Re: will windows fit?

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I've got a Surface Pro 7 with 8Gbyte RAM and 128 GB SSD with Windows 11
beta.   You can browse the web, fill out forms. listen to music.   You
can't fit *365 on it.   Even if a modern Windows version fit, it would be
very constrained.

On Tue, May 28, 2024 at 10:48 AM z via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> likely no
>
> May 28, 2024 12:42:39 Michael via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>:
>
> I got a 30 GB drive. Will windows fit on such a drive?
>
>
> --
> :-)~MIKE~(-:
>
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Re: AZ Developer Wages, per Feds

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

No.  As a rule software engineers/programmers/developers/computer
scientists all see themselves as professionals who are above unionizing and
seldom or never do.  I think we're seeing the effect of Arizona being a
provincial, 3rd world location for headquarters and software development
options.

It's similar to "we make the chips.  We aren't friken good enough to DESIGN
the chips.  They do that in NICE places."

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 9:35 AM greg zegan  wrote:

> Wow!
> thanks.
> sure look like they are taking advantage of the Right to work state
> workers.
>
> On Thursday, April 25, 2024 at 09:08:07 AM MST, trent shipley via
> PLUG-discuss  wrote:
>
>
> https://www.onetonline.org/link/localwages/15-1251.00?st=AZ
> ---
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AZ Developer Wages, per Feds

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

https://www.onetonline.org/link/localwages/15-1251.00?st=AZ
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Re: Forbes : 10 Highest-Paying Tech Jobs In The U.S.

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

If AI can take over junior level knowledge jobs now, it stands to reason AI
will mature fast enough to keep pace with the rate at which junior level
practitioners would have gained experience to do mid-level and senior jobs.

It's an eventuality that the robots make people obsolete.  The only
questions are
1) whether it happens in 5, 20, or 200 years.
2) a) whether all humans live affluent fulfilling lives, b) whether Elon
Musk, Bill Gates, and Jeff Bezos live affluent, fulfilling lives, and the
rest of us live in Darfur. c) Skynet suffers no primates to live.

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 2:35 PM George Toft via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Thanks for posting.
>
> IMHO, the future is not in tech, as this article defined it, but closely
> related: Identity and Access Management (IAM) and Privileged Access
> Management (PAM), Mainframe operations (yes, mainframes are still here),
> Red Team (h - sexy :) ), and Data Analytics and Machine Learning.
> The pay is definitely comparable to this article's top 5, if not higher.
>
> Whereas I liked being a sysadmin, my job got shipped to Argentina for
> $6/hr (last I heard, they were up to $10/hr).  That's a really bad place
> to be.  If you want to live a nice lifestyle ... and I've been saying
> this since 2005 ... you have to do something that can't be off-shored.
> Do something that must be done in this country.  Lately, this has come
> to mean:
>
> 1. Be inquisitive.  How can I make this cheaper, faster, less
> resource-intensive?  Why did it break?  How do I keep it from ever
> breaking again?  Will this failure happen elsewhere?  Three principles
> for success: Make it easier for the User; make it cheaper; make it more
> efficient.
>
> 2.  Challenge the status quo.  Just because it has always been this way
> doesn't mean it's the best way now.
>
> 3. Write the solutions flowcharts.  If you follow a script (AKA
> flowchart) to arrive at solutions to problems, you can be replaced by an
> AI, specifically, an expert system, and in 5 years, a Generative AI like
> Bard or ChatGPT.  Expert systems been around since the 60's.  Hell, I
> wrote an AI (simple machine learning) in 1990 that corrected spelling
> errors at the command line based on user performance.  You need to be
> the one generating the flow chart for the folks to follow.
>
> 4. Be able to create metrics on everything you do.  "If you can't
> measure it, you can't manage it" is the mantra of management this
> decade.  I've had to become really creative with my metrics to show
> improvement over time, especially when I begin to alter User behavior
> before I figured out the metric.  Oopsies.  I've also discovered how to
> create metrics that track the adoption and consumption of our services,
> which helps management when they choose insane paths like replacing a
> Gartner Magic Quadrant product some some Open Source stuff that's
> "fre."  For those that don't know me, I've been an OS advocate since
> 1998, but there ain't no such thing as a free lunch and when Managers
> see $0.00 licensing costs, they oftentimes fail to understand the local
> engineering effort required to meet that Proprietary product's
> capabilities.  Yes, this is my hot topic this week as I battle three
> levels of management on a fool-hardy decision whose ramifications they
> don't understand.
>
> I'm in the process of changing careers.  The biggest problem I see is
> the total lack of people that can do the above.  Our replacements don't
> exist.  My whole US team is within 5 years of retirement/resignation and
> we have nobody to replace us.  Wanna thrive in the next 20 years, be the
> one that can do the above.  Be our replacements.
>
> BTW - I just had a film in the First Annual AIFilmFest and I interrupted
> the film to sound the alarm about Generative AI taking over junior level
> jobs.  But I rant ...
>
> Cheers!
>
> George Toft
>
> On 12/2/2023 7:30 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Found thins interesting:
> >
> >
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2023/12/01/these-are-the-10-highest-paying-tech-jobs-in-the-us/?sh=276f0e8c515a
> >
> >
> > Keith
> > ---
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
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Re: Stammtisch Tuesday

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Measles results in death or other permanent disability frequently enough
that our ancestors greatly feared it and it's why there's a vaccine for it.

On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 3:33 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Vikriti D'Vita via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 21 Nov 2023 23:52:06 -0700
>
> >😂 Either way, I skipped today's meeting cos I've had a post viral
> >cough for 2 weeks. Its not contagious now, but I didn't wanna scare
> >anyone.
> >
> >Covids old news now but I'm Asian, so I just like wearing masks in
> >winter in general cos everyone gets sick and being sick sucks. :P
> >Missed a week of classes and these turing machines are looking like
> >voodoo to me now.
>
> I'm really sorry about your missed week of classes: That really sucks.
> I know because twelve years ago my daughter got Mono and had to miss two
> weeks, and her incompetent teachers wouldn't give her an excuse for the
> *ON PREMISIS* major exam. She had to drop the class.
>
> My daughter had Mono at 18 and it made a mess of her life for three
> weeks. I had Mono at 17 and it made a mess of my life for three weeks,
> including a week where I lay in bed instead of going to high school.
> Mono's not fatal and leaves no permanent scars, but while you have it
> it's absolutely miserable. My advice regarding Mono is to get plenty of
> rest and sleep, and don't go kissing everyone you cross paths with. Of
> course neither I nor my daughter followed that very same advice from
> our parents, so there you go.
>
> By the way, in 3rd grade I missed three full weeks because of Measles,
> another non-fatal disease that's miserable. I came within microns of
> flunking third grade.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
>
> Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
> ---
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Re: Stammtisch Tuesday

