Re: First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 8:11 PM Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 8:53 AM Niels De Graef wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > Thanks Neal for including me! > > > > Thanks for joining in the conversation! > > > (For the people who don't know me, I work for Red Hat as the product > > owner in the GPU team, which has maintained (and some time ago > > deprecated) Xorg, as well as maitning other graphics APIs such as > > Wayland, OpenGL, Vulkan etc. I'm also a GNOME contributor in my free > > time and sometimes do Wayland advocacy in local communities.) > > > > I'll put my answers inline so we can keep things a bit structured here. > > > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > > > Hey all, > > > > > > So unless you've been living under a rock for the past week, you might > > > have noticed a bunch of buzz about Fedora KDE proposing to drop the > > > X11 session with Plasma 6[1]. Those of you who were at Akademy last > > > year[2] or this year[3] knew that this was coming. For the rest of > > > you... 來 > > > > > > Over the past few days, I've gotten a deluge of use-cases and needs > > > that would be useful to sort through and figure out actions to move > > > forward on. Some of them, I've got ideas, others less so. > > > > Before deep-diving: thanks for writing this up! It's good to have some > > discussions going on each topic > > > > > The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has > > > had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their > > > issues moving into a Wayland world. > > > * > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/6KLDR4WM7PMJ7VJTP4LH2HA4RAMCR6UJ/ > > > * > > > https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/g/devlist/c/-glHquy0b20/m/nSBa_ntOAAAJ > > > I don't have any particular suggestions here, though David Edmundson > > > mentioned in the Fedora KDE Matrix room the idea of creating a new > > > protocol to support their particular need of positioning and plumbing > > > it through to Qt so that wxQt can use it. Also, some dedicated > > > outreach might be a good idea to get them to be more amenable to the > > > Wayland world. > > > > In terms of general outreach to the KiCad project: I looked into it a > > while ago after a friend of mine pointed out that they thought it was > > a shame it didn't have Wayland support. > > > > Basically, the community had closed the issue for Wayland support as > > WONTFIX due to the belief that Wayland wouldn't fix their issues, so I > > tried to clear up some of the confusion: > > https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/7207#note_1356840266 . At > > the very least it _looks_ like things improved since then, but it > > still needs a bit of "massaging" to keep mindsets in a positive > > environment. At the very least, it seems like some of their features > > might be unblocked, and they reopened the issue as well. > > > > FWIW: I'm a contributor to GIMP as well, and I had to work through a > > similar mentality, where people have/had similar negative attitudes > > towards Wayland. The problem is that also for them, it takes patience > > and understanding the problems they face, as they fall into an "XY > > problem" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem): "I need to have > > global positioning" (which is a WONTFIX current for most Wayland > > developers) vs "I want to restore the positions of my toplevel > > windows" (which would be solved with the xdg-session-management > > protocol that's proposed upstream). > > > > > Session restore has come up a few times. It actually came up during > > > the initial discussion within the SIG too, and has come up again > > > during the proposal discussion in Fedora. > > > * https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/347#comment-856399 > > > * > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/D76KHIPEPS6N7N3QHX6KBVDQ4RF5NVYO/ > > > GNOME designed a protocol for their use, can we reuse this as an > > > initial way to solve this problem? What's stopping us from doing > > > something here? > > > > In case anyone's interested, Philip Withnall (who worked on this) made > > a blog post about it at > > https://tecnocode.co.uk/2023/08/07/guadec-2023/ , which also contains > > a link to the video & slides of his talk. > > > > > Barrier/Input-Leap has come up as well. Seamless keyboard and mouse > > > handoff across computers is in demand. > > > * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/6 > > > * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 > > > The necessary portal frontends have landed in xdg-desktop-portal and > > > so we're just missing the requisite backend in xdg-desktop-portal-kde. > > > > Just a quick note that Input Leap should be supported starting GNOME > > 45 (which will be shipped with Fedora 39) > > > > FYI: A compatible version of Input Leap is also going to be shipped in > Fedora 39's repositories. > > > > Something that was a
Re: First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
