Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Friday 10 April 2009 19:38:24 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > On Friday 10 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > Still that doesn't make it any easier to interpret say '3/4' in front of > > a > > ah and if all are completed, then you can just say "N" instead of "N/N" ... > > so to be ++ verbose, this would give us (where N = notification, P = job in > progress, C = job completed): > > Scenario Text > -- > 3 N 3 > 3 N, 2 P 3/5 > 3 N, 1 C, 1 P 4/5 > 1 C, 2 P 1/3 > 2 P 0/2 > 2 C 2 > 1 N 1C2 > > the text then become a "how many things are in here" with an extra note of > "how many of those things are completed" if there are some items that are > not completed yet. Ok, then I just misunderstood your earlier email on this topic. This might very well work. Jamboarder's suggestion of making it one number might be sufficient as well. I think I start with your 2 number suggestion, since that shows more information. When it turns out this is mainly confusing, while not adding much, it's easy enough to switch to Jamboarders 1 number suggestion. Real world usage will probably tell. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
Aaron J. Seigo wrote > ... > so to be ++ verbose, this would give us (where N = notification, P = job in > progress, C = job completed): > > ScenarioText > -- > 3 N3 > 3 N, 2 P3/5 > 3 N, 1 C, 1 P4/5 > 1 C, 2 P1/3 > 2 P0/2 > 2 C2 > 1 N 1C2 > > the text then become a "how many things are in here" with an extra note of > "how many of those things are completed" if there are some items that are not > completed yet. If the animation already communicates that jobs are in progress, perhaps it would be sufficient to simply show one number that is the total(N+C+P). This keeps the at-a-glance information communicated to the user relatively simple. It would arguably cover most use cases where user is primarily interested in how many "notifications" and are any of them still "doing something". For the more detailed information about how many and which jobs are in progress or complete, the user can click to see. Just a suggestion... Hope this helps, Andrew (Jamboarder) Lake ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Friday 10 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > Still that doesn't make it any easier to interpret say '3/4' in front of a ah and if all are completed, then you can just say "N" instead of "N/N" ... so to be ++ verbose, this would give us (where N = notification, P = job in progress, C = job completed): ScenarioText -- 3 N 3 3 N, 2 P3/5 3 N, 1 C, 1 P 4/5 1 C, 2 P1/3 2 P 0/2 2 C 2 1 N 1C 2 the text then become a "how many things are in here" with an extra note of "how many of those things are completed" if there are some items that are not completed yet. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Friday 10 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > Still that doesn't make it any easier to interpret say '3/4' in front of a > spinner. to me it says "there are four things here, three of which are completed" notifications can therefore be viewed as jobs that completed in zero time. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Friday 10 April 2009 18:58:53 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> On Friday 10 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote:
> > Well, the problem kind of is that the systray shows multiple things:
> > running jobs and notifications, which are distinctively different. Still
>
> are they?
>
> both are communicating system or application status to the user; both might
> offer interaction options to the user ("Chat", "Stop", etc); jobs may turn
> into notifications; notifications may turn into jobs ("So-and-so wants to
> send you a file. Do you accept?" as a notification which turns into a job)
> ...
>
> to the user it's all "stuff my computer is doing and trying to tell me
> about"
>
> i think that while they are very different programatically, humanistically
> they are actually very much the same sort of thing.
Yeah, maybe, hard to say. Now I'm already influenced by having worked on the
implementation before actually becoming a user of this. And indeed the
implementation is quite different, so that might have caused me to see both as
distinctively different.
I always find these kinds of usability questions on stuff I actually developed
on always quite difficult, since I don't look at it the same way as I do to
stuff that is developed by other people. But considering how often users call
'jobs' 'notifications' while talking about this topic, I suppose you're right.
Still that doesn't make it any easier to interpret say '3/4' in front of a
spinner. If jobs and notifications are the same for users, maybe we should
then just put one number in front of the icon. Or maybe even none at all: if
something happens that the user might want to be notified of, the popup should
just open anyway...
Regards,
Rob
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Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Friday 10 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote:
> Well, the problem kind of is that the systray shows multiple things:
> running jobs and notifications, which are distinctively different. Still
are they?
both are communicating system or application status to the user; both might
offer interaction options to the user ("Chat", "Stop", etc); jobs may turn
into notifications; notifications may turn into jobs ("So-and-so wants to send
you a file. Do you accept?" as a notification which turns into a job) ...
to the user it's all "stuff my computer is doing and trying to tell me about"
i think that while they are very different programatically, humanistically
they are actually very much the same sort of thing.