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

It's a proven fact that COVID19 was introduced to China by deviant space
aliens in lab Civets which were subsequently sold in markets for exotic
meats.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 5:24 PM der.hans via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Am 21. Nov, 2023 schwätzte Vikriti D'Vita via PLUG-discuss so:
>
> moin moin Vikriti,
>
> Boulders has been a great host for us for years.
>
> I have been in several times each year since the pandemic started. I have
> worn a mask each and every time and it hasn't been an issue.
>
> Up until we started back for Stammtisch all of my visits were for take
> out. When I asked about Stammtisch returning they were happy to have us
> return.
>
> For Stammtisch I wear a mask until my food shows up. I demask to eat and (
> once I remember to ) remask after I'm done eating.
>
> ciao,
>
> der.hans
>
> > There are places that are not okay with people masking?
> >
> > On 11/21/23 13:02, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> >> OK.  So attendees are required to wear pants or skirts, shirts, shoes,
> and
> >> masks.
> >>
> >> Will N95 or KN95 masks be required and will acceptable masks provided
> or
> >> will folks need to bring their own?
> >>
> >> Also, has it been confirmed that Boulders will be OK with people
> masking?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 8:36 AM der.hans via PLUG-discuss
> >>  plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Am 21. Nov, 2023 schwätzte Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss so:
> >>
> >> moin moin,
> >>
> >>  > Has masking become mandatory again?
> >>
> >> PLUG has members with immunity compromising health issues. I want
> >> them to
> >> be welcome to participate as well.
> >>
> >> The courtesy of masking shows consideration for those with
> underlying
> >> health concerns.
> >>
> >> Covid and RSV are still very active. Friends of mine were just out
> for
> >> a
> >> week with RSV.
> >>
> >> The precaution of masking helps reduce spread of these dangerous
> >> illnesses.
> >>
> >> ciao,
> >>
> >> der.hans
> >>
> >>  > On 2023-11-20 21:52, der.hans via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> >>  >> moin moin,
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Stammtisch is Tuesday at Boulders on Southern starting at 19:00.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> I'm going to try to be there, on call willing.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Physical location - Boulders on Southern, 1010 W Southern Ave,
> >> Mesa, AZ
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Please mask when not eating
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Covid is not over, I want Stammtisch to be a relatively safe
> >> event for
> >>  >> everyone
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Masking is a good way to help protect others
> >>  >>
> >>  >> If you are not feeling well, please stay home. You could join us
> >> in #BBB
> >>  >>
> >>  >> https://lufthans.bigbluemeeting.com/plu-yuk-7xx
> >> <https://lufthans.bigbluemeeting.com/plu-yuk-7xx>
> >>  >>
> >>  >> ciao,
> >>  >>
> >>  >> der.hans
> >>  > ---
> >>  > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
> >>  > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >>  > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >> <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
> >>  >
> >>
> >> -- # https://www.SpiralArray.com <https://www.SpiralArray.com>
> >> https://www.PhxLinux.org <https://www.PhxLinux.org>
> >> #  Free, Libre, and Open Source enthusiasts are collaborators. Maybe
> >> we're
> >> #  involved for slightly different reasons, but in the end, we're
> all
> >> #  essentially trying to go the same direction. -- der.hans,
> >> 2012Jan25---
> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinu

Re: Stammtisch Tuesday

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Dunno.  It wouldn't be good for business.  But if the owner were very
anti-vax, anti-mask, and wanted to stand on that hill, maybe.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 2:26 PM Vikriti D'Vita via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> There are places that are not okay with people masking?
>
> On 11/21/23 13:02, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > OK.  So attendees are required to wear pants or skirts, shirts, shoes,
> > and masks.
> >
> > Will N95 or KN95 masks be required and will acceptable masks provided or
> > will folks need to bring their own?
> >
> > Also, has it been confirmed that Boulders will be OK with people masking?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 8:36 AM der.hans via PLUG-discuss
> >  > <mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Am 21. Nov, 2023 schwätzte Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss so:
> >
> > moin moin,
> >
> >  > Has masking become mandatory again?
> >
> > PLUG has members with immunity compromising health issues. I want
> > them to
> > be welcome to participate as well.
> >
> > The courtesy of masking shows consideration for those with underlying
> > health concerns.
> >
> > Covid and RSV are still very active. Friends of mine were just out
> for a
> > week with RSV.
> >
> > The precaution of masking helps reduce spread of these dangerous
> > illnesses.
> >
> > ciao,
> >
> > der.hans
> >
> >  > On 2023-11-20 21:52, der.hans via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> >  >> moin moin,
> >  >>
> >  >> Stammtisch is Tuesday at Boulders on Southern starting at 19:00.
> >  >>
> >  >> I'm going to try to be there, on call willing.
> >  >>
> >  >> Physical location - Boulders on Southern, 1010 W Southern Ave,
> > Mesa, AZ
> >  >>
> >  >> Please mask when not eating
> >  >>
> >  >> Covid is not over, I want Stammtisch to be a relatively safe
> > event for
> >  >> everyone
> >  >>
> >  >> Masking is a good way to help protect others
> >  >>
> >  >> If you are not feeling well, please stay home. You could join us
> > in #BBB
> >  >>
> >  >> https://lufthans.bigbluemeeting.com/plu-yuk-7xx
> > <https://lufthans.bigbluemeeting.com/plu-yuk-7xx>
> >  >>
> >  >> ciao,
> >  >>
> >  >> der.hans
> >  > ---
> >  > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
> >  > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >  > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
> >  >
> >
> > --
> > # https://www.SpiralArray.com <https://www.SpiralArray.com>
> > https://www.PhxLinux.org <https://www.PhxLinux.org>
> > #  Free, Libre, and Open Source enthusiasts are collaborators. Maybe
> > we're
> > #  involved for slightly different reasons, but in the end, we're all
> > #  essentially trying to go the same direction. -- der.hans,
> > 2012Jan25---
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > <mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > <https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss>
> >
> >
> > ---
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> --
> Vikriti D'Vita
> v...@lokegaonkar.in
> ---
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Re: Stammtisch Tuesday

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

OK.  So attendees are required to wear pants or skirts, shirts, shoes, and
masks.

Will N95 or KN95 masks be required and will acceptable masks provided or
will folks need to bring their own?

Also, has it been confirmed that Boulders will be OK with people masking?



On Tue, Nov 21, 2023 at 8:36 AM der.hans via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Am 21. Nov, 2023 schwätzte Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss so:
>
> moin moin,
>
> > Has masking become mandatory again?
>
> PLUG has members with immunity compromising health issues. I want them to
> be welcome to participate as well.
>
> The courtesy of masking shows consideration for those with underlying
> health concerns.
>
> Covid and RSV are still very active. Friends of mine were just out for a
> week with RSV.
>
> The precaution of masking helps reduce spread of these dangerous
> illnesses.
>
> ciao,
>
> der.hans
>
> > On 2023-11-20 21:52, der.hans via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> >> moin moin,
> >>
> >> Stammtisch is Tuesday at Boulders on Southern starting at 19:00.
> >>
> >> I'm going to try to be there, on call willing.
> >>
> >> Physical location - Boulders on Southern, 1010 W Southern Ave, Mesa, AZ
> >>
> >> Please mask when not eating
> >>
> >> Covid is not over, I want Stammtisch to be a relatively safe event for
> >> everyone
> >>
> >> Masking is a good way to help protect others
> >>
> >> If you are not feeling well, please stay home. You could join us in #BBB
> >>
> >> https://lufthans.bigbluemeeting.com/plu-yuk-7xx
> >>
> >> ciao,
> >>
> >> der.hans
> > ---
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
>
> --
> #  https://www.SpiralArray.com   https://www.PhxLinux.org
> #  Free, Libre, and Open Source enthusiasts are collaborators. Maybe we're
> #  involved for slightly different reasons, but in the end, we're all
> #  essentially trying to go the same direction. -- der.hans,
> 2012Jan25---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
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Re: I read chip maker TSMC is a sweatshop

