Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Vedanta Teacher wrote:

> BTW emacs looks fascinating

   Depending on what you do with a computer emacs can be your base
application. I knew someone who's technical job (for a major hardware
vendor) was filled by doing everything within emacs: mail, web, coding,
document writing (troff), etc.

Rich
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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Vedanta Teacher]

I was looking at W3M from emacs. I just have an overly
full plate at the moment.

BTW emacs looks fascinating

Blessings,
Paul W.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:33 AM, Rich Shepard 
wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Vedanta Teacher wrote:
>
> > Hummm, this is interesting. I was speaking with Wes at the last PLUG lab
> > and I pointed out that I'd been on the internet since 1986 when I was
> > using Jughead (?) Gopher (?) and pulling FTP files off of the web. And in
> > many ways the web was just as fast back then because we didn't have
> Flash,
> > Java etc. clogging the bandwith. As soon as I learn some command line
> > functions I may go exclusively to text based browsers to circumvent these
> > issues.
>
>I, too, used archie and veronica to find and download ftp files before
> the
> Web was invented. I am aware of three text-based web browsers: links, lynx,
> and emacs (the text editor that has everything, including the kitchen
> sink).
>
>Lynx is useful with an application's help pages are all in .html.
>
> Rich
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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2016, Vedanta Teacher wrote:

> Hummm, this is interesting. I was speaking with Wes at the last PLUG lab
> and I pointed out that I'd been on the internet since 1986 when I was
> using Jughead (?) Gopher (?) and pulling FTP files off of the web. And in
> many ways the web was just as fast back then because we didn't have Flash,
> Java etc. clogging the bandwith. As soon as I learn some command line
> functions I may go exclusively to text based browsers to circumvent these
> issues.

   I, too, used archie and veronica to find and download ftp files before the
Web was invented. I am aware of three text-based web browsers: links, lynx,
and emacs (the text editor that has everything, including the kitchen sink).

   Lynx is useful with an application's help pages are all in .html.

Rich
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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Vedanta Teacher]

Hummm, this is interesting. I was speaking with Wes at the
last PLUG lab and I pointed out that I'd been on the internet
since 1986 when I was using Jughead (?) Gopher (?) and
pulling FTP files off of the web. And in many ways the web
was just as fast back then because we didn't have Flash, Java
etc. clogging the bandwith. As soon as I learn some command
line functions I may go exclusively to text based browsers to
circumvent these issues.

Blessings,

Paul W.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Russell Senior 
wrote:

> > "Bill" == Bill Barry  writes:
>
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Galen Seitz  wrote:
>
> Galen> Here's fascinating blog post by Jim Gettys, one of the creators
> Galen> of the X Window System, and a Bell Labs employee.  In it he
> Galen> describes how the internet is being crippled by excessive
> Galen> buffering.
> Galen> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-
> Galen> glasse-must-not-throw-stones-at-another/
>
> Galen> Here's the corresponding LWN article.
> Galen> http://lwn.net/Articles/418918/#Comments
>
> Bill> Some good work has been done since this article came out.  Version
> Bill> 15 of openwrt has available a couple of packages which implement a
> Bill> system called Smart Queue Management that does a good job of
> Bill> mitigating bufferbloat.  The packages are sqm-scripts and a
> Bill> corresponding luci-app-sqm.
>
> Bill> Here is a page about installing and tuning them.
> Bill> https://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/sqm
>
> Bill> There is even a youtube video showing the installation procedure.
> Bill> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvYhifdQ92Q
>
> CoDel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDel) has been the standard
> network scheduler in OpenWrt/LEDE for a few years.  It was introduced
> into OpenWrt in May 2012 and made fq_codel the default queue discipline
> in April 2013, at least in trunk (I don't use standard releases, so I'm
> not sure when those changed).  You should get it out-of-the-box for any
> release later than that.
>
> As a result (as well as improved behavior of client software), we
> generally don't see any problems with bittorrent at Personal Telco nodes
> anymore.  There was a time when I needed to intervene occasionally "to
> protect the network" from bad behavior (mostly upstream bandwidth
> saturation and queue filling), but I haven't needed to for so long I've
> almost forgotten how.  We do still discourage bittorrent on public
> networks, but I'm not sure it's really necessary anymore.
>
> Gettys was at a Community Wireless Summit I attended in Barcelona in
> 2012, and gave a talk about it.
>
>
> --
> Russell Senior, President
> russ...@personaltelco.net
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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Russell Senior]

> "Bill" == Bill Barry  writes:

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Galen Seitz  wrote:

Galen> Here's fascinating blog post by Jim Gettys, one of the creators
Galen> of the X Window System, and a Bell Labs employee.  In it he
Galen> describes how the internet is being crippled by excessive
Galen> buffering.
Galen> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-
Galen> glasse-must-not-throw-stones-at-another/

Galen> Here's the corresponding LWN article.
Galen> http://lwn.net/Articles/418918/#Comments

Bill> Some good work has been done since this article came out.  Version
Bill> 15 of openwrt has available a couple of packages which implement a
Bill> system called Smart Queue Management that does a good job of
Bill> mitigating bufferbloat.  The packages are sqm-scripts and a
Bill> corresponding luci-app-sqm.

Bill> Here is a page about installing and tuning them.
Bill> https://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/sqm

Bill> There is even a youtube video showing the installation procedure.
Bill> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvYhifdQ92Q

CoDel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDel) has been the standard
network scheduler in OpenWrt/LEDE for a few years.  It was introduced
into OpenWrt in May 2012 and made fq_codel the default queue discipline
in April 2013, at least in trunk (I don't use standard releases, so I'm
not sure when those changed).  You should get it out-of-the-box for any
release later than that.

