Re: First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
Hi everyone, Thanks Neal for including me! (For the people who don't know me, I work for Red Hat as the product owner in the GPU team, which has maintained (and some time ago deprecated) Xorg, as well as maitning other graphics APIs such as Wayland, OpenGL, Vulkan etc. I'm also a GNOME contributor in my free time and sometimes do Wayland advocacy in local communities.) I'll put my answers inline so we can keep things a bit structured here. On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > > Hey all, > > So unless you've been living under a rock for the past week, you might > have noticed a bunch of buzz about Fedora KDE proposing to drop the > X11 session with Plasma 6[1]. Those of you who were at Akademy last > year[2] or this year[3] knew that this was coming. For the rest of > you... 🤭 > > Over the past few days, I've gotten a deluge of use-cases and needs > that would be useful to sort through and figure out actions to move > forward on. Some of them, I've got ideas, others less so. Before deep-diving: thanks for writing this up! It's good to have some discussions going on each topic > The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has > had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their > issues moving into a Wayland world. > * > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/6KLDR4WM7PMJ7VJTP4LH2HA4RAMCR6UJ/ > * https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/g/devlist/c/-glHquy0b20/m/nSBa_ntOAAAJ > I don't have any particular suggestions here, though David Edmundson > mentioned in the Fedora KDE Matrix room the idea of creating a new > protocol to support their particular need of positioning and plumbing > it through to Qt so that wxQt can use it. Also, some dedicated > outreach might be a good idea to get them to be more amenable to the > Wayland world. In terms of general outreach to the KiCad project: I looked into it a while ago after a friend of mine pointed out that they thought it was a shame it didn't have Wayland support. Basically, the community had closed the issue for Wayland support as WONTFIX due to the belief that Wayland wouldn't fix their issues, so I tried to clear up some of the confusion: https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/7207#note_1356840266 . At the very least it _looks_ like things improved since then, but it still needs a bit of "massaging" to keep mindsets in a positive environment. At the very least, it seems like some of their features might be unblocked, and they reopened the issue as well. FWIW: I'm a contributor to GIMP as well, and I had to work through a similar mentality, where people have/had similar negative attitudes towards Wayland. The problem is that also for them, it takes patience and understanding the problems they face, as they fall into an "XY problem" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem): "I need to have global positioning" (which is a WONTFIX current for most Wayland developers) vs "I want to restore the positions of my toplevel windows" (which would be solved with the xdg-session-management protocol that's proposed upstream). > Session restore has come up a few times. It actually came up during > the initial discussion within the SIG too, and has come up again > during the proposal discussion in Fedora. > * https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/347#comment-856399 > * > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/D76KHIPEPS6N7N3QHX6KBVDQ4RF5NVYO/ > GNOME designed a protocol for their use, can we reuse this as an > initial way to solve this problem? What's stopping us from doing > something here? In case anyone's interested, Philip Withnall (who worked on this) made a blog post about it at https://tecnocode.co.uk/2023/08/07/guadec-2023/ , which also contains a link to the video & slides of his talk. > Barrier/Input-Leap has come up as well. Seamless keyboard and mouse > handoff across computers is in demand. > * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/6 > * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 > The necessary portal frontends have landed in xdg-desktop-portal and > so we're just missing the requisite backend in xdg-desktop-portal-kde. Just a quick note that Input Leap should be supported starting GNOME 45 (which will be shipped with Fedora 39) > Something that was a little surprising to find out is that kwin's > support for the number pad seems to be in less than ideal condition. > * > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/5VHB34MWX5UTJE3CLOINE6OBREQIX4RY/ > This doesn't seem huge to fix, but I don't know a lot about key maps... > > A rather dominating part of the discussion has been color management > (or the current lack thereof). > * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/12 > * https://discuss.kde.org/t/fedora-kde-40-plans-to-completely-drop-x11/5047 > * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/issues/11 > This one seems to have b