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

:So you're saying the Indians and Argientinans obviously deserved the job
more than you since they would do the same work for less money?  Also, why
would an American be better at the job than someone from anywhere else?  Or
are you saying you are better than most of your peers in general, you're
part of the 20% of your profession who generate 80% of the value.  I mean
the competition to get into a third-world government university is fierce,
especially if it's ranked.  The selectivity of admission rates match MIT
and Stanford, theoretically Indian and Chinese computer scientists as a
population should outperform their European, and even more their American
competition.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:29 PM George Toft via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> The only shortage that exists is technical people with Bachelors Degrees
> willing to work for minimum wage.
>
> Case in point.  My employer is required to post HR crap in the public
> spaces (break rooms).  One of the posts showed Tata Consultancy was
> providing a DBA for $66K/year.  Tata takes 1/3 (typical), so the
> resource is getting $44K/year ($22/hr).  My kids make more than that
> with a High School education.  This is what the young people are
> competing against, so why go into this field?
>
> Another case in point.  My job got outsourced to Argentina and the
> resources were getting $6/hr.  I later heard it got raised to $10/hr.
> That was still 1/4 of what I was making.  Even if the Argentinians
> screwed up and had to rework a task, the company still saved 50% over
> hiring an American on that task, and they are elated at the cost savings.
>
> Regards,
>
> George Toft
>
> On 6/7/2023 3:29 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > On 2023-06-07 13:59, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> >> Generally, if I hear it from cable news, there's a good chance it's
> >> just someone drumming up support for something.  In this case, we'll
> >> probably hear about some kind of H1B system to make sure the new fabs
> >> get all the people they need, etc.  Same deal as when I was working at
> >> a company that got bought by Dell, and they failed to retain most of
> >> the new employees because they didn't have a structure that worked
> >> with professionals.  Suddenly you saw Michael Dell doing an interview
> >> on CNBC about the need to extend H1B 'cause they aren't getting enough
> >> workers.  At the very least, there's plenty of incentive to drive down
> >> labor costs.  And with the halts for new housing going out, there is a
> >> LOT of incentive to manipulate the market.
> >>
> >> Am I being paranoid?  I probably need to touch more grass.
> >
> > Are you getting too paranoid?  Maybe not.  I quit following the news
> > because I think most are fearmongering and not talking and working on
> > the real problems.
> >
> > I personally do not like the H1B visas because I do not think they are
> > necessary. If there is really a shortage of tech workers then why is
> > there not a few major tech universities?  Why does Gates exploit the
> > H1B and not create a really great tech university? And why do the
> > politicians allow all of this?
> >
> > We have all we need right here in our 50 states, so why do we not do
> > things that benefit ourselves and possibly others?
> >
> > These people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc have forgotten where
> > they came from.
> >
> > QUESTION?
> >
> > I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is located
> > in Taiwan .  Where did they get that technology and who paid for that
> > technology?
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:15 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Don't believe everything you read on the internet.  I've read that
> >>> Abraham Lincoln blames Donald Trump for giving the gun to John
> >>> Wilkes Booth.
> >>>
> >>> On 6/6/23 17:45, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>  Chip maker TSMC is moving to chandler and I have read they are a
>  sweatshop
> 
>  ---
>  PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>  To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>  https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >>> ---
> >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >>
> >> --
> >> James McPhee
> >> jmc...@gmail.com
> >> ---
> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > ---
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> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>

Re: windows in a virtual machine

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Unlike a lot of FOSSers, I'm not a Microsoft hater (Oracle, maybe).  Hey,
sometimes the business equation works out to "you can't afford to use free
software".  But the economic analysis for software is the first unit ye
sell costs a zillion dollars because of how much software development
costs.  Unit two and after cost fractions of a cent--copies of "packaged"
software are almost free to manufacture for the capitalist who own the IP.
If you can stick it to the man, stick it to the man on general principle
and pay as little as legally permissible for a license.  The man still
makes a little money given the 'classical' analysis of manufacturing
software.

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 10:13 AM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Of course, Microsoft wants you to go out and pay $200 a seat licenses as
> "perceived value", but if you're broke (or just cheap or know better),
> they'll take a few bucks too.  They're not choosy as they're printing money
> for themselves anyways.
>
> If you're the kind of person that likes overspending on an expensive purse
> to feel better, feel free and spend that $200 for windoze, but I've paid
> more than enough of the microsoft tax in my life on systems that only ran
> linux, they can cough me up a cheap vm license to run visio in.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 8:45 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks. 10 is only $7. And I thought it was so much more.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 10:13 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > Why not Qemu?
>>>
>>> Just a simple option for a desktop user really (consider the source
>>> asking), much easier to learn and manage than qemu with virtmanager.
>>> Virtualbox *is* Oracle though, and about the only thing more evil is
>>> (maybe) Microsoft and Fakebook (Satan is down on the evil list these days).
>>>
>>> Only real trap with virtualbox (that I know) is to NOT use the extension
>>> pack, as that puts you into their commercial licensing, and they have gone
>>> out of their way to commit bored lawyers to actually sue organizations for
>>> using it (meaning they likely have spyware built-in that phones home
>>> reporting it).
>>>
>>> I'm all for qemu over virtualbox as a more advanced option when someone
>>> is ready to get more into the weeds, but not on a desktop system, and at
>>> that point might as well use proxmox with qemu if dedicated.
>>>
>>>
>>> -mb
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 5:40 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
 Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 4 Jul 2023 08:07:17 -0700

 >Agreed, use Virtualbox,

 Why not Qemu?

 SteveT

 Steve Litt
 Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
 http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
 ---
 PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
 To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
 https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

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>> --
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Re: Like the world needed another dice roller

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I will write the Readme and look at getting rid of accessor methods except
where values are changed.

On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 7:17 PM Vikriti D'Vita via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Yeah a usage readme would be helpful. Quick glance through the code:
> Why are `add_currying` and `multiply_currying` their on functions?
> The only place their used is in `test_hdr`.
> Too much abstraction makes it harder to understand. I'd have just used
> the lambda right there so its obvious what you're testing for without
> having to jump between files.
>
> Also, this is specific to python but, in general, it is discouraged to
> have getters and setters in python like `def get_die_name(self) -> str:`.
> A classes attributes are considered public by default and should be
> directly used. If you need a private attribute, you prepend it with two
> underscores. like `__some_var`. While this is mostly convention, python
> renamed them to `_CLASSNAME__some_var` when accessing from outside the
> class and subclasses.
> If later you decide that you want to do some work in the getter, you can
> make a method with the same name as the attribite, make the attribute
> private, and add the `@property` decorator to the getter. No change in
> your class's interface.
>
> Otherwise looks great :)
>
> On 6/20/23 10:14, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > I just did a thing.
> >
> > And I could really use some feedback.  If it is lite the feedback I'd
> > get from my last coding job it will go something like: your code works,
> > but I don't understand it, there isn't enough documentation, and what
> > documentation there is, doesn't help.
> >
> > https://github.com/trent-shipley/hackable_dice_roller
> > <https://github.com/trent-shipley/hackable_dice_roller>
> >
> >
> > ---
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> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> --
> Vikriti D'Vita
> v...@lokegaonkar.in
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Like the world needed another dice roller

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I just did a thing.

