Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Tuesday 05 January 2010 00:54:53 Patrick Aljord wrote: but if the world goes all in on the web technology boat 100% we will be in a world of pain as time goes on. I don't think so, stuff like canvas, web sockets, fast js engines, webgl or even native client will turn the browser into a powerful platform not only for traditional web apps but I guess time will tell. It doesn't address one important design principle in the least: Separating content from layout and logic. The web fails here today, and none of these new technologies suggests that it won't in the future. And if it's not WebGL, then we'll just get more flash apps, and maybe other proprietary runtimes in the future. Where's this separation of data and presentation? Where's the semantic web that's been talked about for 10 years? Seriously, today's web sucks, and it doesn't look good for tomorrow's. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Tuesday 05 January 2010 11:18:21 Marco Martin wrote: Where's this separation of data and presentation? Where's the semantic web that's been talked about for 10 years? Seriously, today's web sucks, and it doesn't look good for tomorrow's. there is a problem of mentality here that i'm starting to doubt it woud ever be overcomed: website owners want 100% control over the final look of the web site/web app that will be presented to the user. things like semantic web basically says: present the -content- in a way that makes sense for a machine, then it becomes trivial to present the data in the exact form the -user- or, the one wo designed the software that parses this content wants. this scares contents creators to death, becase it will remove control from them (especially because it becomes very easy to do things such as remove ads) so now we have sites that explicitly forbids web scrapping or even if they provide a sensible api its license is so ridiculous that's almost impossible to actually use it and stay legal. I agree that it's scary for content owners, but at the same side it's their problem. One of the things we're trying to achieve with Silk is to separate those two, for example by providing the data from a webservice as a dataengine, probably even abstracted away per service, like the videoengine does. This way, we open up possibilities for new uses with the data, not only putting a new UI on top of it, but also being able to remix this information, and combine it. If some website owner goes belly up because they didn't feel it's a good idea to separate these two, well, then their product just didn't cut it. If your business model purely relies on webad income, bad luck. We're not responsible for unstable business models. In fact, it's something we're suffering from. There's not reason for us to hold back on sensible technical implementations just because some company's business model sucks. Granted, those companies make our job harder, but the best way to have them change their mind is showing that they're missing out on some market and losing users because the user wants data/content, not messy websites with all of it mixed that only runs on very specific systems. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: and probably give poor, or even incorrect, results. what exactly are you wanting to accomplish? HTML5 storage would allow making apps such as todo lists, note taker, or whatever that could make use of a db without the need of writing or using a data engine. Not perfect but nice. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 4, 2010 10:02:29 Patrick Aljord wrote: On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 11:39 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: and probably give poor, or even incorrect, results. what exactly are you wanting to accomplish? HTML5 storage would allow making apps such as todo lists, note taker, or whatever that could make use of a db without the need of writing or using a data engine. Not perfect but nice. kinda sounds like data you'd want to access through akonadi...? -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Chani chan...@gmail.com wrote: HTML5 storage would allow making apps such as todo lists, note taker, or whatever that could make use of a db without the need of writing or using a data engine. Not perfect but nice. kinda sounds like data you'd want to access through akonadi...? Could be, but the thing would be to use web technologies only. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 4, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: Could be, but the thing would be to use web technologies only. so now we're back to why? the answer to which seems to be ease of use. now, since storing things using html5 dbs is really not going to work out overly well for plasmoids (these kinds of web technologies border on toy status relative to what we need), the question becomes how we can make it easy enough that there's no (or at least less ;) temptation to go the web technologies route. so, again ... let's try and collect some requirements and then see if we can't come up with a solution for it. if i understand it correctly, the request is for easy access to data persistence (separate from configuration data), correct? -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: On January 4, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: Could be, but the thing would be to use web technologies only. if i understand it correctly, the request is for easy access to data persistence (separate from configuration data), correct? Correct. The reason I'm insisting (and sorry if I sound annoying) it's because when it comes to the web plasmoid at least, it makes sense to make use of web technologies as much as possible IMO, it's also easier for portability (if I want to reuse the widget with apple dashboard widgets or windows widgets). Also, html5 storage is not a toy, it's used by google on the iphone for example and will get bigger with the time. But yeah, having data persistence would be good