--
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43
KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
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Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Friday 10 April 2009 17:50:54 Marco Martin wrote: > On Friday 10 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > I've been doing some more thinking about this: what about splitting this > > up in 2 icons? One "i" icon with a number that shows the total amount of > > notifications, and the spinner with a number showing the total amount of > > running jobs. It takes up a little bit more space, but makes it much > > easier to see at a glance what is going on. > > Then both icons trigger showing the dialog, but when the notifications > > one is clicked, it hides the entire job group, and when the job one is > > clicked, it hides the notifications. Still one extender, but then > > filtering certain information. That also solves the problem of a crowded > > systray extender. I think it might make sense in that case that both > > icons toggle (they're either monochrome or color or something like that > > to distinguish whether or not they're on or off) > > > > What do you think of this idea? > > wouldn't it add complexity? > even if the two icons are very different, i wonder if it would become not > immediate to know what triggers what, for the principle of making the user > to less think about stuff as posssible when he wants to perform a certain > action Well, the problem kind of is that the systray shows multiple things: running jobs and notifications, which are distinctively different. Still the user most likely wants to be able to see if, and how many, notifications and jobs there are. If both are available, I think having 2 icons makes this clearer. The running jobs one is distinctively different because it's animated, implying some sort of activity (job). For me, 2 icons would be more obvious then 1 icon with 2 numbers. But then again, people differ, and brains work in mysterious ways. One icon that somehow clearly conveys what jobs and notifications there are would also be ok, but I just think that a spinner with 1 or 2 numbers doesn't convey it's message as clearly as possible. Trying it out will probably tell us. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Friday 10 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > On Tuesday 07 April 2009 03:04:32 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > On Monday 06 April 2009, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote: > > > On Monday 06 April 2009 08:01:16 pm Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > > > On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > > > > On Monday 06 April 2009 19:02:58 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > > > > > what about the busy widget we have? we could just use that, with > > > > > > a number in the middle of it showing how many jobs are currently > > > > > > being processed? > > > > > > > > > > That's a very good idea... but what if there are both notifications > > > > > and jobs present? > > > > > > > > how about: animate the spinner if there are jobs, show the number of > > > > jobs and notifications combined? > > > > > > What information are you trying to find out when you look at the > > > widget? Total number of jobs (progress bars), or the number of jobs > > > that have finished and are ready to be opened (notifications)? > > > > both, i think. > > > > > I think the idea of using animation to indicate a current job running > > > is a good idea. Is there an icon designed for this yet? At first I > > > thought of an animated Down arrow (a metaphor that is used throughout > > > KDE4 in download icons), but Aaron mentions a spinner that could work > > > too. > > > > bonus is that we already have the spinner and we've been using it around > > kde (plasma, gwenview, dolphin .. i keep seeing it in new places :P) > > > > > He also mentions using a number to indicate some state. I think the > > > only relevant information would be how many files are completed, but > > > that number by itself may (or may not) be confusing. I'm not sure if > > > some users will think of it as the total number of files instead of > > > completed, or if that is something that can easily be learned. What > > > about completed/total? Would that be too big compared to just using > > > completed or total? > > > > we could make room for it; but then we're back to "what does the total > > number include?" > > > > it could be either jobs only or jobs + notifications ... *thinks* > > > > in the case that there are 2 jobs downloading, one finished and a kopete > > chat update notification would it say: > > > > 2/3 > > 3/4 > > 2/4 > > > > to me, 3/4 makes the most sense. if there are no jobs running we could > > drop the first number and just show the total? > > > > or we could show no number and just the spinner unanimated in the case of > > only notifications. however, it would be nice to see that number grow if > > new notifications appear. > > I've been doing some more thinking about this: what about splitting this up > in 2 icons? One "i" icon with a number that shows the total amount of > notifications, and the spinner with a number showing the total amount of > running jobs. It takes up a little bit more space, but makes it much easier > to see at a glance what is going on. > Then both icons trigger showing the dialog, but when the notifications one > is clicked, it hides the entire job group, and when the job one is clicked, > it hides the notifications. Still one extender, but then filtering certain > information. That also solves the problem of a crowded systray extender. I > think it might make sense in that case that both icons toggle (they're > either monochrome or color or something like that to distinguish whether or > not they're on or off) > > What do you think of this idea? wouldn't it add complexity? even if the two icons are very different, i wonder if it would become not immediate to know what triggers what, for the principle of making the user to less think about stuff as posssible when he wants to perform a certain action > Regards, > Rob > > ___ > Plasma-devel mailing list > Plasma-devel@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Tuesday 07 April 2009 03:04:32 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > On Monday 06 April 2009, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote: > > On Monday 06 April 2009 08:01:16 pm Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > > On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > > > On Monday 06 April 2009 19:02:58 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > > > > what about the busy widget we have? we could just use that, with a > > > > > number in the middle of it showing how many jobs are currently > > > > > being processed? > > > > > > > > That's a very good idea... but what if there are both notifications > > > > and jobs present? > > > > > > how about: animate the spinner if there are jobs, show the number of > > > jobs and notifications combined? > > > > What information are you trying to find out when you look at the widget? > > Total number of jobs (progress bars), or the number of jobs that have > > finished and are ready to be opened (notifications)? > > both, i think. > > > I think the idea of using animation to indicate a current job running is > > a good idea. Is there an icon designed for this yet? At first I thought > > of an animated Down arrow (a metaphor that is used throughout KDE4 in > > download icons), but Aaron mentions a spinner that could work too. > > bonus is that we already have the spinner and we've been using it around > kde (plasma, gwenview, dolphin .. i keep seeing it in new places :P) > > > He also mentions using a number to indicate some state. I think the only > > relevant information would be how many files are completed, but that > > number by itself may (or may not) be confusing. I'm not sure if some > > users will think of it as the total number of files instead of completed, > > or if that is something that can easily be learned. What about > > completed/total? Would that be too big compared to just using completed > > or total? > > we could make room for it; but then we're back to "what does the total > number include?" > > it could be either jobs only or jobs + notifications ... *thinks* > > in the case that there are 2 jobs downloading, one finished and a kopete > chat update notification would it say: > > 2/3 > 3/4 > 2/4 > > to me, 3/4 makes the most sense. if there are no jobs running we could drop > the first number and just show the total? > > or we could show no number and just the spinner unanimated in the case of > only notifications. however, it would be nice to see that number grow if > new notifications appear. I've been doing some more thinking about this: what about splitting this up in 2 icons? One "i" icon with a number that shows the total amount of notifications, and the spinner with a number showing the total amount of running jobs. It takes up a little bit more space, but makes it much easier to see at a glance what is going on. Then both icons trigger showing the dialog, but when the notifications one is clicked, it hides the entire job group, and when the job one is clicked, it hides the notifications. Still one extender, but then filtering certain information. That also solves the problem of a crowded systray extender. I think it might make sense in that case that both icons toggle (they're either monochrome or color or something like that to distinguish whether or not they're on or off) What do you think of this idea? Regards, Rob ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On April 9, 2009 11:31:28 Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > On Thursday 09 April 2009 19:55:49 Chani wrote: > > how do you warn the user if they close their laptop lid? :) > > it does make sense for all other triggers, though. > > > > ...hmm, if the warning had a sound effect I might notice when closing my > > laptop. *most* of the time I also wait for it to finish suspend before > > putting it in my backpack, but it's so reliable now that I don't always > > check. > > O yeah, right, didn't think of the laptop case. (I don't got a laptop > myself) But for laptops, blocking suspend is even worse: you can suddenly > discover that your battery is empty, because the last time you closed the > lid the laptop didn't suspend because you had a job running. > One thing we could do is maybe have a sound when you have a job running and > close the lid: delay the suspend for half a minute or something, so the > user has the chance to open the lid again and wait for the job to end, or > just ignore it and have the job aborted. I'm not sure if this is a plasma > thing, I have no idea what actually takes care of suspending when you close > your laptop lid. it's a powerdevil thing, and it used to delay suspend by ten seconds anyways. I'm not sure what happened to that - maybe I turned it off - but I remember hal having issues with it. -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Thursday 09 April 2009 19:55:49 Chani wrote: > how do you warn the user if they close their laptop lid? :) > it does make sense for all other triggers, though. > > ...hmm, if the warning had a sound effect I might notice when closing my > laptop. *most* of the time I also wait for it to finish suspend before > putting it in my backpack, but it's so reliable now that I don't always > check. O yeah, right, didn't think of the laptop case. (I don't got a laptop myself) But for laptops, blocking suspend is even worse: you can suddenly discover that your battery is empty, because the last time you closed the lid the laptop didn't suspend because you had a job running. One thing we could do is maybe have a sound when you have a job running and close the lid: delay the suspend for half a minute or something, so the user has the chance to open the lid again and wait for the job to end, or just ignore it and have the job aborted. I'm not sure if this is a plasma thing, I have no idea what actually takes care of suspending when you close your laptop lid. Regards, Rob ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On April 9, 2009 09:08:38 Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > On Thursday 09 April 2009 17:48:20 dantti85-...