And I could really use some feedback.  If it is lite the feedback I'd get
from my last coding job it will go something like: your code works, but I
don't understand it, there isn't enough documentation, and what
documentation there is, doesn't help.

https://github.com/trent-shipley/hackable_dice_roller
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Niche Jobs

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I was talking last week to my manager's manager about how I was staying
busy on the bench.  I told him I was working on a dice roller in Python,
which was the first program I'm writing for myself, and that I was having a
lot of fun and learning new stuff.  I said the other thing I was doing was
working on a Scala 3 class on Coursera, and that it was really
challenging,but I enjoyed it.  Since the boss in a businessman he was
interested in applications of Scala.  I told him it was used where safety
was an issue, like finance and energy trading.  (Lots of Scala 2
programmers are 1. upset Scala 3 isn't 100% backward compatible with Scala
2,  that it's not as mature as Scala 2, and *above all* they are angry that
it preferentially uses syntactic white space.   I like syntactic white
space.  It's harder to write, but easier to read, and when maintaining code
reading is fundamental.).  Scala also has some rapidly fading application
in data science, but even data science tools written in Scala are now
optimized mostly for use in Python.

A lot of functional languages seem to come into their own when quality and
safety are important enough to justify their low market share and
consequent high cost of development.

The manager's manager wanted to know what are some similar niche,
high-specialization--high-wage types IT jobs are out there.  He's in the
contracting and consulting business, I think it's mostly just professional
curiosity, but I don't know where to start a search.
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Re: Windoze licenses, "Bring us your Poor" edition

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_segmentation

>From a producer perspective, segmentation is GOOD.
>From a producer perspective producing the Nth copy of a good almost for
free is fantastic.

But if consumers can ALSO copy and distribute your product at very, very
low cost, that is Very Bad.

On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 11:33 AM AZ Pete via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Just to chime in here as a long time Windows user (SQL Server DBA), you
> technically don't even need a key to run Windows. I run several Windows VMs
> in "unactivated" mode and have never run into any issues (I don't really
> like "wasting" keys on VMs). Granted that there a few restrictions, such as
> being unable to change desktop wallpaper, customize taskbar, etc.
> Generally, "look and feel" features. But, you will get all the security
> updates and retain full functionality of the O/S and it won't "expire".
> Note that this applies to Windows desktop, Windows Server will "expire"
> after about four months after which you must reinstall the O/S (total BS
> since SQL Server Developer edition is free & never expires, but the license
> is for dev purposes only not production use). I have bought keys from
> Kinguin.net over the years, but haven't done so it a while. They are legit
> keys, but technically they are OEM keys. A bit of a "grey" area, but use
> you're own judgement.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Peter
>
>
> On 6/16/2023 7:31 AM, Anthony Radzykewycz via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> I’m curious to know if the keys bought off this site would match any keys
> found in places like this:
> https://gist.github.com/jhermsmeier/5959110. Also, what would be the
> liability if you paid for the license and that key was pirated like this?
> To be clear, I agree with the advocation of getting these keys as
> inexpensively as possible. Just thought I’d throw this out there and maybe
> you could do a quick compare just in case.
>
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 7:24 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for sharing this Michael!!  If I can get a legit copy of Win10
>> and Win11 for cheep I will eventually install on a VM.
>>
>>
>> On 2023-06-16 04:21, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> >> Are the installation discs sufficient to install Win10 on a no-OS
>> > computer (or a Linux computer with some extra space on the root
>> > drive)?
>> >
>> > Yep, you install the iso from microsoft.com [1] so it's legit, vm or
>> > hardware, give it a key during/after install, and off to the races.
>> >
>> > -mb
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:15 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 15 Jun 2023 18:22:08
>> >> -0700
>> >>
>> >>> So interestingly enough, if/when I need windoze, I often buy from a
>> >>> place like THIS, as a method of getting Windoze officially
>> >> licensed,
>> >>> flat cheap.
>> >>>
>> > <
>> http://mail.sendmailco.com/index.php/campaigns/tb637ap0sybfa/track-url/gv224svhyh867/11430a51e55c5971d23f31e2e7ede8b0f9331165
>> >
>> >>> It updates itself, never had a problem, and simply just works.
>> >>
>> >> Are these legitimate licenses, or Far-East knockoffs?
>> >>
>> >> Are the installation discs sufficient to install Win10 on a no-OS
>> >> computer (or a Linux computer with some extra space on the root
>> >> drive)?
>> >>
>> >> Can you install these as Qemu guests on my Linux computer?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> SteveT
>> >>
>> >> Steve Litt
>> >> Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
>> >> http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
>> >> ---
>> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:why you
>> >> need a mentor
>> >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>> >
>> >
>> > Links:
>> > --
>> > [1] http://microsoft.com
>> > ---
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Re: The end of programming (not the replacement of programmers)

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Yeah given where these things are with put-one-word-after-another LLM's and
image generators,  I don't see it as being too taxing to make an AI which
could generate passable static web sites for mom n' pop restaurants.  Make
it run a 100 examples and the top dozen will rival human work.  Playing the
numbers, you could probably get an AI to generate relatively sophisticated
one-page database-backed websites if you were willing to throw away enough
bad starts.

More to the point, programmers can't write code which does what LLMs and
Image Generators do.  You need an AI.

The point of a business activity is to make or save money.
To make or save money you need a deliverable, product, or result ...
unfortunately.
As a means of producing results, software is evil.
Programmers are an evil means to evil software which is a means to a
regretable business relevant result.

Software is VERY expensive.
It is bug prone.
It requires expensive, annoying prima donna experts to make it work.  They
aren't proper normal folk like mangers, sales people , marketers, HR, or
even accounting and finance.  The best thing you can say about them is they
are too proud and stubborn to unionize.

So if you can replace a person witth a robot or software you always do it.

But if you can replace a person or _per se_ software with an AI, you always
do that.