even if we're not using html5 storage. It looks like it's qt bug though https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28682 and maybe we'll get html5 storage for free with the next qt version :) ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 4, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: On January 4, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: Could be, but the thing would be to use web technologies only. if i understand it correctly, the request is for easy access to data persistence (separate from configuration data), correct? Correct. The reason I'm insisting (and sorry if I sound annoying) it's because when it comes to the web plasmoid at least, it makes sense to make use of web technologies as much as possible IMO, it's also easier for portability (if I want to reuse the widget with apple dashboard widgets or windows widgets). Also, html5 storage is not a toy, it's used by google on the iphone for example and will get bigger with the time. relative to what we're doing, it is. i somehow doubt it will work at all with remote widgets, for instance. there are lots of technologies out there used by all sorts of products, people and projects. use alone does not make it suitable, nor does it make it non-toy. NASA uses relatively ancient CPUs, things we'd call toys in the modern world, on many/most of their missions. the use of those CPUs in multi-billion dollar cutting edge space projects does not make them even remotely interesting for Plasma, however. in particular, it's pretty evident that html5 storage has been designed for use in web browsers. it's really that specific. because we don't use html anywhere else, right? *sigh* the people looking after the web standards are truly myopic. yes, i think that much of what's going on in web technology today is highly short sighted and severely limited. i've seen these cycles before, and what we're witnessing imho is shortest path development by people who are actually interested in something completely different (providing large server farm backed services) from what they are producing in this case (client side technology to display content and provide interaction). some great stuff is happening, certainly, but if the world goes all in on the web technology boat 100% we will be in a world of pain as time goes on. we will be severely limited in what we are able to do and severely locked into some very narrow ways of working. the world is slightly more interesting and complex than html5 (or any subsequent numbering of that standard will ever likely be) and i refuse to let ourselves be limited by it. we can work with it, adopt and adapt, integrate, etc, absolutely! but limiting ourselves to its limitations? no. the reverse is also true, btw. what we do in Plasma isn't meant to be able to solve all the problems the html people face, and some of the things we're doing are toy like in their problem space, i'm sure. it would be nice if we could all realize that and start using good solutions for the problem instead of trying to shape problems around ad-hoc solutions created elsewhere. it's a fool's errand. /rant But yeah, having data persistence would be good even if we're not using html5 storage. let's define an API for this, then. something we can use in any / all plasmoids and commit to it actually doing what we need. as Chani notes, this might be best backed by Akonadi. or it may be better being backed by something like couchdb, or even as simple as sqllite. either way, that should be an implementation detail. my biggest concerns are: * a good API (obviusly :) * maybe async so that we have greatest flexibility and can even get remote support for free, e.g. by using Plasma::Service * easily travel with the containment / applet configuration. i really don't want to see a proliferation of files just because applets store data and all the trouble (performance, maintenance) that comes with so we need to solve: * storage * API * mechanism for mechanism i'd prefer a Plasma::Service (i don't think pairing it with a DataEngine in this particular case is the best option as they are implicitly shared, so we can't keep data published using a DataEngine private); storage is a technical detail which requires some research; API is the easy entry point and the part that probably most interests you, Patrick... so let's start there perhaps. we need to be able to store and fetch little bits of data. is key/value alone enough? * boolean store(key, data) * any data retrieve(key) * boolean remove(key) * boolean exists(key) * string list listAllKeys() * boolean clear() we could make it so that the service requires an applet associated with it and keep its requests to only entries keyed under that applet's id? if we go with the Plasma::Service approach, we offer the ability for multiple documents such as couchdb provides. that would add the following API: * string list listAllDocuments() * void setCurrentDocument() * string currentDocument() using Plasma::Service, this would give us something like: Service *s = Plasma::Service::load(storage, this); s-setDestination(noteId()); KConfigGroup op =
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote:
relative to what we're doing, it is. i somehow doubt it will work at all with
remote widgets, for instance.
Ok I didn't think about remote widgets. Point taken.
in particular, it's pretty evident that html5 storage has been designed for
use in web browsers. it's really that specific. because we don't use html
anywhere else, right? *sigh* the people looking after the web standards are
truly myopic.
I just assumed that the web plasmoid was done to write browser or web
apps in plasmoids.
but if the world goes all in on the web technology
boat 100% we will be in a world of pain as time goes on.
I don't think so, stuff like canvas, web sockets, fast js engines,
webgl or even native client will turn the browser into a powerful
platform not only for traditional web apps but I guess time will tell.
thoughts/ideas/improvements/refinements?