On Wed, Sep 20, 2023 at 8:53 AM Niels De Graef wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Thanks Neal for including me! > Thanks for joining in the conversation! > (For the people who don't know me, I work for Red Hat as the product > owner in the GPU team, which has maintained (and some time ago > deprecated) Xorg, as well as maitning other graphics APIs such as > Wayland, OpenGL, Vulkan etc. I'm also a GNOME contributor in my free > time and sometimes do Wayland advocacy in local communities.) > > I'll put my answers inline so we can keep things a bit structured here. > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > Hey all, > > > > So unless you've been living under a rock for the past week, you might > > have noticed a bunch of buzz about Fedora KDE proposing to drop the > > X11 session with Plasma 6[1]. Those of you who were at Akademy last > > year[2] or this year[3] knew that this was coming. For the rest of > > you... 來 > > > > Over the past few days, I've gotten a deluge of use-cases and needs > > that would be useful to sort through and figure out actions to move > > forward on. Some of them, I've got ideas, others less so. > > Before deep-diving: thanks for writing this up! It's good to have some > discussions going on each topic > > > The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has > > had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their > > issues moving into a Wayland world. > > * > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/6KLDR4WM7PMJ7VJTP4LH2HA4RAMCR6UJ/ > > * > > https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/g/devlist/c/-glHquy0b20/m/nSBa_ntOAAAJ > > I don't have any particular suggestions here, though David Edmundson > > mentioned in the Fedora KDE Matrix room the idea of creating a new > > protocol to support their particular need of positioning and plumbing > > it through to Qt so that wxQt can use it. Also, some dedicated > > outreach might be a good idea to get them to be more amenable to the > > Wayland world. > > In terms of general outreach to the KiCad project: I looked into it a > while ago after a friend of mine pointed out that they thought it was > a shame it didn't have Wayland support. > > Basically, the community had closed the issue for Wayland support as > WONTFIX due to the belief that Wayland wouldn't fix their issues, so I > tried to clear up some of the confusion: > https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/7207#note_1356840266 . At > the very least it _looks_ like things improved since then, but it > still needs a bit of "massaging" to keep mindsets in a positive > environment. At the very least, it seems like some of their features > might be unblocked, and they reopened the issue as well. > > FWIW: I'm a contributor to GIMP as well, and I had to work through a > similar mentality, where people have/had similar negative attitudes > towards Wayland. The problem is that also for them, it takes patience > and understanding the problems they face, as they fall into an "XY > problem" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem): "I need to have > global positioning" (which is a WONTFIX current for most Wayland > developers) vs "I want to restore the positions of my toplevel > windows" (which would be solved with the xdg-session-management > protocol that's proposed upstream). > > > Session restore has come up a few times. It actually came up during > > the initial discussion within the SIG too, and has come up again > > during the proposal discussion in Fedora. > > * https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/347#comment-856399 > > * > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/D76KHIPEPS6N7N3QHX6KBVDQ4RF5NVYO/ > > GNOME designed a protocol for their use, can we reuse this as an > > initial way to solve this problem? What's stopping us from doing > > something here? > > In case anyone's interested, Philip Withnall (who worked on this) made > a blog post about it at > https://tecnocode.co.uk/2023/08/07/guadec-2023/ , which also contains > a link to the video & slides of his talk. > > > Barrier/Input-Leap has come up as well. Seamless keyboard and mouse > > handoff across computers is in demand. > > * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/6 > > * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 > > The necessary portal frontends have landed in xdg-desktop-portal and > > so we're just missing the requisite backend in xdg-desktop-portal-kde. > > Just a quick note that Input Leap should be supported starting GNOME > 45 (which will be shipped with Fedora 39) > FYI: A compatible version of Input Leap is also going to be shipped in Fedora 39's repositories. > > Something that was a little surprising to find out is that kwin's > > support for the number pad seems to be in less than ideal condition. > > * > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/5VHB34MWX5UTJE3CLOINE6OBREQIX4RY/ > > This
Re: First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