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 11:48 AM Andrew McRobb via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I don't think AI can completely replace programmers. I see it as a tool.
> Nothing more (at least at this time). It's going to be extremely lacking in
> any context on what the job entails. A manager can't simply go in and type
> "please make me a good looking website that's going to replace Facebook. No
> bugs, please. ;)" There are simply way too many open ended questions!
> Technology stacks, APIs for example that AI will simply not have enough
> context for. A programmer still needs a lot of supervision of the AI to
> make sure the code is working as expected and that it's deployed correctly
> and that it's not doing any big whoopies like allowing SQL injection. Now
> as a programmer, I want to go in and ask it "Write me a simple GTK window
> with OpenGL using Rust". Sure, it would do a fantastic job giving me
> boilerplate code to work off from, but that's going to be the extent of it
> for a very long time until we get to the point all the code it can spit out
> is in assembly/binaries that "just simply work"
>
> Just my two 15 cents.
>
> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 10:48 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> I think the scripters are vulnerable, however the compSci folks will be
>> the ones creating apps that create apps.
>>
>>
>> On 2023-06-06 09:40, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> > I'm saying it doesn't write code.  It doesn't have to.
>> >
>> > Business wants results with minimally acceptable quality.  You build
>> > the AI.  You train the AI.  You get minimally acceptable results.  You
>> > tinker with the AI if desired.
>> >
>> > But the AI does not deliver code.  It delivers useful results within
>> > statistically acceptable tolerances.
>> >
>> > It doesn't make coders obsolete, it makes CODE obsolete.  (Except for
>> > the AI experts' code to build, manage, and improve the AI
>> > )
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 08:30 James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Try copilot and see all the wonderful ways you've never thought of
>> >> to make terrible code even if it passes tests.  Programming the AI
>> >> to write ok code is harder than writing the code right now.
>> >>
>> >> I'm all for the AI stuff.  It's great as a convenient method to
>> >> google, etc.  And codefill is... eh.  If you have a reasonable
>> >> amount of code in your base already, it can do pretty good at
>> >> boilerplate.  Probably helps out 1/4 of the time above standard IDE
>> >> library stuff. (totally scientific measurement of "eh, this").
>> >>
>> >> Here's the thing.  In any system you have a certain amount of
>> >> complexity (entropy) that makes your thing different from the other
>> >> folk.  Reducing boilerplate and the total amount of work to specify
>> >> the complexity is fair game, but if you add too much complexity to
>> >> the language to reduce complexity of typing it, that's where things
>> >> lose out.  Perhaps AI can help with this, red

Re: The end of programming (not the replacement of programmers)

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I'm saying it doesn't write code.  It doesn't have to.

Business wants results with minimally acceptable quality.  You build the
AI.  You train the AI.  You get minimally acceptable results.  You tinker
with the AI if desired.

But the AI does not deliver code.  It delivers useful results within
statistically acceptable tolerances.

It doesn't make coders obsolete, it makes CODE obsolete.  (Except for the
AI experts' code to build, manage, and improve the AI
)




On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 08:30 James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Try copilot and see all the wonderful ways you've never thought of to make
> terrible code even if it passes tests.  Programming the AI to write ok code
> is harder than writing the code right now.
>
> I'm all for the AI stuff.  It's great as a convenient method to google,
> etc.  And codefill is... eh.  If you have a reasonable amount of code in
> your base already, it can do pretty good at boilerplate.  Probably helps
> out 1/4 of the time above standard IDE library stuff. (totally scientific
> measurement of "eh, this").
>
> Here's the thing.  In any system you have a certain amount of complexity
> (entropy) that makes your thing different from the other folk.  Reducing
> boilerplate and the total amount of work to specify the complexity is fair
> game, but if you add too much complexity to the language to reduce
> complexity of typing it, that's where things lose out.  Perhaps AI can help
> with this, reduce the load on our poor hooman brains to remember the
> various options.
>
> Where it will definitely have an effect is repeated tasks (making another
> web frontend router) and information retrieval.
>
> Just my thoughts on it.
>
> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:07 AM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> We are worried about AI learning to do programming and taking over
>> programming jobs.
>>
>> Modern AI doesn't produce code, it makes writing a lot of code
>> unnecessary.
>>
>> It may not be that programmers become obsolete but that coding as we know
>> it now becomes obsolete.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:25 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't get it...
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 5:03 AM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *Pointy haired manager to programmer:*  We are thinking of replacing
>>>> programming with AI.
>>>>
>>>> *Programmer:*  Don't you mean you plan to replace programmers with AI.
>>>>
>>>> *PHM:* No, replace programming itself.
>>>>
>>>> *P:*  How?  Why?
>>>>
>>>> *PHM: * Well, the Big, Poorly Understood AI produces really good
>>>> results without actually writing code.
>>>>
>>>> *P:* Go on...
>>>>
>>>> *PHM:*  Plus it's cheap and really, really prolific and efficient.
>>>>
>>>> *P:* Sure, but its quality is awful!!
>>>>
>>>> *PHM:* So is the quality of your software, all software, really.
>>>>
>>>> *P.* Yeah, but the AI's quality is MUCH worse!
>>>>
>>>> *PHM:*  Yes, but the AI is so affordable, efficient, and prolific,
>>>> that the wrongful death lawsuits will be just a cost of doing business, and
>>>> we'll still come out ahead according to the actuaries.
>>>> ---
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> :-)~MIKE~(-:
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>
>
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> jmc...@gmail.com
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Re: The end of programming (not the replacement of programmers)

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

We are worried about AI learning to do programming and taking over
programming jobs.

Modern AI doesn't produce code, it makes writing a lot of code unnecessary.

It may not be that programmers become obsolete but that coding as we know
it now becomes obsolete.

On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 3:25 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I don't get it...
>
> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 5:03 AM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> *Pointy haired manager to programmer:*  We are thinking of replacing
>> programming with AI.
>>
>> *Programmer:*  Don't you mean you plan to replace programmers with AI.
>>
>> *PHM:* No, replace programming itself.
>>
>> *P:*  How?  Why?
>>
>> *PHM: * Well, the Big, Poorly Understood AI produces really good results
>> without actually writing code.
>>
>> *P:* Go on...
>>
>> *PHM:*  Plus it's cheap and really, really prolific and efficient.
>>
>> *P:* Sure, but its quality is awful!!
>>
>> *PHM:* So is the quality of your software, all software, really.
>>
>> *P.* Yeah, but the AI's quality is MUCH worse!
>>
>> *PHM:*  Yes, but the AI is so affordable, efficient, and prolific, that
>> the wrongful death lawsuits will be just a cost of doing business, and
>> we'll still come out ahead according to the actuaries.
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>
>
> --
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The end of programming (not the replacement of programmers)

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

*Pointy haired manager to programmer:*  We are thinking of replacing
programming with AI.

*Programmer:*  Don't you mean you plan to replace programmers with AI.

*PHM:* No, replace programming itself.

*P:*  How?  Why?

*PHM: * Well, the Big, Poorly Understood AI produces really good results
without actually writing code.

*P:* Go on...

*PHM:*  Plus it's cheap and really, really prolific and efficient.

*P:* Sure, but its quality is awful!!

*PHM:* So is the quality of your software, all software, really.

*P.* Yeah, but the AI's quality is MUCH worse!

*PHM:*  Yes, but the AI is so affordable, efficient, and prolific, that the
wrongful death lawsuits will be just a cost of doing business, and we'll
still come out ahead according to the actuaries.
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math.sqrt

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I'm on the bench at work, so I spend my days following along with examples
in Python books.  Whenever there is a choice to use  x**0.5 or math.sqrt(x)
the books opt for the square root option instead of the equivalent
representation as a fractional power.  Is the implementation of math.sqrt()
more efficient than x**0.5?  Is there a numerical shortcut to the value of
sqrt(x) that will make the sqrt symbol more efficient than the power
equivalent (x^0.5) in every programming language?