I like your version with no namespace pollution better:
var storage = new Storage
storage.document = noteId()
storage.store(text, noteText())
Interestingly, the couchdb guys wrote an API on top of html5 storage
to turn it into a key value store, it looks like this in JS:
var jsondb = new JSONDB(dbname);
jsondb[some_key] = {some:json};
jsondb.forEach(function(key, value) {
// in order traversal
});
jsondb.forEach(function(key, value) {
// reverse order traversal
}, {
descending:true
});
jsondb.forEach(function(key, value) {
// inorder traversal,
// starting from startkey,
// ending with endkey
// you can use throw() to stop traversal
},{
startkey:a,
endkey:z
});
jsondb.forEach(function(key, value) {
// reverse order traversal, starting from startkey
// you can use throw() to stop traversal
},{
startkey:z,
descending:true
});
// delete a btree
JSONDB.drop(dbname);
http://github.com/jchris/WebWorkerStorage/blob/ba716338d2627377fb1369193d7bf5dcf96b7ddd/JSONDB.md
___
Plasma-devel mailing list
Plasma-devel@kde.org
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
I saw you committed your changes, looks cool. I used to test my plasmoids in firefox with firebug but now using window.plasmoid makes the whole thing fail. It would be cool if there was a way to start the webkit web inspector from the web plasmoid. Any idea if that is possible? Thanks in advance, Pat ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 3, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: It would be cool if there was a way to start the webkit web inspector from the web plasmoid. Any idea if that is possible? svn up in kdebase/workspace/plasma/generic/scriptengines/webkit :) -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 2, 2010, Petri Damstén wrote: I think dataengines in webkit plasmoids have worked since KDE 4.3. since we're talking about webkit plasmoids (warningthread hijacking, so rude!/warning) .. .. there are some things that could be improved for the webkit plasmoids. it might be helpful to compile a list and then either create a TODO in svn or on techbase. here's my short list: * the context menu has things like reload which obviously don't work properly. those items should be disabled. * there is the temporary file that is created to hold the style sheet. highly inefficient; see the comments in PlasmaWebApplet::makeStylesheet() for my thoughts on this * documentation. who knew that there were calls to JavaScript functions called themeChanged, init, dataUpdated and configChanged that can (and often are) made? anything else? (i need to compile a similar list for the QScript engine as well; it too has its warts) -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: anything else? Maybe this is not related but html5 storage doesn't seem to work, I get this error when starting the plasmoid: Failed to open the database on disk. This is probably because the version was bad or there is not enough space left in this domain's quota (I do have plenty of disk space) This is the example I used: http://webkit.org/demos/sticky-notes/ you can just copy and past the code of that page into main.html of a web plasmoid. It would be good also if when restarting plasma, it would remember what was in the database. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Patrick Aljord patc...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: anything else? Maybe this is not related but html5 storage doesn't seem to work, I get this error when starting the plasmoid: Ok, I tested in arora and I get the same error so it's probably Qt related. It would be cool to have that though, it would enable to write real desktop web app like adobe air, I know I can use data engines but having that would be great too and easier for web devs. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 3, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: Ok, I tested in arora and I get the same error so it's probably Qt related. It would be cool to have that though, it would enable to write real desktop web app like adobe air, I know I can use data engines but having that would be great too and easier for web devs. and probably give poor, or even incorrect, results. what exactly are you wanting to accomplish? -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Aaron J. Seigo ase...@kde.org wrote: requires today's trunk for everything to work perfectly enjoy. thanks, today's trunk is what will become kde 4.4 right? Or has that moved to a branch already? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On Saturday 02 January 2010 03:56:48 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On January 1, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: I just read a comment by Aaron saying that DataEngines can be accesed from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids. I tried to figured how it can be done but couldn't so far. Any clue? :) kdeexamples/plasma/webkit/plasmoids/ requires today's trunk for everything to work perfectly I think dataengines in webkit plasmoids have worked since KDE 4.3. Webkit applet using dataengines, config dialog etc.: http://www.gitorious.org/pdamsten/plasmoids/blobs/master/scriptedimage/contents/code/main.html Petri signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 2, 2010, Petri Damstén wrote: On Saturday 02 January 2010 03:56:48 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On January 1, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: I just read a comment by Aaron saying that DataEngines can be accesed from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids. I tried to figured how it can be done but couldn't so far. Any clue? :) kdeexamples/plasma/webkit/plasmoids/ requires today's trunk for everything to work perfectly I think dataengines in webkit plasmoids have worked since KDE 4.3. ugh, yes, indeed. (been looking through the svn history this morning, though the moving of things around in trunk, e.g. the scriptengines from workspace/plasma/scriptengines to workspace/plasma/generic/scriptengines, has made that a lot more difficult). the problem is that the API is utterly unlike the other scriptengines and the tests that were in the webkit/tests/ directory since day 1 of this script engine's existence were completely ignored by subsequent work and they stopped functioning. funny and sad :) (i've since moved the data engine test to kdeexamples and spified it up a bit more) right now there are two objects in the JS of the webkit plasmoids: plasma and applet. plasma contains one method: knownDataEngines. this is the old style API from 4.2, even, and should be listAllDataEngines. besides that, it really doesn't make sense to have two different objects, one which has exactly one function in it. confusing++, when one will do just fine. moreover, we are calling the object plasmoid in the QScript-driven JavaScript ScriptEngine, and applet in the WebKit one. the lack of consistency isn't good. it sucks to change the API at this point, but it doesn't look like this API was very well groomed to start with. we've changed some of the API in the JavaScript API as well in 4.4, so i'd like to get this all right for 4.4 (as much as we can do such a thing) and commit to API stability from 4.4 on for both JavaScript and WebKit driven plasmoids. i will commit shortly. sorry for breaking your plasmoids with this, but the fixes are easy and should never have been necessary if we'd been watching over this script engine with more diligence and care. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: how can I access DataEngines from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids?
On January 1, 2010, Patrick Aljord wrote: I just read a comment by Aaron saying that DataEngines can be accesed from JavaScript in the Web Plasmoids. I tried to figured how it can be done but couldn't so far. Any clue? :) kdeexamples/plasma/webkit/plasmoids/ requires today's trunk for everything to work perfectly enjoy. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Development Frameworks ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