@yahoo.com.br wrote: > > >Even if the icon gets some animation, it is still small and the event > > >"notification closed" is still the same, i.e. the signal remains the > > > same as the user might just notice the "it's gone" and not whereto. > > > There have been people stating that they thought the job was done > > > because the notification was closed. They e.g. pulled the cable or > > > shut-down the computer. > > > > I did that once :P > > Also i'm not sure this is already the case but if not i think > > it would be very important to suppress power sleep and maybe > > even login if a job is running. Not sure bad jobs would block > > a power down but imo the usability needs to be increased. > > well surpress doesn't seem like an excellent idea: a warning might be a > good idea though. Then the user understands that there are still jobs > running, but they can still decide: screw that job and just shut down. how do you warn the user if they close their laptop lid? :) it does make sense for all other triggers, though. ...hmm, if the warning had a sound effect I might notice when closing my laptop. *most* of the time I also wait for it to finish suspend before putting it in my backpack, but it's so reliable now that I don't always check. -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Thursday 09 April 2009 17:48:20 dantti85-...@yahoo.com.br wrote: > >Even if the icon gets some animation, it is still small and the event > >"notification closed" is still the same, i.e. the signal remains the same > > as the user might just notice the "it's gone" and not whereto. There have > > been people stating that they thought the job was done because the > > notification was closed. They e.g. pulled the cable or shut-down the > > computer. > > I did that once :P > Also i'm not sure this is already the case but if not i think > it would be very important to suppress power sleep and maybe > even login if a job is running. Not sure bad jobs would block > a power down but imo the usability needs to be increased. well surpress doesn't seem like an excellent idea: a warning might be a good idea though. Then the user understands that there are still jobs running, but they can still decide: screw that job and just shut down. > I really miss Persitent working, i had to change kpackagekit > to not use persistent so it could behave correcty. > Also as you can see in https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=184236 > the popup don't resize correctly and as the number of actions > seems to be ilimited this makes the buttons get out of the pop up. Well, as kopete demonstrates: persistent notifications are working. There's somebody else who has the same problem though. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177154 . Are you sure you have Timeout=0 and Persistent=true in you notifyrc? I agree the behavior is a bit confusing though, but that's a knotify problem: in plasma we just wait for knotify to kill a notification, we don't even know the timeout if there's one. I hope somebody looks into it. But still: it's possible to make it work :) The size of the buttons problem is indeed something we'll need to fix soon. > A suggestion would be to increase the timeout regarding the > number of actions, ie 10 secs for one, 15 for 2... as the more > actions the pop up has the more time the user needs to decide.. Timeout can be specified in the notifyrc file. Regards, Rob ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Thursday 09 April 2009 16:47:41 Sven Burmeister wrote: > Am Montag, 6. April 2009 16:30:21 schrieb Rob Scheepmaker: > > Hello, > > > > I wanted to discuss what I think should be improved in the plasma > > systemtray... not the spec, but the jobs/notifications. We discussed some > > of this already at tokamak, but there's still a lot to be done if we want > > this to be implemented for 4.3: > > Even if the icon gets some animation, it is still small and the event > "notification closed" is still the same, i.e. the signal remains the same > as the user might just notice the "it's gone" and not whereto. There have > been people stating that they thought the job was done because the > notification was closed. They e.g. pulled the cable or shut-down the > computer. As discussed in this threat, completed jobs will be turned in a notification widget (with which I also implied, showing it, if it isn't already showing), so you have some obvious notification when a job has finished. > To solve this, progress jobs should not be hidden by default. If the user > hides it and forgets about it afterwards, that's his fault. in trunk/, jobs aren't hidden by default, since we now have extendergroup and can show a total progressbar for all jobs, which takes up only little space. Still this is some major reworking of the systemtray so nothing is definate yet: some stuff just requires real life usage to make sensible decisions. The user can expand this group to see individual jobs if he likes. By default this group is collapsed, but it remembers it's state, so if you always want to see all details, that's possible. > Currently it is only possible to either hide all notification or show all > (clicking on the icon), which I think could be improved too, i.e. let the > user hide/collapse individual notifications. with the grouping not anymore. jobs are already grouped, and as discussed in this threat (I'd suggest you'd read it ;) ) we're planning to also group completed job notifications in a seperate group. Both can be expanded and collapsed to show sub items. Besides: each extender item allows itself to be collapsed/expanded by clicking it's icon (the app icon on the left) or double clicking the drag bar. > Further, the notifications cannot be detached (if one wants them to stay on > the desktop) if the desktop/panel is locked, which I think does not make > sense, because it is just annoying having to unlock/drag/re-lock just to > detach a notification. Well, we've talked about this a couple of times but there's no way around this that I see: locked means, besides not being able to add new applets, that your widgets won't more, or resize which is kind of the point of locking your desktop. This fundamentally clashes with being able to detach an extender which does all of those things: it creates a new applet, and very likely causes other applets to move or resize. If you've got a good idea though: I'm all ears. In the meantime, there is a workaround: not locking your widgets. :p Regards, Rob ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