I have a math degree, and sometimes it is irksome since x**(1/2) or x^(1/2)
is symbolically more elegant in the formula.
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Re: GURPS Magic (OT, probably not FOSS)

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Why is Lua better than Julia or Scala (or other best language contenders
like Haskell or Smalltalk?)

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 22:51 Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> trent shipley via PLUG-discuss said on Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:31:13 -0700
>
>
> >I know I'd rather not work in the dying VB.Net language.  C# would
> >therefore be the obvious choice.  I'd rather work in Scala, Python, or
> >Java (in that order).  I know just enough Prolog to know it is almost
> >directly applicable to this problem's backend, but I would spend
> >forever getting competent with Prolog, and then no one else would be
> >able to maintain it. F# guts plus a C# outer layer might be a
> >reasonable compromise.
>
> One more language to add to your list is Lua. A lot of game addons are
> made in Lua because it plays nicer with C than most others. People
> often use the Lua for rules and C for implementing those rules.
>
> In my opinion Lua is the best *language* in the world, but because of
> Python's spectacularly useful and reliable Standard Library, I use
> Python.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
> ---
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Re: GURPS Magic (OT, probably not FOSS)

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Thanks Steve.

This is a table-top role-playing play aid, not a video game so C/C++/Rust
would be overkill, but I will look into Lua.

On Sat, Apr 22, 2023, 22:51 Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> trent shipley via PLUG-discuss said on Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:31:13 -0700
>
>
> >I know I'd rather not work in the dying VB.Net language.  C# would
> >therefore be the obvious choice.  I'd rather work in Scala, Python, or
> >Java (in that order).  I know just enough Prolog to know it is almost
> >directly applicable to this problem's backend, but I would spend
> >forever getting competent with Prolog, and then no one else would be
> >able to maintain it. F# guts plus a C# outer layer might be a
> >reasonable compromise.
>
> One more language to add to your list is Lua. A lot of game addons are
> made in Lua because it plays nicer with C than most others. People
> often use the Lua for rules and C for implementing those rules.
>
> In my opinion Lua is the best *language* in the world, but because of
> Python's spectacularly useful and reliable Standard Library, I use
> Python.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
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GURPS Magic (OT, probably not FOSS)

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

(((
My real questions are:

* Is this too much to bite off as a first project?
* What architecture advice do you have?
* What political advice for dealing with the author and publisher do you
have?
* What other advice do you have?
* What other comments do you have?
)))


I use a role-playing system called GURPS 4ed, which has a reputation for
being enormously complex and crunchy.

The default magic system certainly is more calculation intensive than
D&D5's.  Mostly because it's based on spending points from a pool to power
spells, and because acquiring new spells involves a complex network of
categorically distinct prerequisites.

I want to construct a play aid which will have the following features:

* Given my current spell prerequisites, what spells can I acquire next?
More generally, what spells can I acquire in N more layers of the spell
prerequisite graph?  (Output is tabular)

* Given the character's current state, and the fact I want to get a cool
spell X,  what paths lead to X? There is the obvious derivative, optimizing
for A, what are the most optimal paths to X.  (Output is graphs with drill
down.)

* Integration with GURPS Character Assistant 5, which is, alas, proprietary
and witten in VB.net is needed.  GCA5 only runs on Windows.  (You get
around it by running a virtual Windows guest on your Mac or Linux host ...
Or just running it on Windows.)  Everyone in my group uses GCA4 or GCA5 if
they use automated character management at all so--

The magic system network assistant needs to interface with GCA5 as
effectively as possible, especially since the source books are stored in a
semistructured, machine readable format (I *think* they transitioned to
JSON), and character stats, advantages, and disadvantages can be critical
prerequisites for spells.

* It needs to have an adequate GUI (preferably consistent, or even
integrated with GCA5).


I know I'd rather not work in the dying VB.Net language.  C# would
therefore be the obvious choice.  I'd rather work in Scala, Python, or Java
(in that order).  I know just enough Prolog to know it is almost directly
applicable to this problem's backend, but I would spend forever getting
competent with Prolog, and then no one else would be able to maintain it.
F# guts plus a C# outer layer might be a reasonable compromise.

I haven't yet contacted Steve Jackson Games, the publisher, or the GCA
author, Armin D. Sykes.  GCA5 is currently selling for $16.00, but I think
they let you install it as often as you want on your own computers.  At any
rate, I'm not optimistic SJG, in particular, would like to open their
proprietary creative content in the form of data sheets for rule and source
books through an insecure interface.  I'm thinking for that reason they
wouldn't like a Python or scripted solution, or an open source app.

My real questions are:

* Is this too much to bite off as a first project?
* What architecture advice do you have?
* What political advice for dealing with the author and publisher do you
have?
* What other advice do you have?
* What other comments do you have?
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Setting up a webserver lab on one laptop

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

/*
Author: Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
Date: 2023-01-25 08:30 -700
To: Main PLUG discussion list
CC: techlists
Subject: Re: TDD w/ Python, ch 9
Hi Trent,

First question is what is in your heart? Is the path you are following
where you want to go? Do not read anything into my question. It is all
about you, and what you want to do.

I would suggest Bluehost and get as many months as you may need. I know
they have a discount for new customers and I think you have to buy a
year or more to get the discount - worth investigating. I think they
use cPanel, which may or may not be of use to you.

Make sure you have shell access to your shared hosting server.
/

I decided to go with DreamHost, as I had a good experience with them
before.  I got chapter 9 working on Apache on a shared server (the
default).  Unfortunately, chapter 10 is implement on NGINX, and DreamHost
does not provide NGINX hosting at the lower service tiers.  I have no
current or likely use for NGINX except for the tutorial, so more money for
more service is not happening.

/*
If you are not going to keep the website you might consider a hypervisor
instead of shared hosting. Look at VirtualBox and Proxmox. By using a
virtualization software you can build your own server (good for learning
and resume) and save a few bucks. It will take some time and there is a
learning curve.

I recently configured Proxmox on a old piece hardware and am glad I did.

Keith
/

I want to do this ^^^

I want to set up a development environment which mimics live development
and production environments with hypervisor hosts and guests.  I'm
currently using Mint on VMWare Workstation Pro on Windows 11 as my
development environment.  The problem is my 4 core, 16 gig Dell laptop is
lacking in horsepower.   (Compiling a Scala3 Hello World program on the
Mint guest is slow.  Compiling two Scala3 programs at the same time freezes
the Mint guest.)

I don't want to burden the group with providing a detailed handbook or
tutorial on how to set up a test NGINX-Django test system on a modest
laptop, but what are the big parts I'm going to need, some integration
gotchas, and is there a name for this variety of stand-alone
web-development test environment?  (And is there a Linux distro which
provides it in a box?  Maybe that would make a good PLUG FOSS project ...
Linux Web-Dev Environment in a Box.  LWDE-IAB.   maybe not.)

