Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Martin Graesslin]

On Monday, November 9, 2015 11:38:42 PM CET kainz.a wrote:
> Yes different communication systems are one of the main problem. Different
> tasks are the second problem. When I read the VDG forum threads or the
> Telegram thread there was discussion about some stuff but less than 5% are
> bugfixing and for me reviewboard is for bugfixing, or I use it for this
> kind of stuff.

Just in case that this does not result in a misunderstanding on how we use the 
tools: reviewboard is for all changes. We especially use it for new features 
and not just for bug fixes.  Most often the review process for new code is way 
more important than for bug fixes (which might be obvious or trivial).

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[kainz.a]

as I start the discussion I have to say a few words

1. I understand you. I understand that big changes are a problem and
collaboration  is not that easy.

2. I start  this discussion to have in the end an better cooperation. I am
not happy with the process now cause I don't know how it works. an APP
programmer go to the forum and ask for some specific help e.g. need an app
icon. then we ask do you want some ui stuff too. no don't have the time now
maybe later.

the thing is that we are depanded to an programmer but the programmer isn't
related and when we make something by alone like the plasma theme or icons
we  get the message you have to ask first.

how ask us before it was pushed to master?

all I want to say was that there is an unbalance.

andreas k
Am 09.11.2015 11:27 schrieb "Marco Martin" :

> On Monday 09 November 2015, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> > Hello folks, this afternoon my time, a discussion started in #plasma
> > with some rather upset designers, who said that they felt they are
> > treated by the Plasma devels as children.
>
> I'm sorry if i sounded like that, wasn't the intention :/
> what i would like is a good sane discussion of back and forth in which one
> learns from the other :)
>
> (edit, forgot the cwg CC in the previous one)
> --
> Marco Martin
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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[David Edmundson]

>
> the thing is that we are depanded to an programmer but the programmer
> isn't related and when we make something by alone like the plasma theme or
> icons we  get the message you have to ask first.
>

Yes. All of us ask permission for all changes we make. You've seen us do
that.
You can comment on our reviews too; any visual change normally has a
screenshot you can comment on.

Asking a different question: If in 12 months someone else redoes all the
icons you did and you're not around, how would you want us to handle it?

David


> how ask us before it was pushed to master?
>
> all I want to say was that there is an unbalance.
>
> andreas k
> Am 09.11.2015 11:27 schrieb "Marco Martin" :
>
>> On Monday 09 November 2015, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
>> > Hello folks, this afternoon my time, a discussion started in #plasma
>> > with some rather upset designers, who said that they felt they are
>> > treated by the Plasma devels as children.
>>
>> I'm sorry if i sounded like that, wasn't the intention :/
>> what i would like is a good sane discussion of back and forth in which one
>> learns from the other :)
>>
>> (edit, forgot the cwg CC in the previous one)
>> --
>> Marco Martin
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>
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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi,

On Monday, November 09, 2015 01:10:41 AM Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> Hello folks, this afternoon my time, a discussion started in #plasma
> with some rather upset designers, who said that they felt they are
> treated by the Plasma devels as children.
> 
> I waded into that discussion, and am reluctant to write to the list
> about it, but I think there are some issues here that we all should
> think about. So I guess it is worth the risk.
> 
> First, are all the designers on this list? If not, it's difficult to
> have a dialog. Please make sure that at least andreas_k and uriherrera
> (irc nicks) become part of this conversation. After all, they are
> Plasma devels.

That would be good, it fixes on side of one of the underlying issues. (My 3rd 
point about using different communication channels).

> I've read https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/125568/ and
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=355058, both of which seem
> directly relevant.
> 
> I see both sides of the this conversation feeling distressed and
> unheard, and perhaps disrespected. We've got to fix this.

We talked about this topic first thing during our weekly hangout today, here's 
the gist of that:

* The discussion and feedback around the new theme went a bit unfortunate, 
there was absolutely no intention to make anyone angry, dismiss personal 
efforts or anything like that. In those cases where it still happened, sincere 
apologies, and the hope that it doesn't leave any hard feeling.

* Part of this is normal friction in high-profile work. The Plasma theme is 
very visible, and many people have opinions. There is a lot of work going on, 
and the high rate of change (which in itself is really not bad!) means that 
these frictions can get worse with larger bodies of work, and larger reworks. 
Incremental changes instead of bigger, all-or-nothing changes tend to help 
here, as they make it easier to iron out the more technical shortcomings 
before it gets shipped.

* We're currently not using the same communication channels, while "code-
people" (for lack of a better word) usually prefer IRC and mailinglist, these 
media are sometimes alien to "pixel-people", here we have work to do, we need 
to establish better communication channels between the groups so that input 
flows both ways in an earlier stage -- this is usually a very effective means 
to prevent communication mishaps later on. So what's a good place for code-
people to talk more with pixel-people, an the other way round?