>Even if the icon gets some animation, it is still small and the event >"notification closed" is still the same, i.e. the signal remains the same as >the user might just notice the "it's gone" and not whereto. There have been >people stating that they thought the job was done because the notification was >closed. They e.g. pulled the cable or shut-down the computer. I did that once :P Also i'm not sure this is already the case but if not i think it would be very important to suppress power sleep and maybe even login if a job is running. Not sure bad jobs would block a power down but imo the usability needs to be increased. I really miss Persitent working, i had to change kpackagekit to not use persistent so it could behave correcty. Also as you can see in https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=184236 the popup don't resize correctly and as the number of actions seems to be ilimited this makes the buttons get out of the pop up. A suggestion would be to increase the timeout regarding the number of actions, ie 10 secs for one, 15 for 2... as the more actions the pop up has the more time the user needs to decide.. Daniel. Veja quais são os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! +Buscados http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
Am Montag, 6. April 2009 16:30:21 schrieb Rob Scheepmaker: > Hello, > > I wanted to discuss what I think should be improved in the plasma > systemtray... not the spec, but the jobs/notifications. We discussed some > of this already at tokamak, but there's still a lot to be done if we want > this to be implemented for 4.3: Even if the icon gets some animation, it is still small and the event "notification closed" is still the same, i.e. the signal remains the same as the user might just notice the "it's gone" and not whereto. There have been people stating that they thought the job was done because the notification was closed. They e.g. pulled the cable or shut-down the computer. To solve this, progress jobs should not be hidden by default. If the user hides it and forgets about it afterwards, that's his fault. Currently it is only possible to either hide all notification or show all (clicking on the icon), which I think could be improved too, i.e. let the user hide/collapse individual notifications. Further, the notifications cannot be detached (if one wants them to stay on the desktop) if the desktop/panel is locked, which I think does not make sense, because it is just annoying having to unlock/drag/re-lock just to detach a notification. Sven ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Tuesday 07 April 2009 14:23:49 Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > Yeah, it contains notifications (both 'normal' and file completed), and > jobs, so indeed it may not be entirely optimal. However, both the in > progress jobs and the completed jobs belong to an ExtenderGroup. The thing > that might help is if it's more clear which item belong to which group. We > could have different theming for items belonging to a group, but what will > probably already help enough without further complicating the theming > process, is if I change the following: > > * The group widget is always above widgets that belong to it. > * items belonging to a group don't draw their borders (as if their > Appearance is set to NoBorders) > * maybe even set slightly bigger margins around the items belonging to a > group. I've committed a change that does the first two of these points. See this screen: http://imagebin.ca/view/EUThPsd.html clearer, but we might even need a tad more obvious grouping. I guess time will tell. Maybe having a different draghandle in theme for children of groups? Or the 3rd point: indentation. But I can imagine it not looking very good with certain themes. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Tuesday 07 April 2009 03:20:40 Celeste Lyn Paul wrote: > On Monday 06 April 2009 09:04:32 pm Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > On Monday 06 April 2009, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote: > > bonus is that we already have the spinner and we've been using it around > > kde (plasma, gwenview, dolphin .. i keep seeing it in new places :P) > > You mean the circular bubble animated thingy that looks like the Flash > loader animation? That the one :) > Ah hah, this is what I was asking about on IRC. So there are more than just > job notifications contained in this widget? > > If so, that makes "glancing" at the widget more difficult. Besides checking > to see if there are jobs in progress and how many jobs may be finished, you > have to do and extra detail check (requiring additional interaction) or > mental math (if you happen to remember how many files you were downloading) > to see if those are finished downloads or other types of messages you > missed. > > (If not, then no problem) Yeah, it contains notifications (both 'normal' and file completed), and jobs, so indeed it may not be entirely optimal. However, both the in progress jobs and the completed jobs belong to an ExtenderGroup. The thing that might help is if it's more clear which item belong to which group. We could have different theming for items belonging to a group, but what will probably already help enough without further complicating the theming process, is if I change the following: * The group widget is always above widgets that belong to it. * items belonging to a group don't draw their borders (as if their Appearance is set to NoBorders) * maybe even set slightly bigger margins around the items belonging to a group. In this scenario, if there are 2 running jobs, 3 completed jobs, and 1 kopete notification, and every group is expanded, there would still only be 2 horizontal borders (one between the kopete notification and the completed jobs group, and one between