Re: First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 8:53 AM Niels De Graef wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Thanks Neal for including me! > Thanks for joining in the conversation! > (For the people who don't know me, I work for Red Hat as the product > owner in the GPU team, which has maintained (and some time ago > deprecated) Xorg, as well as maitning other graphics APIs such as > Wayland, OpenGL, Vulkan etc. I'm also a GNOME contributor in my free > time and sometimes do Wayland advocacy in local communities.) > > I'll put my answers inline so we can keep things a bit structured here. > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > Hey all, > > > > So unless you've been living under a rock for the past week, you might > > have noticed a bunch of buzz about Fedora KDE proposing to drop the > > X11 session with Plasma 6[1]. Those of you who were at Akademy last > > year[2] or this year[3] knew that this was coming. For the rest of > > you... 🤭 > > > > Over the past few days, I've gotten a deluge of use-cases and needs > > that would be useful to sort through and figure out actions to move > > forward on. Some of them, I've got ideas, others less so. > > Before deep-diving: thanks for writing this up! It's good to have some > discussions going on each topic > > > The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has > > had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their > > issues moving into a Wayland world. > > * > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/6KLDR4WM7PMJ7VJTP4LH2HA4RAMCR6UJ/ > > * > > https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/g/devlist/c/-glHquy0b20/m/nSBa_ntOAAAJ > > I don't have any particular suggestions here, though David Edmundson > > mentioned in the Fedora KDE Matrix room the idea of creating a new > > protocol to support their particular need of positioning and plumbing > > it through to Qt so that wxQt can use it. Also, some dedicated > > outreach might be a good idea to get them to be more amenable to the > > Wayland world. > > In terms of general outreach to the KiCad project: I looked into it a > while ago after a friend of mine pointed out that they thought it was > a shame it didn't have Wayland support. > > Basically, the community had closed the issue for Wayland support as > WONTFIX due to the belief that Wayland wouldn't fix their issues, so I > tried to clear up some of the confusion: > https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/7207#note_1356840266 . At > the very least it _looks_ like things improved since then, but it > still needs a bit of "massaging" to keep mindsets in a positive > environment. At the very least, it seems like some of their features > might be unblocked, and they reopened the issue as well. > > FWIW: I'm a contributor to GIMP as well, and I had to work through a > similar mentality, where people have/had similar negative attitudes > towards Wayland. The problem is that also for them, it takes patience > and understanding the problems they face, as they fall into an "XY > problem" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem): "I need to have > global positioning" (which is a WONTFIX current for most Wayland > developers) vs "I want to restore the positions of my toplevel > windows" (which would be solved with the xdg-session-management > protocol that's proposed upstream). > > > Session restore has come up a few times. It actually came up during > > the initial discussion within the SIG too, and has come up again > > during the proposal discussion in Fedora. > > * https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/347#comment-856399 > > * > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/D76KHIPEPS6N7N3QHX6KBVDQ4RF5NVYO/ > > GNOME designed a protocol for their use, can we reuse this as an > > initial way to solve this problem? What's stopping us from doing > > something here? > > In case anyone's interested, Philip Withnall (who worked on this) made > a blog post about it at > https://tecnocode.co.uk/2023/08/07/guadec-2023/ , which also contains > a link to the video & slides of his talk. > > > Barrier/Input-Leap has come up as well. Seamless keyboard and mouse > > handoff across computers is in demand. > > * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/6 > > * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 > > The necessary portal frontends have landed in xdg-desktop-portal and > > so we're just missing the requisite backend in xdg-desktop-portal-kde. > > Just a quick note that Input Leap should be supported starting GNOME > 45 (which will be shipped with Fedora 39) > FYI: A compatible version of Input Leap is also going to be shipped in Fedora 39's repositories. > > Something that was a little surprising to find out is that kwin's > > support for the number pad seems to be in less than ideal condition. > > * > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/5VHB34MWX5UTJE3CLOINE6OBREQIX4RY/ > > This d
Re: Include the names of fundraising donors into Plasma 6 somewhere
I agree that Paul that what's being proposed doesn't seem unprofessional and the funds raised here are necessary, not extra. But I think we can easily satisfy both parties: we'll have a link or button on Plasma Welcome's Donate page that lets you see prior donors who donated for this fundraiser, but that has to be deliberately clicked on to see them. Nate On 9/21/23 11:05, David Edmundson wrote: I would be strongly opposed to having it somewhere the user hasn't explicitly opened, like the first-run wizard. It's more important that we come across as a product that's on par with a commercial offering than raise the extra cash. Having a set of names appear when you click the donate button would be ok. David