* The last point about reviews and revisions is very well put by Eike already, 
let me reiterate here:

(b) For non-VDG developers, regressions from theme changes are just
bugs like any other bug. Enumerating issues like that doesn't
mean a new theme doesn't go in, it just means they're bugs to be
fixed. Instead of feeling criticized, my recommendation to the
VDG is that they see feedback from non-VDG developers as a
resource: The coders on the theme know a lot about how the code
works, which is the canvas you're trying to design to. The coders
can help you succeed in your mission.

> When I asked both Andreas and Uri about other developers in the VDG,
> they said "only Andrew is a dev"! As I said in the conversation, I'm a
> developer, even though I don't code, nor do I design. We are all
> developers if we're working in the project. (I don't consider myself a
> Plasma devel, by the way.) We have to give ourselves the respect of
> calling ourselves developers, and give one another that respect as
> well.
> 
> All devels who contribute need developer accounts. If some of the
> designers don't have devel accounts yet, please can we get that done?

That should be easy, any active designer who doesn't have an account can 
request one and just put any of the Plasma maintainers as reference, we're 
happy to oblige.

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org
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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Martin Graesslin]

On Monday, November 9, 2015 11:38:42 PM CET kainz.a wrote:
> Yes different communication systems are one of the main problem. Different
> tasks are the second problem. When I read the VDG forum threads or the
> Telegram thread there was discussion about some stuff but less than 5% are
> bugfixing and for me reviewboard is for bugfixing, or I use it for this
> kind of stuff.

Just in case that this does not result in a misunderstanding on how we use the 
tools: reviewboard is for all changes. We especially use it for new features 
and not just for bug fixes.  Most often the review process for new code is way 
more important than for bug fixes (which might be obvious or trivial).

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[kainz.a]

Hi,

2015-11-09 22:52 GMT+01:00 David Edmundson :

> the thing is that we are depanded to an programmer but the programmer
>> isn't related and when we make something by alone like the plasma theme or
>> icons we  get the message you have to ask first.
>>
>
> Yes. All of us ask permission for all changes we make. You've seen us do
> that.
> You can comment on our reviews too; any visual change normally has a
> screenshot you can comment on.
>
> Asking a different question: If in 12 months someone else redoes all the
> icons you did and you're not around, how would you want us to handle it?
>

I ask Nuon from the oxygen icon set if I can make some stuff there and only
after the ok from Nuon I was starting to do some changes.

I start this discussion cause Uri was unhappy and for me it was the best
time to start discussion about the cooperation between the plasma theme and
the VDG. My main task is to find the best way to work together and I think
we can improve it.

Yes different communication systems are one of the main problem. Different
tasks are the second problem. When I read the VDG forum threads or the
Telegram thread there was discussion about some stuff but less than 5% are
bugfixing and for me reviewboard is for bugfixing, or I use it for this
kind of stuff.

The plasma theme change from uri was only one example also the HIG's for
Plasma Mobile was nearly the same. Thomas work on the HIG's together with
Alex, Heiko,  and as everything was discussed quite a long time Marco
wasn't involved and we had an communication issue. The good thing is that
Thomas and Marco knows as a long time and so I thing it was not that big
problem.

We now communicate via telegram we had there one generic VDG channel and
for the specific tasks one channel (plasma mobile shell, mobile app HIG,
...).

I don't want to separate between pixel and code guys. The problem is than
that an pixel topic was discussed first at the VDG and than AGAIN with the
code guys. That's not efficient. I can make an review request with an
screenshot where I wrote what in my mind should be done better and we can
discuss all together there. for bigger tasks we can have an telegram
channel and everybody how is involved should talk there.

As Valorie say: in the end we want to develop an better product and the
communication is one of the first step to get to an better product.
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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Marco Martin]

On Monday 09 November 2015, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> Hello folks, this afternoon my time, a discussion started in #plasma
> with some rather upset designers, who said that they felt they are
> treated by the Plasma devels as children.

I'm sorry if i sounded like that, wasn't the intention :/
what i would like is a good sane discussion of back and forth in which one 
learns from the other :)

-- 
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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Marco Martin]

On Monday 09 November 2015, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> Hello folks, this afternoon my time, a discussion started in #plasma
> with some rather upset designers, who said that they felt they are
> treated by the Plasma devels as children.

I'm sorry if i sounded like that, wasn't the intention :/
what i would like is a good sane discussion of back and forth in which one 
learns from the other :)

(edit, forgot the cwg CC in the previous one)
-- 
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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Monday 09 November 2015 01:10:41 Valorie Zimmerman wrote:

> First, are all the designers on this list? If not, it's difficult to
> have a dialog. Please make sure that at least andreas_k and uriherrera
> (irc nicks) become part of this conversation. After all, they are
> Plasma devels.