the completed jobs group and the running jobs group. Opinions? Regards, Rob ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Monday 06 April 2009 09:04:32 pm Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > On Monday 06 April 2009, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote: > > I think the idea of using animation to indicate a current job running is > > a good idea. Is there an icon designed for this yet? At first I thought > > of an animated Down arrow (a metaphor that is used throughout KDE4 in > > download icons), but Aaron mentions a spinner that could work too. > > bonus is that we already have the spinner and we've been using it around > kde (plasma, gwenview, dolphin .. i keep seeing it in new places :P) You mean the circular bubble animated thingy that looks like the Flash loader animation? > > He also mentions using a number to indicate some state. I think the only > > relevant information would be how many files are completed, but that > > number by itself may (or may not) be confusing. I'm not sure if some > > users will think of it as the total number of files instead of completed, > > or if that is something that can easily be learned. What about > > completed/total? Would that be too big compared to just using completed > > or total? > > we could make room for it; but then we're back to "what does the total > number include?" > > it could be either jobs only or jobs + notifications ... *thinks* > > in the case that there are 2 jobs downloading, one finished and a kopete > chat update notification would it say: Ah hah, this is what I was asking about on IRC. So there are more than just job notifications contained in this widget? If so, that makes "glancing" at the widget more difficult. Besides checking to see if there are jobs in progress and how many jobs may be finished, you have to do and extra detail check (requiring additional interaction) or mental math (if you happen to remember how many files you were downloading) to see if those are finished downloads or other types of messages you missed. (If not, then no problem) > 2/3 > 3/4 > 2/4 > > to me, 3/4 makes the most sense. if there are no jobs running we could drop > the first number and just show the total? Yes, if there are no jobs running then the only relevant information would be the total and so only showing that number makes sense. > or we could show no number and just the spinner unanimated in the case of > only notifications. however, it would be nice to see that number grow if > new notifications appear. Or that too. Turning off and on a number is something that can be changed easily (I think? I'm not a dev) so it would probably be easier to make that decision by testing it a few times to see what you expect: If the stopped animation is enough of an indicator, or if there is a comfort in seeing a number. -- Celeste Lyn Paul KDE Usability Project usability.kde.org ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Monday 06 April 2009, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote: > On Monday 06 April 2009 08:01:16 pm Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > > On Monday 06 April 2009 19:02:58 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > > > what about the busy widget we have? we could just use that, with a > > > > number in the middle of it showing how many jobs are currently being > > > > processed? > > > > > > That's a very good idea... but what if there are both notifications and > > > jobs present? > > > > how about: animate the spinner if there are jobs, show the number of jobs > > and notifications combined? > > What information are you trying to find out when you look at the widget? > Total number of jobs (progress bars), or the number of jobs that have > finished and are ready to be opened (notifications)? both, i think. > I think the idea of using animation to indicate a current job running is a > good idea. Is there an icon designed for this yet? At first I thought of an > animated Down arrow (a metaphor that is used throughout KDE4 in download > icons), but Aaron mentions a spinner that could work too. bonus is that we already have the spinner and we've been using it around kde (plasma, gwenview, dolphin .. i keep seeing it in new places :P) > He also mentions using a number to indicate some state. I think the only > relevant information would be how many files are completed, but that number > by itself may (or may not) be confusing. I'm not sure if some users will > think of it as the total number of files instead of completed, or if that > is something that can easily be learned. What about completed/total? Would > that be too big compared to just using completed or total? we could make room for it; but then we're back to "what does the total number include?" it could be either jobs only or jobs + notifications ... *thinks* in the case that there are 2 jobs downloading, one finished and a kopete chat update notification would it say: 2/3 3/4 2/4 to me, 3/4 makes the most sense. if there are no jobs running we could drop the first number and just show the total? or we could show no number and just the spinner unanimated in the case of only notifications. however, it would be nice to see that number grow if new notifications appear. seele? -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Monday 06 April 2009 08:01:16 pm Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > On Monday 06 April 2009 19:02:58 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > > what about the busy widget we have? we could just use that, with a > > > number in the middle of it showing how many jobs are currently being > > > processed? > > > > That's a very good idea... but what if there are both notifications and > > jobs present? > > how about: animate the spinner if there are jobs, show the number of jobs > and notifications combined? What information are you trying to find out when you look at the widget? Total number of jobs (progress bars), or the number of jobs that have finished and are ready to be opened (notifications)? At first glance I think there are two things you would want to know immediately: 1) are there any jobs running? 