I get a NEW HP lappy Friday.  I could convert this laptop to all Linux All
the Time once the new laptop is stable.  I'm gonna see if I can get some
memory added to the Dell tonight


Trent


Also Keith, are you going to do the presentation some time?
On 2023-01-25 07:53, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I'm on the bench with my employer asd studying test driven development
> using Harry Precival's Test-Driven Development with Python. Percival
> uses a simple web site on Django as the practice or example project.
> In chapter 9 the baby website gets put on a real hosted web server.
> It needs to be an olde fashioned service where you have the freedom to
> do a lot of admin work. That is, you need to have enough rope to hang
> yourself. I also need a domain name and two sub-domain names. Price
> is important. I will probably finish the tutorial book and throw the
> site away instead of keeping it as a personal website.
>
> Has anyone got any suggestions for where to get a domain name and a
> hosting service?
>
> Trent
>
> Choosing Where to Host Our Site
>
> There are loads of different solutions out there these days, but they
> broadly fall into two camps:
>
> * Running your own (possibly virtual) server
> * Using a Platform-As-A-Service (PaaS) offering like Heroku,
> OpenShift, or PythonAnywhere

>
> Particularly for small sites, a PaaS offers a lot of advantages, and I
> would definitely recommend looking into them. We’re not going to use
> a PaaS in this book however, for several reasons. Firstly, I have a
> conflict of interest, in that I think PythonAnywhere is the best, but
> then again I would say that because I work there. Secondly, all the
> PaaS offerings are quite different, and the procedures to deploy to
> each vary a lot — learning about one doesn’t necessarily tell you
> about the others. Any one of them might radically change their process
> or business model by the time you get to read this book.
>
> Instead, we’ll learn just a tiny bit of good old-fashioned server
> admin, including SSH and web server config. They’re unlikely to ever
> go away, and knowing a bit about them will get you some respect from
> all the grizzled dinosaurs out there.
>
> What I have done is to try to set up a server in such a way that’s a
> bit like the environment y

Operational Error: no such table

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I am working on Precival's 2017 Test Driven Development with Python (and
Django) 2nd edition.  I am stuck on chapter 9 which covers deployment to a
shared hosted or dedicated hosted remote development instance.

If I run on the local machine with ~/blah/blah/venv/bin/python3 manage.py
test functional_tests, then all the tests pass fine.

If I run on the remote host with python3 manage.py runserver 0.0.0.0:8000
and run the functional tests, the home page displays but it can't process
input failing with Operational Error: no such table.

I made a new sqlite3 migration and am told there is nothing new needing a
make migration.  I apply migration, and nothing needs to be applied.

I'm thinking, "there is a difference in environments".

I try the same, running on my local machine with python3 manage.py
runserver and running the functional tests, and get the same failure as on
the remote shared host.

So now I think I have some file path weirdness.  Maybe when run on the
Django development server instead of the Django testing tool, the path to
db.sqlite3 is different.

Googling suggests a simple make and apply sqlite3 migrations (which I've
tried), to using absolute file paths with usages to avoid having to change
paths between environments, to deleting the sqlite3 database and rebuild it
re-adding essential site data, like the Django superuser from scratch.
None of them mention any difference between running Django functional tests
directly from the Django tester (which works), and "injecting" a server (in
this case Django's own development server) directly into the functional
test script (which isn't working one either the local laptop or remote
server--they fail with the same Operational Error: no such table message.)



# Build paths inside the project like this: BASE_DIR / 'subdir'.
BASE_DIR = Path(__file__).resolve().parent.parent



# Database
# https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/4.1/ref/settings/#databases
# Differs from example p. 147

DATABASES = {
'default': {
'ENGINE': 'django.db.backends.sqlite3',
'NAME': BASE_DIR / 'db.sqlite3',
}
}


Trent
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Re: TDD w/ Python, ch 9

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Google Domain Names is still there with good, but not the best prices.  I
don't understand why some kinds of domain names cost more.  Are some just
scarce?

Trent

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:47 AM Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> https://m.do.co/c/6f0c38f7ef53 -  referral code for DigitalOcean - good
> for $200/for 60 days. After that, the $4/mo droplet (VPS) is good for most
> simple development, and can scale up or down as needed (as long as you
> don't increase the disk size). Anyone feel free to use it!
>
> Disclaimer: I've worked on their backbone team since June of last year, I
> do not get paid for referrals :)
>
> As far as domain names, I go where it's cheapest for my throwaways, used
> google domains for a bit, but I think that's defunct (shocker).
>
> Best Regards,
> -Thomas Scott
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:50 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> I have not heard of and unusual blacklisting of Bluehost.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2023-01-25 09:21, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 8:30 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Trent,
>> >>
>> >> First question is what is in your heart?  Is the path you are
>> >> following
>> >> where you want to go?  Do not read anything into my question.  It is
>> >> all
>> >> about you, and what you want to do.
>> >
>> > I wanted to be an anthropologist (almost got a PhD), but programming
>> > is the next coolest thing, and until the AIs take over there are a lot
>> > more jobs and it pays better--even in a recession.   :)
>> >
>> >> I would suggest Bluehost and get as many months as you may need.  I
>> >> know
>> >> they have a discount for new customers and I think you have to buy a
>> >>
>> >> year or more to get the discount - worth investigating.  I think
>> >> they
>> >> use cPanel, which may or may not be of use to you.
>> >
>> > Aren't Bluehost hosted sites often blacklisted?  I need to get to this
>> > from my personal PC, plugged into my employer's internet.
>> >
>> >> Make sure you have shell access to your shared hosting server.
>> >>
>> >> I would stay away from GoDaddy for the only reason of price.  I
>> >> would
>> >> encourage you look at them and see how they stack up.
>> >>
>> >> I used to buy my domains at GoDaddy until the price kept increasing.
>> >>
>> >> Now I am with NameSilo.
>> >>
>> >> If you are not going to keep the website you might consider a
>> >> hypervisor
>> >> instead of shared hosting. Look at VirtualBox and Proxmox.  By using
>> >> a
>> >> virtualization software you can build your own server (good for
>> >> learning
>> >> and resume) and save a few bucks.  It will take some time and there
>> >> is a
>> >> learning curve.
>> >
>> > So basically set up a guest as a server and then connect to the guest
>> > like it's a server on the public internet?  My Mint development
>> > environment is a guest on Windows.   I am an 'occasional' Linux and
>> > FOSS user.
>> >
>> > Also, I like programming and software engineering and I'm always happy
>> > when someone does the admin for me and tells me how they want the app
>> > to implement security.  (That is admin is moderately fun, and thinking
>> > about security makes me more anxious and paranoid in general, which is
>> > unpleasant--so I'm even more happy to outsource as much of that as I
>> > can get away with.)
>> >
>> > (My general observation as an almost qualified anthropologist is that
>> > security professionals, whether prison guards, police, or
>> > cyber-security are more anxious and suspicious -- even paranoid than
>> > the population at large.  I suspect they start a little bit more
>> > anxious and suspicious [and it turns them on], then thinking about and
>> > coping with all the stuff bad actors can do to you all day long makes
>> > it ever so much more so.)
>> >
>> >> I recently configured Proxmox on a old piece hardware and am glad I
>> >> did.
>> >>
>> >> Keith
>> >>
>> >> On 2023-01-25 07:53, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
&

The Precisionists Inc

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I work for a contracting company that specializes in finding positions for
neurodiverse individuals, particularly those on the autism spectrum.  (I'm
autistic, bipolar, and attention deficit disordered).