Just my 2 cents regarding the mailing list: I personally don't mind mailing 
lists, I think they are an effective means of communication.
That said, I have given up on reading through this list on a regular basis, 
for a simple reason: It is a really high-volume list, with dozens of emails on 
some days. The majority of those emails are not useful for non-programmers, 
because they talk about technical details we do not even understand.

There are still many emails in there which are important to us, but I simply 
don't have the time to plough through all the emails I don't understand just 
to find out which ones are relevant for me.

That's why I now focus only on review requests or bug reports where the VDG or 
usability team is explicitly added. I hope I catch most of the important stuff 
that way, but there are definitely important emails falling through the cracks 
and ending up unread in my plasma-devel folder (among 10.956 other unread 
emails at the time of this writing).
Many in the Plasma team may assume that we read all emails on this list while 
in fact we don't, which will add to communication problems.

Any ideas how we can fix this (and no, "please read everything on this list" 
is not an option, unless you grant us the gift of speed-reading or the 
manipulation of time)?

Cheers,
Thomas
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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Ivan Čukić]

Hi all,

Before I chime in: 'developer' is the term commonly used for
'programmers' - at least in the IT world. Other professions have other
meanings for the word like in civil engineering). And, even if we
start using the word to mean something else, nobody else will.

The account is for that reason named 'kde contributor account' and not
a 'kde developer account' [1]. The words 'developer' and 'contributor'
should be synonymous, but they are not used as such by the rest of the
world. So, it is not surprising that you got the answer that only Uri
is a devel.


As for the issue in question, I think that the best sentence that
explains the problem is David's:

> *something* will always be disliked - if you focus on the part someone
> dislikes. If you submit 10 changes and get 9 in, great! If you submit
> 10 and then go all or nothing, you'll get arguments.

The problem with big changes/patches (be it code or art) compared to
the smaller ones (especially if the work is not communicated enough):
- is that they require a lot of work
- there are more places that might warrant a discussion

Then you get a combined 'I spent a lot of time on this' with 'there
were so many complaints' and you get disheartened (with x^2 growth :)
). We all had it at some point in time, and learnt to do things more
transparently and in smaller steps (well, I haven't, but I'm a
masochist and like being slapped :) ).

There are people with different opinions. The project maintainer
always has the last word. And has the most difficult job of having to
say 'no' sometimes.


> treated by the Plasma devels as children.

After reading the bug report and the rev request, I'm surprised at
this statement. The fact that something gets rejected with a detailed
explanation (and even with offers to help) does not look to me like
talking down to someone.


> designers don't have devel accounts yet, please can we get that done?

Agreed. All VDG members should go to [1] and follow the procedure. I
guess that page needs updating to mention artist explicitly.


Cheers,
Ivan

[1] https://techbase.kde.org/Contribute/Get_a_Contributor_Account

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Re: Common purpose for the Plasma team, and VDG

[Eike Hein]

My thoughts on this are two-fold:

(a) Non-VDG devs generally shouldn't question VDG dev decisions in
detail and avoid push-back on small issues. The VDG is still a
relatively new institution and needs to be given the latitude
to try things, build up institutional knowledge (and learn how
to document it) and gain a bigger stake in the fate of the pro-
duct.

For the non-VDG devs this may at times feel uncomfortable
because it involves surrendering control to somewhere else, but
this loss of control is the only way to grow a more capable VDG
and bring about a new status quo where this division of labor
is the true default. Non-VDG devs like me are generally given a
lot of freedom to screw up and learn from our mistakes; the VDG
needs that too.

Some eyes will read the above and don't like it because it
firmly demarcating two camps instead of treating all communica-
tion as being between identical agents. The problem with the
everybody-is-just-a-dev model KDE has historically used though
is that it's never naturally lead to adopting processes that
address some of our weaknesses, like doing design review passes.
Setting up purpose-specific departments that within their man-
date work on organizing these things is how we hope to fix that,
and as long as joining those departments is simply a matter of
merit there's no inherent problem of fragmantation.

tl;dr If you're not part of the VDG, you should stay out of the
VDG's way. If you don't want to, become part of the VDG. At the
same time it's the VDG's responsibility to make sure they're
succeding and the quality of their work is high.

(b) For non-VDG developers, regressions from theme changes are just
bugs like any other bug. Enumerating issues like that doesn't
mean a new theme doesn't go in, it just means they're bugs to be
fixed. Instead of feeling criticized, my recommendation to the
VDG is that they see feedback from non-VDG developers as a
resource: The coders on the theme know a lot about how the code
works, which is the canvas you're trying to design to. The coders
can help you succeed in your mission.


Cheers,
Eike
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