RnRS
Dear List, RnRS for picoLisp will help immensely. Even in documentation, perfection is achieved with irreducibility. Regards, Alabhya
Re: Doubts about the benefits of WebSockets
How reliable are the statistics from w3schools? ( http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp). It is stated in this page http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_explorer.asp that IE6 users are about 0.1% of the total Internet users. When I first began web development I always tried to make my websites compatible with every browser. But now I'm getting tired of that (particularly, tired of IE) and now I just care about the latest versions of Chrome and FF. At least this is true for personal projects. I understand that clients might require their products to be fully compatible with every browser. 2014-07-15 14:41 GMT-07:00 : > > FWIW, in my case I fall back to polling every 10s in case websockets > > are not supported. However, as soon as IE9 penetration drops to an > > insignificant level I will stop with fallbacks. > > > > Make a user agent statistic from your users, or try to obtain data about > your target audience. > Rumour is, like half of Asia is still running on pirated WinXP using old > versions of IE (even IE6), so its surely good to have fallbacks around. > Of course, this is probably insignificant, but still interesting how > stubborn this old stuff sticks around. A point for trying to make software > well from the start, you never know how long it will haunt you or others > after release... > > Mobile support of websockets in the current client versions seems to be > pretty good: http://caniuse.com/websockets > Question is what version the user-base actually is using... > > --- > Just some random sources for my statements, not exactly well researched > stuff: > > > http://www.techinasia.com/windows-xp-now-dead-but-200-million-machines-in-china-still-using-it/ > > > http://www.troyhunt.com/2010/08/aye-pirates-be-reason-ie6-just-wont-die.html > > > -- > UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe >
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Hello marmorine :-) You are now subscribed looking forward to "first contact"! :) -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Doubts about the benefits of WebSockets
> FWIW, in my case I fall back to polling every 10s in case websockets > are not supported. However, as soon as IE9 penetration drops to an > insignificant level I will stop with fallbacks. > Make a user agent statistic from your users, or try to obtain data about your target audience. Rumour is, like half of Asia is still running on pirated WinXP using old versions of IE (even IE6), so its surely good to have fallbacks around. Of course, this is probably insignificant, but still interesting how stubborn this old stuff sticks around. A point for trying to make software well from the start, you never know how long it will haunt you or others after release... Mobile support of websockets in the current client versions seems to be pretty good: http://caniuse.com/websockets Question is what version the user-base actually is using... --- Just some random sources for my statements, not exactly well researched stuff: http://www.techinasia.com/windows-xp-now-dead-but-200-million-machines-in-china-still-using-it/ http://www.troyhunt.com/2010/08/aye-pirates-be-reason-ie6-just-wont-die.html -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Doubts about the benefits of WebSockets
FWIW, in my case I fall back to polling every 10s in case websockets are not supported. However, as soon as IE9 penetration drops to an insignificant level I will stop with fallbacks. On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 7:11 PM, wrote: > Seems like we have a similar goal, Amaury! Cool :) > >> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 03:52:42AM -0700, Amaury Hernández Águila wrote: >>> Yeah that would be nice. So, isn't that a good reason to have websockets >>> in >>> PocoLisp? >> >> I would not say so. In a video game you have so much continuous >> communication going on (most notably the stream of image frames), that >> you don't need an extra channel. >> -- >> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe >> > > Online games don't work by feeding single frames to clients. There are now > a few companies trying to get this alive - like video streaming for games > - but this not working fluently as the amount of data to transfer when > rendering images on the server is just too big to have a reasonable > latency for real-time-games (in opposite to turn based games). > > The continuous communication in a online game is chat and game logic > messages - user input going up to the server, and results of that inputs > together with results of behaviour from other agents going down to client
Re: Doubts about the benefits of WebSockets
Seems like we have a similar goal, Amaury! Cool :)
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 03:52:42AM -0700, Amaury Hernández Ãguila wrote:
>> Yeah that would be nice. So, isn't that a good reason to have websockets
>> in
>> PocoLisp?
>
> I would not say so. In a video game you have so much continuous
> communication going on (most notably the stream of image frames), that
> you don't need an extra channel.
> --
> UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
>
Online games don't work by feeding single frames to clients. There are now
a few companies trying to get this alive - like video streaming for games
- but this not working fluently as the amount of data to transfer when
rendering images on the server is just too big to have a reasonable
latency for real-time-games (in opposite to turn based games).
The continuous communication in a online game is chat and game logic
messages - user input going up to the server, and results of that inputs
together with results of behaviour from other agents going down to client.
There performance is essential, as the reaction time (time from input to
result) for one client is not determined by the connection of the
particular client, but determined by the worst connection (highest
latency) of all the players in the same session/environment.
-- non essential game dev stuff ---
There are numerous ways to solve this, mostly boiling down to predict
agents moves on every client (and server if you want to prevent cheating)
based on past agent behaviour ("Y started moving to the right, so it is
probably at position X by now"), and correcting that if the actual actions
differ from the predicted model (e.g. player position gets forcibly reset
to correct position, such corrections are experienced as "Lag").
Still, the basic statement that the worst client connection in an online
game influences the user experience for all users participating in the
same session holds true. This is not a problem for all games, as not all
have game mechanics involving a lot of players in the same area.
-- end of non essential game dev stuff ---
Point is, it makes sense to optimize such things for certain cases. This
also works the opposite, so one shouldn't use such optimization tools for
everything.
When different users have different limitations, it is not the right
answer to limit all users to the most restricted limitations. That turns
into artificial quality minimization.
I believe this is what is wrong with current web development, and a
problem, this the "one size fits all"-approach is sometimes just stupid,
see the rise of the "responsive design client frameworks" for websites.
User agents usually inform the server about their identity, so the server
knows you are connecting with w3m text browser, so the server should just
not attempt to make you build a websocket connection! It could even stop
sending you images, and instead server you with descriptions or start
sending them as ASCII art instead, that would save bandwidth, too.
One has just to be clear that developer time isn't optimized here.
But user experience wise it might be worthwhile. The line is blurring here
into premature optimization, but being able to scale and even work over a
bad mobile internet connection could be a real advantage.
Also, saving information overhead is saving energy and so in the end its
at least a beneficial to the environment. :P
And soon, when smart phones are rolled out to entire Africa, it would be
really cool being able to interact with this guys with real bad
connections out in wild, too.
--
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