Hi everyone, Thanks Neal for including me! (For the people who don't know me, I work for Red Hat as the product owner in the GPU team, which has maintained (and some time ago deprecated) Xorg, as well as maitning other graphics APIs such as Wayland, OpenGL, Vulkan etc. I'm also a GNOME contributor in my free time and sometimes do Wayland advocacy in local communities.) I'll put my answers inline so we can keep things a bit structured here. On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 6:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > > Hey all, > > So unless you've been living under a rock for the past week, you might > have noticed a bunch of buzz about Fedora KDE proposing to drop the > X11 session with Plasma 6[1]. Those of you who were at Akademy last > year[2] or this year[3] knew that this was coming. For the rest of > you... 來 > > Over the past few days, I've gotten a deluge of use-cases and needs > that would be useful to sort through and figure out actions to move > forward on. Some of them, I've got ideas, others less so. Before deep-diving: thanks for writing this up! It's good to have some discussions going on each topic > The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has > had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their > issues moving into a Wayland world. > * > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/6KLDR4WM7PMJ7VJTP4LH2HA4RAMCR6UJ/ > * https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/g/devlist/c/-glHquy0b20/m/nSBa_ntOAAAJ > I don't have any particular suggestions here, though David Edmundson > mentioned in the Fedora KDE Matrix room the idea of creating a new > protocol to support their particular need of positioning and plumbing > it through to Qt so that wxQt can use it. Also, some dedicated > outreach might be a good idea to get them to be more amenable to the > Wayland world. In terms of general outreach to the KiCad project: I looked into it a while ago after a friend of mine pointed out that they thought it was a shame it didn't have Wayland support. Basically, the community had closed the issue for Wayland support as WONTFIX due to the belief that Wayland wouldn't fix their issues, so I tried to clear up some of the confusion: https://gitlab.com/kicad/code/kicad/-/issues/7207#note_1356840266 . At the very least it _looks_ like things improved since then, but it still needs a bit of "massaging" to keep mindsets in a positive environment. At the very least, it seems like some of their features might be unblocked, and they reopened the issue as well. FWIW: I'm a contributor to GIMP as well, and I had to work through a similar mentality, where people have/had similar negative attitudes towards Wayland. The problem is that also for them, it takes patience and understanding the problems they face, as they fall into an "XY problem" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem): "I need to have global positioning" (which is a WONTFIX current for most Wayland developers) vs "I want to restore the positions of my toplevel windows" (which would be solved with the xdg-session-management protocol that's proposed upstream). > Session restore has come up a few times. It actually came up during > the initial discussion within the SIG too, and has come up again > during the proposal discussion in Fedora. > * https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/347#comment-856399 > * > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/D76KHIPEPS6N7N3QHX6KBVDQ4RF5NVYO/ > GNOME designed a protocol for their use, can we reuse this as an > initial way to solve this problem? What's stopping us from doing > something here? In case anyone's interested, Philip Withnall (who worked on this) made a blog post about it at https://tecnocode.co.uk/2023/08/07/guadec-2023/ , which also contains a link to the video & slides of his talk. > Barrier/Input-Leap has come up as well. Seamless keyboard and mouse > handoff across computers is in demand. > * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/6 > * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 > The necessary portal frontends have landed in xdg-desktop-portal and > so we're just missing the requisite backend in xdg-desktop-portal-kde. Just a quick note that Input Leap should be supported starting GNOME 45 (which will be shipped with Fedora 39) > Something that was a little surprising to find out is that kwin's > support for the number pad seems to be in less than ideal condition. > * > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/5VHB34MWX5UTJE3CLOINE6OBREQIX4RY/ > This doesn't seem huge to fix, but I don't know a lot about key maps... > > A rather dominating part of the discussion has been color management > (or the current lack thereof). > * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/12 > * https://discuss.kde.org/t/fedora-kde-40-plans-to-completely-drop-x11/5047 > * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/issues/11 > This one seems to have
Re: First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 8:42 AM David Edmundson wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 5:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > me of them, I've got ideas, others less so. > > > > The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has > > had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their > > issues moving into a Wayland world. > > Given I'm quoted, I said we shouldn't rush clients to not be on Xwayland. > These are just Kicad's known issues, it'll be longer to fix all the > issues that come up after they're ported. > That's what Xwayland is for, and we've put a lot of effort into it. > They seem to be under the impression that KiCad can't run effectively under XWayland either and refuse to support it because of that. I'm quite fine with convincing them to be comfortable with XWayland too. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