2) are any of my files completed? At that point, I don't think the widget needs to provide any more information than that, because the user can always click on it to get further details. I think the idea of using animation to indicate a current job running is a good idea. Is there an icon designed for this yet? At first I thought of an animated Down arrow (a metaphor that is used throughout KDE4 in download icons), but Aaron mentions a spinner that could work too. He also mentions using a number to indicate some state. I think the only relevant information would be how many files are completed, but that number by itself may (or may not) be confusing. I'm not sure if some users will think of it as the total number of files instead of completed, or if that is something that can easily be learned. What about completed/total? Would that be too big compared to just using completed or total? -- Celeste Lyn Paul KDE Usability Project usability.kde.org ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > On Monday 06 April 2009 19:02:58 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > > On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > > * job widget layout. I don't know about the rest of you, but I think > > > this could be improved. The widget takes up quite some space > > > vertically. I'm not sure how we can keep the widget compact while still > > > showing all the information (we'll need to add the ETA too). Any ideas? > > > > tooltips, "More info >>" link or just not care? :) > > hmm, more info link sounds good. And ETA not as part of that link but > always visible since that's usually the most interesting part I'd say. > > > > * job completed action. As discussed at Tokamak, we'll need to add an > > > extra action to the JobView (and a slot to KJob) interface to allow, > > > besides suspend, kill, and resume, an action that can be invoked after > > > the job is finished. Kio could use this to provide an 'open' action to > > > open the copied/moved file, or it's containing directory in case of > > > multiple files. It should probably also provide a way to set a message > > > for both this action, and the description of what has just finished. > > > > makes sense ... > > > > > * when a job is completed, replace the job widget with a > > > notificationwidget, showing the 'completed message' (hmm, we could just > > > use infoMessage for this, and let kio set a more sensible messages when > > > a job completes (like "finished copying 5 files from "), and > > > showing the finished job action. We could add those notifications to an > > > ExtenderGroup that contains the text "x completed jobs" and a "clear" > > > button that empties this group. Wait, I'll draft up a extremely > > > beautifull mockup and attach it. > > > Problem: it would be very nice if this would also work across reboots, > > > which isn't the case if the kjob handles this finished action. Most of > > > the time, this action will just open an application with a certain set > > > of arguments, so maybe we should just provide the name of an > > > application + command line arguments in a string. Then the systray > > > would just contain a firefox like completed jobs history, with open > > > buttons that still work after a reboot. > > > > yes.. that'd probably work and also probably be easier to allow for > > custom actions. > > Good... It still needs to be implemented of course. What about adding > setFinishedCommand(QString) and setFinishedCommandDescription(QString) to > the JobView interface and finishedCommand and finishedCommandDescription > signals to KJob? > KioJob still needs to fire those signals with sensible values of course. setFinishedCommand(const QString &command, const QString &description = QString())? > > > * An animated icon of some sort when jobs are running, instead of the > > > "i" icon. Discussed at tokamak, and makes it clearer when there are > > > actually jobs running. We should probably also show a tooltip when > > > hovering this icon. This icon still needs to be designed. > > > > what about the busy widget we have? we could just use that, with a number > > in the middle of it showing how many jobs are currently being processed? > > That's a very good idea... but what if there are both notifications and > jobs present? how about: animate the spinner if there are jobs, show the number of jobs and notifications combined? -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Monday 06 April 2009 19:02:58 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: > On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > > * job widget layout. I don't know about the rest of you, but I think this > > could be improved. The widget takes up quite some space vertically. I'm > > not sure how we can keep the widget compact while still showing all the > > information (we'll need to add the ETA too). Any ideas? > > tooltips, "More info >>" link or just not care? :) hmm, more info link sounds good. And ETA not as part of that link but always visible since that's usually the most interesting part I'd say. > > * job completed action. As discussed at Tokamak, we'll need to add an > > extra action to the JobView (and a slot to KJob) interface to allow, > > besides suspend, kill, and resume, an action that can be invoked after > > the job is finished. Kio could use this to provide an 'open' action to > > open the copied/moved file, or it's containing directory in case of > > multiple files. It should probably also provide a way to set a message > > for both this action, and the description of what has just finished. > > makes sense ... > > > * when a job is completed, replace the job widget with a > > notificationwidget, showing the 'completed message' (hmm, we could just > > use infoMessage for this, and let kio set a more sensible messages when a > > job completes (like "finished copying 5 files from "), and showing > > the finished job action. We could add those notifications to an > > ExtenderGroup that contains the text "x completed jobs" and a "clear" > > button that empties this group. Wait, I'll draft up a extremely > > beautifull mockup and attach it. > > Problem: it would be very nice if this would also work across reboots, > > which isn't the