As a result (as well as improved behavior of client software), we
generally don't see any problems with bittorrent at Personal Telco nodes
anymore.  There was a time when I needed to intervene occasionally "to
protect the network" from bad behavior (mostly upstream bandwidth
saturation and queue filling), but I haven't needed to for so long I've
almost forgotten how.  We do still discourage bittorrent on public
networks, but I'm not sure it's really necessary anymore.

Gettys was at a Community Wireless Summit I attended in Barcelona in
2012, and gave a talk about it.


-- 
Russell Senior, President
russ...@personaltelco.net
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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Bill Barry]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Galen Seitz  wrote:

> Here's fascinating blog post by Jim Gettys, one of the creators of the
> X Window System, and a Bell Labs employee.  In it he describes how the
> internet is being crippled by excessive buffering.
> https://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-
> glasse-must-not-throw-stones-at-another/
>
> Here's the corresponding LWN article.
> http://lwn.net/Articles/418918/#Comments
>
> --
> Galen Seitz
> gal...@seitzassoc.com
>
>
Some good work has been done since this article came out.  Version 15 of
openwrt has available a couple of packages which implement a system called
Smart Queue Management that does a good job of mitigating bufferbloat.  The
packages are sqm-scripts and a corresponding luci-app-sqm.

Here is a page about installing and tuning them.
https://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/sqm

There is even a youtube video showing the installation procedure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvYhifdQ92Q

Bill
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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Bill Barry]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Galen Seitz gal...@seitzassoc.com wrote:

 Here's fascinating blog post by Jim Gettys, one of the creators of the
 X Window System, and a Bell Labs employee.  In it he describes how the
 internet is being crippled by excessive buffering.

 https://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/whose-house-is-of-glasse-must-not-throw-stones-at-another/

 Here's the corresponding LWN article.
 http://lwn.net/Articles/418918/#Comments


Thanks for the pointer, that was a very interesting series of blogs. I did
some of the experiments he suggested changing buffer sizes. You can see some
pretty dramatic effects.
Who would have thought that increasing buffer size to decrease packet loss
actually increases packet loss and causes TCP to miscalculate RTT.

Bill


 --
 Galen Seitz
 gal...@seitzassoc.com

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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[logical american]

Bill:

Can you post some results on this (changing buffer sizes and RTT) ?

Thanks

Randall

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Re: [PLUG] internet buffer bloat

[Bill Barry]

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:06 PM, logical american
website.read...@gmail.comwrote:

 Bill:

 Can you post some results on this (changing buffer sizes and RTT) ?

 Thanks

 Randall


The experiments are described here
http://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/home-router-puzzle-piece-one-fun-with-your-switch/#more-136

I have a desktop and a laptop connected via ethernet to my home router. The
experiment is to simulate a big transfer from one to the other and during
the transfer you watch the output of ping. First I initialize a server on
the laptop using nttcp -i then create the load from the client on the
desktop using nttcp -t -D -n2048000 192.168.1.4  ping -n  192.168.1.4

There are two sequences  shown here.

The first sequence uses what was my default buffer size  txqueuelen 1000
Notice how the ping time gets much  worse but not linearly.
Then I change to txqueuelen 0 and the ping time stays small and steady.

Bill

ifconfig eth0 txqueuelen 1000

nttcp -t -D -n2048000 192.168.1.4  ping -n  192.168.1.4
[1] 22730
PING 192.168.1.4 (192.168.1.4) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=0.475 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=8.10 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=3 ttl=64 time=11.5 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=4 ttl=64 time=13.9 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=5 ttl=64 time=16.3 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=6 ttl=64 time=18.1 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=7 ttl=64 time=19.8 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=8 ttl=64 time=21.3 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=9 ttl=64 time=26.5 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=10 ttl=64 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=11 ttl=64 time=50.1 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=12 ttl=64 time=66.1 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=13 ttl=64 time=85.0 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=14 ttl=64 time=107 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=15 ttl=64 time=79.3 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=16 ttl=64 time=100 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=17 ttl=64 time=109 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=18 ttl=64 time=116 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=19 ttl=64 time=121 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=20 ttl=64 time=124 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=21 ttl=64 time=126 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=22 ttl=64 time=128 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=23 ttl=64 time=94.9 ms

ifconfig eth0 txqueuelen 0

nttcp -t -D -n2048000 192.168.1.4  ping -n  192.168.1.4
[2] 22761
PING 192.168.1.4 (192.168.1.4) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=4.75 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=5.09 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=3 ttl=64 time=4.98 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=4 ttl=64 time=4.46 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=5 ttl=64 time=5.74 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=6 ttl=64 time=5.63 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=7 ttl=64 time=5.11 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=8 ttl=64 time=5.70 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=9 ttl=64 time=4.52 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=10 ttl=64 time=4.68 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=11 ttl=64 time=5.82 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=12 ttl=64 time=4.98 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=13 ttl=64 time=4.91 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=14 ttl=64 time=5.76 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=15 ttl=64 time=5.83 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=16 ttl=64 time=5.25 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=17 ttl=64 time=5.87 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=18 ttl=64 time=5.36 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=19 ttl=64 time=5.80 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=20 ttl=64 time=5.77 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=21 ttl=64 time=5.90 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=22 ttl=64 time=5.94 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=23 ttl=64 time=5.06 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=24 ttl=64 time=5.81 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.1.4: icmp_req=25 ttl=64 time=5.46 ms
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