Re: First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 5:45 AM Neal Gompa wrote: me of them, I've got ideas, others less so. > > The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has > had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their > issues moving into a Wayland world. Given I'm quoted, I said we shouldn't rush clients to not be on Xwayland. These are just Kicad's known issues, it'll be longer to fix all the issues that come up after they're ported. That's what Xwayland is for, and we've put a lot of effort into it. David
First round of feedback from Fedora 40 KDE Plasma 6 (Wayland-only) discussion
Hey all, So unless you've been living under a rock for the past week, you might have noticed a bunch of buzz about Fedora KDE proposing to drop the X11 session with Plasma 6[1]. Those of you who were at Akademy last year[2] or this year[3] knew that this was coming. For the rest of you... 來 Over the past few days, I've gotten a deluge of use-cases and needs that would be useful to sort through and figure out actions to move forward on. Some of them, I've got ideas, others less so. The first thing that came up was that KiCad seems to need help and has had a bad experience interfacing with some folks over resolving their issues moving into a Wayland world. * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/6KLDR4WM7PMJ7VJTP4LH2HA4RAMCR6UJ/ * https://groups.google.com/a/kicad.org/g/devlist/c/-glHquy0b20/m/nSBa_ntOAAAJ I don't have any particular suggestions here, though David Edmundson mentioned in the Fedora KDE Matrix room the idea of creating a new protocol to support their particular need of positioning and plumbing it through to Qt so that wxQt can use it. Also, some dedicated outreach might be a good idea to get them to be more amenable to the Wayland world. Session restore has come up a few times. It actually came up during the initial discussion within the SIG too, and has come up again during the proposal discussion in Fedora. * https://pagure.io/fedora-kde/SIG/issue/347#comment-856399 * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/D76KHIPEPS6N7N3QHX6KBVDQ4RF5NVYO/ GNOME designed a protocol for their use, can we reuse this as an initial way to solve this problem? What's stopping us from doing something here? Barrier/Input-Leap has come up as well. Seamless keyboard and mouse handoff across computers is in demand. * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/6 * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/12 The necessary portal frontends have landed in xdg-desktop-portal and so we're just missing the requisite backend in xdg-desktop-portal-kde. Something that was a little surprising to find out is that kwin's support for the number pad seems to be in less than ideal condition. * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/5VHB34MWX5UTJE3CLOINE6OBREQIX4RY/ This doesn't seem huge to fix, but I don't know a lot about key maps... A rather dominating part of the discussion has been color management (or the current lack thereof). * https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/89794/12 * https://discuss.kde.org/t/fedora-kde-40-plans-to-completely-drop-x11/5047 * https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/issues/11 This one seems to have been dragging on upstream in wayland-protocols for years now. Could we consider shipping the draft as a kde namespaced protocol (similar to what the Chrome OS folks did for aura-shell) and migrating to the finalized version later? (As a sidebar, I'm extremely disappointed in how poorly wayland-protocols governance is going right now. I count seven wayland-protocols proposed by folks I know are from KDE that are in varying states of being stuck, with all but three 6+ months old and in varying levels of decay. This is seriously hampering the development of Plasma Wayland from my point of view. And it's not just protocols from KDE that benefit KDE. Even ones from GNOME developers that we want are in similar ruts.) The lack of functioning support for host-guest clipboard copy-paste in Plasma Wayland with SPICE was also brought up as a problem. Not just for regular virtualization use, but also because it hampers testing workflows. * https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/message/AERH56JOMVKMNJA6MDKCFFC7DKGIRV53/ * https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2016563 * https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/spice/linux/vd_agent/-/issues/26 I am not sure what should be done here, but it clearly kind of sucks to have this problem. It's not currently on our list of Plasma Wayland "Showstoppers", maybe it should be listed there? Semi-related but not necessarily in the land of KDE, I got feedback on the Fediverse about the lack of a method for pre-authorizing applications to access portals means that certain classes of applications are functionally impossible to use in a Wayland environment. The example I was given was Veyon, which allows teachers to control school computer labs and monitor them while they're in use. This is a much more interesting variation of the automatic headless remote integration case for IT support systems software. * https://mastodon.tedomum.net/@lebout2canap/111074670912414830 * https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/issues/1105 This is probably a solution that needs to be handled at the xdg-desktop-portal level, but I wanted to highlight it here for everyone. So you might think that with this list that it's all bad news, but it's not! The good news is that most of these were already