case if the kjob handles this finished action. Most of > > the time, this action will just open an application with a certain set of > > arguments, so maybe we should just provide the name of an application + > > command line arguments in a string. Then the systray would just contain a > > firefox like completed jobs history, with open buttons that still work > > after a reboot. > > yes.. that'd probably work and also probably be easier to allow for custom > actions. Good... It still needs to be implemented of course. What about adding setFinishedCommand(QString) and setFinishedCommandDescription(QString) to the JobView interface and finishedCommand and finishedCommandDescription signals to KJob? KioJob still needs to fire those signals with sensible values of course. > > * An animated icon of some sort when jobs are running, instead of the "i" > > icon. Discussed at tokamak, and makes it clearer when there are actually > > jobs running. We should probably also show a tooltip when hovering this > > icon. This icon still needs to be designed. > > what about the busy widget we have? we could just use that, with a number > in the middle of it showing how many jobs are currently being processed? That's a very good idea... but what if there are both notifications and jobs present? Regards, Rob ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: Systray jobs and notifications
On Monday 06 April 2009, Rob Scheepmaker wrote: > * job widget layout. I don't know about the rest of you, but I think this > could be improved. The widget takes up quite some space vertically. I'm not > sure how we can keep the widget compact while still showing all the > information (we'll need to add the ETA too). Any ideas? tooltips, "More info >>" link or just not care? :) > * job completed action. As discussed at Tokamak, we'll need to add an extra > action to the JobView (and a slot to KJob) interface to allow, besides > suspend, kill, and resume, an action that can be invoked after the job is > finished. Kio could use this to provide an 'open' action to open the > copied/moved file, or it's containing directory in case of multiple files. > It should probably also provide a way to set a message for both this > action, and the description of what has just finished. makes sense ... > * when a job is completed, replace the job widget with a > notificationwidget, showing the 'completed message' (hmm, we could just use > infoMessage for this, and let kio set a more sensible messages when a job > completes (like "finished copying 5 files from "), and showing the > finished job action. We could add those notifications to an ExtenderGroup > that contains the text "x completed jobs" and a "clear" button that empties > this group. Wait, I'll draft up a extremely beautifull mockup and attach > it. > Problem: it would be very nice if this would also work across reboots, > which isn't the case if the kjob handles this finished action. Most of the > time, this action will just open an application with a certain set of > arguments, so maybe we should just provide the name of an application + > command line arguments in a string. Then the systray would just contain a > firefox like completed jobs history, with open buttons that still work > after a reboot. yes.. that'd probably work and also probably be easier to allow for custom actions. > * An animated icon of some sort when jobs are running, instead of the "i" > icon. Discussed at tokamak, and makes it clearer when there are actually > jobs running. We should probably also show a tooltip when hovering this > icon. This icon still needs to be designed. what about the busy widget we have? we could just use that, with a number in the middle of it showing how many jobs are currently being processed? -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Systray jobs and notifications
Hello, I wanted to discuss what I think should be improved in the plasma systemtray... not the spec, but the jobs/notifications. We discussed some of this already at tokamak, but there's still a lot to be done if we want this to be implemented for 4.3: * job widget layout. I don't know about the rest of you, but I think this could be improved. The widget takes up quite some space vertically. I'm not sure how we can keep the widget compact while still showing all the information (we'll need to add the ETA too). Any ideas? * job completed action. As discussed at Tokamak, we'll need to add an extra action to the JobView (and a slot to KJob) interface to allow, besides suspend, kill, and resume, an action that can be invoked after the job is finished. Kio could use this to provide an 'open' action to open the copied/moved file, or it's containing directory in case of multiple files. It should probably also provide a way to set a message for both this action, and the description of what has just finished. * when a job is completed, replace the job widget with a notificationwidget, showing the 'completed message' (hmm, we could just use infoMessage for this, and let kio set a more sensible messages when a job completes (like "finished copying 5 files from "), and showing the finished job action. We could add those notifications to an ExtenderGroup that contains the text "x completed jobs" and a "clear" button that empties this group. Wait, I'll draft up a extremely beautifull mockup and attach it. Problem: it would be very nice if this would also work across reboots, which isn't the case if the kjob handles this finished action. Most of the time, this action will just open an application with a certain set of arguments, so maybe we should just provide the name of an application + command line arguments in a string. Then the systray would just contain a firefox like completed jobs history, with open buttons that still work after a reboot. * An animated icon of some sort when jobs are running, instead of the "i" icon. Discussed at tokamak, and makes it clearer when there are actually jobs running. We should probably also show a tooltip when hovering this icon. This icon still needs to be designed. I'm looking forward to some brainstorming on this topic. Regards, Rob <>___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
