Hojtsy wrote: > ... > > > Hrm. Maybe we could use the work in the PHP Function Essential > > > Reference as the starting point for a new set of docs? At the publish > > > date, it covered a large portion of PHP. > > > > > > This would avoid the licensing issues. People who have already > > > contributed to the documentation could take their specific sections > > > and recommit them to the new docs - even though they contributed to a > > > GPL-licensed work, they still own copyright on their own work. > > > > Well, I think starting off with the new contents is not a good idea. > > First it will be a long time to complete the DocBook version, second thw > > user notes on pages will go useless, as they relate to the current > > documentation and not the book's text. So I think if we can use the > > contents the other way round, then it would be much better for our > > users, and for ourselfs too. > > Heh. The content is already in docbook and the user notes are mostly > useless already. ;) I hope you meant they are outdated in some parts. Because, the user notes are very very usefull for tons of people. It 1) suggests a function's usage 2) extends the documentation (often they are bugs and/or what is getting into the official description). Though a cleanup would be good. What I would also like to see in user notes are the examples. Something that allows someone to choose whether it is a note or this adds an additional example of usage for the given function. Not sure if I render you the idea, but the point is to have a comments of the function and the code serving as a sample of usage separate and clearer, perhaps even highlighted. Also, i think when rethinking the docs we should update the protos where the return types are confusing. With move from PHP3 to PHP4 many functions changed to return True and false instead of 1 and -1. This I addressed in a message a few month ago: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=maxim+maletsky+phpdoc&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=20021109043833.EF1C.MAXIM%40php.net&rnum=18 the answer I got was: "we've got no time - go ahead". It's kind of a lot of work here. can we approach it with some more clever method? Is that important anyway? I'd like this to be fixed, though. +1 on all the rest -- Maxim Maletsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
>>Well, I think starting off with the new contents is not a good idea. >>First it will be a long time to complete the DocBook version, second thw >>user notes on pages will go useless, as they relate to the current >>documentation and not the book's text. So I think if we can use the >>contents the other way round, then it would be much better for our >>users, and for ourselfs too. > > Heh. The content is already in docbook and the user notes are mostly > useless already. ;) Hum, you you think those are useless, but many guys think they are very cool. No doubt this is one of the driving force behing the popularity of the extended CHM version, which includes user notes... > Seriously, of course it is better that we use what we have and just > change to a better license. > > However, we do have options - this being one of them. :) Yep. Goba -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sun, Feb 02, 2003 at 10:43:33AM +0100, Gabor Hojtsy wrote: ... > > Hrm. Maybe we could use the work in the PHP Function Essential > > Reference as the starting point for a new set of docs? At the publish > > date, it covered a large portion of PHP. > > > > This would avoid the licensing issues. People who have already > > contributed to the documentation could take their specific sections > > and recommit them to the new docs - even though they contributed to a > > GPL-licensed work, they still own copyright on their own work. > > Well, I think starting off with the new contents is not a good idea. > First it will be a long time to complete the DocBook version, second thw > user notes on pages will go useless, as they relate to the current > documentation and not the book's text. So I think if we can use the > contents the other way round, then it would be much better for our > users, and for ourselfs too. Heh. The content is already in docbook and the user notes are mostly useless already. ;) Seriously, of course it is better that we use what we have and just change to a better license. However, we do have options - this being one of them. :) -- Zak Greant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | MySQL Advocate | http://zak.fooassociates.com MySQL Tip: Use your favorite editor to edit queries within the mysql client mysql> \e Sincere Choice: Supporting a Fair Software Market (http://sincerechoice.org) -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
Yep. My new editor at Sams has agreed to allow me to integrate my material from the PHP Functions Essential Reference into the PHP documentation. This should mean that when we work on the second edition, we can do a full review of the major extensions of the manual. Cool ;) Hrm. Maybe we could use the work in the PHP Function Essential Reference as the starting point for a new set of docs? At the publish date, it covered a large portion of PHP. This would avoid the licensing issues. People who have already contributed to the documentation could take their specific sections and recommit them to the new docs - even though they contributed to a GPL-licensed work, they still own copyright on their own work. Well, I think starting off with the new contents is not a good idea. First it will be a long time to complete the DocBook version, second thw user notes on pages will go useless, as they relate to the current documentation and not the book's text. So I think if we can use the contents the other way round, then it would be much better for our users, and for ourselfs too. Goba -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
> All the rest (Andrei, Jim, Stig and Rasmus) are active and AFAIK > support this. Yup, which I have stated many times to anybody who would care to listen. -Rasmus -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DOC] Re: PHP documentation authors / editors and license
On Sat, Feb 01, 2003 at 09:08:14PM +0100, Gabor Hojtsy wrote: ... > As the current legal thing goes, we need permission from the authors to > change the license, and to add new authors. > > _None_ of the authors or editors listed on the manual fontpage (the > legal copyright holders) contribute to the manual actively these days. > > I have summarized the problem quite a few times, and sent out the letter > to all authors, but have received _no_ answer from any of them. > Here is my last summary: > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=phpdoc&m=103071476614354&w=2 > > The license change to the proposed license will also have the positive > side effect, that our license would be compatible with the PHP Function > Reference created by Zak and others, so it's contents will be opened up > for inclusion in the manual (as said by Zak ;). Yep. My new editor at Sams has agreed to allow me to integrate my material from the PHP Functions Essential Reference into the PHP documentation. This should mean that when we work on the second edition, we can do a full review of the major extensions of the manual. > Please be so kind, and provide some tips on how to get some answes from > those authors and editors listed, as they don't seem to even read the > mails we sent out through the months. It seems that we only need to be concerned about: - Jouni Ahto - Alexander Aulbach I don't know either Jouni or Alexander. Anyone here keep in touch with them? - Egon Schmid Egon has been ill lately. Perhaps Georg, Hartmut or Conni can talk to him about this? - Lars Torben Wilson I bet that Torben is working hard with his band. He was doing a lot of touring the last time that I talked to him. But... he did support this. I can give him a call and see if he still feels this way. All the rest (Andrei, Jim, Stig and Rasmus) are active and AFAIK support this. Hrm. Maybe we could use the work in the PHP Function Essential Reference as the starting point for a new set of docs? At the publish date, it covered a large portion of PHP. This would avoid the licensing issues. People who have already contributed to the documentation could take their specific sections and recommit them to the new docs - even though they contributed to a GPL-licensed work, they still own copyright on their own work. > To keep those guys at the documentation team, it would be nice to give > them the recognition as manual authors and/or editors as appropriate. > There are many guys, who deserve this, including but not limited to > Hartmut, Friedhelm and Philip. Agreed! -- Zak Greant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | MySQL Advocate | http://zak.fooassociates.com MySQL Tip: Upgrading your servers to 4.0.8? Make sure to upgrade your clients to 4.0.8 as well! See http://mysql.com/doc/en/News-4.0.8.html GreenPeace: Raising Environmental Awareness (http://greenpeace.org) -- PHP Documentation Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