Occasionally real IT jobs come up.  Manual testing jobs are pretty common,
and can lead to more interesting stuff.  At least manual testing is a foot
in the door and counts as experience in IT.  (Autistic people are
stereotypically good at software testing, and the stereotype is true more
often than not.)

If anyone has an interest in submitting a resume, and assuming employment
announcements are on topic, I'll post TPI's web address.


Regards,

Trent.
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Re: TDD w/ Python, ch 9

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 8:30 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Hi Trent,
>
> First question is what is in your heart?  Is the path you are following
> where you want to go?  Do not read anything into my question.  It is all
> about you, and what you want to do.
>

I wanted to be an anthropologist (almost got a PhD), but programming is the
next coolest thing, and until the AIs take over there are a lot more jobs
and it pays better--even in a recession.   :)

>
> I would suggest Bluehost and get as many months as you may need.  I know
> they have a discount for new customers and I think you have to buy a
> year or more to get the discount - worth investigating.  I think they
> use cPanel, which may or may not be of use to you.
>
> Aren't Bluehost hosted sites often blacklisted?  I need to get to this
from my personal PC, plugged into my employer's internet.



> Make sure you have shell access to your shared hosting server.
>
> I would stay away from GoDaddy for the only reason of price.  I would
> encourage you look at them and see how they stack up.
>
> I used to buy my domains at GoDaddy until the price kept increasing.
> Now I am with NameSilo.
>
> If you are not going to keep the website you might consider a hypervisor
> instead of shared hosting. Look at VirtualBox and Proxmox.  By using a
> virtualization software you can build your own server (good for learning
> and resume) and save a few bucks.  It will take some time and there is a
> learning curve.
>
> So basically set up a guest as a server and then connect to the guest like
it's a server on the public internet?  My Mint development environment is a
guest on Windows.   I am an 'occasional' Linux and FOSS user.

Also, I like programming and software engineering and I'm always happy when
someone does the admin for me and tells me how they want the app to
implement security.  (That is admin is moderately fun, and thinking about
security makes me more anxious and paranoid in general, which is
unpleasant--so I'm even more happy to outsource as much of that as I can
get away with.)

(My general observation as an almost qualified anthropologist is that
security professionals, whether prison guards, police, or cyber-security
are more anxious and suspicious -- even paranoid than the population at
large.  I suspect they start a little bit more anxious and suspicious [and
it turns them on], then thinking about and coping with all the stuff bad
actors can do to you all day long makes it ever so much more so.)


> I recently configured Proxmox on a old piece hardware and am glad I did.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> On 2023-01-25 07:53, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > I'm on the bench with my employer asd studying test driven development
> > using Harry Precival's Test-Driven Development with Python.  Percival
> > uses a simple web site on Django as the practice or example project.
> > In chapter 9 the baby website gets put on a real hosted web server.
> > It needs to be an olde fashioned service where you have the freedom to
> > do a lot of admin work.  That is, you need to have enough rope to hang
> > yourself.  I also need a domain name and  two sub-domain names.  Price
> > is important.  I will probably finish the tutorial book and throw the
> > site away instead of keeping it as a personal website.
> >
> > Has anyone got any suggestions for where to get a domain name and a
> > hosting service?
> >
> > Trent
> >
> > Choosing Where to Host Our Site
> >
> > There are loads of different solutions out there these days, but they
> > broadly fall into two camps:
> >
> >   * Running your own (possibly virtual) server
> >   * Using a Platform-As-A-Service (PaaS) offering like Heroku,
> > OpenShift, or PythonAnywhere
> >
> > Particularly for small sites, a PaaS offers a lot of advantages, and I
> > would definitely recommend looking into them. We’re not going to use
> > a PaaS in this book however, for several reasons. Firstly, I have a
> > conflict of interest, in that I think PythonAnywhere is the best, but
> > then again I would say that because I work there. Secondly, all the
> > PaaS offerings are quite different, and the procedures to deploy to
> > each vary a lot — learning about one doesn’t necessarily tell you
> > about the others. Any one of them might radically change their process
> > or business model by the time you get to read this book.
> >
> > Instead, we’ll learn just a tiny bit of good old-fashioned server
> > admin, including SSH and web server config. They’re unlikely to ever
> > go away, and knowing a bit about th

TDD w/ Python, ch 9

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I'm on the bench with my employer asd studying test driven development
using Harry Precival's Test-Driven Development with Python.  Percival uses
a simple web site on Django as the practice or example project.  In chapter
9 the baby website gets put on a real hosted web server.  It needs to be an
olde fashioned service where you have the freedom to do a lot of admin
work.  That is, you need to have enough rope to hang yourself.  I also need
a domain name and  two sub-domain names.  Price is important.  I will
probably finish the tutorial book and throw the site away instead of
keeping it as a personal website.

Has anyone got any suggestions for where to get a domain name and a hosting
service?


Trent




*Choosing Where to Host Our Site*

There are loads of different solutions out there these days, but they
broadly fall into two camps:


   - Running your own (possibly virtual) server
   - Using a Platform-As-A-Service (PaaS) offering like Heroku, OpenShift,
   or PythonAnywhere


Particularly for small sites, a PaaS offers a lot of advantages, and I
would definitely recommend looking into them. We’re not going to use a PaaS
in this book however, for several reasons. Firstly, I have a conflict of
interest, in that I think PythonAnywhere is the best, but then again I
would say that because I work there. Secondly, all the PaaS offerings are
quite different, and the procedures to deploy to each vary a lot — learning
about one doesn’t necessarily tell you about the others. Any one of them
might radically change their process or business model by the time you get
to read this book.

Instead, we’ll learn just a tiny bit of good old-fashioned server admin,
including SSH and web server config. They’re unlikely to ever go away, and
knowing a bit about them will get you some respect from all the grizzled
dinosaurs out there.

What I have done is to try to set up a server in such a way that’s a bit
like the environment you get from a PaaS, so you should be able to apply
the lessons

Percival, Harry. Test-Driven Development with Python (pp. 263-264).
O'Reilly Media. Kindle Edition.   (2017)

Or free at: https://www.obeythetestinggoat.com/pages/book.html
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Python project ideas

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Python UTF8 Treeview Project Feedback Request

I want to move beyond classroom assignments and Exercism.org toy exercises
and start work on my own project.  A major motivation is to have something
to show if I make it to an interview for a software curation and writing
job.

This kind of view of a file tree is everywhere in Python documentation.  It
would seem there is a utility, but I haven't been able to find it.

/home/user/Projects/flask-tutorial
├── flaskr/
│   ├── __init__.py
│   ├── db.py
│   ├── schema.sql
│   ├── auth.py
│   ├── blog.py
│   ├── templates/
│   │   ├── base.html
│   │   ├── auth/
│   │   │   ├── login.html
│   │   │   └── register.html
│   │   └── blog/
│   │   ├── create.html
│   │   ├── index.html
│   │   └── update.html
│   └── static/
│   └── style.css
├── tests/
│   ├── conftest.py
│   ├── data.sql
│   ├── test_factory.py
│   ├── test_db.py
│   ├── test_auth.py
│   └── test_blog.py
├── venv/
├── setup.py
└── MANIFEST.in

(https://flask.palletsprojects.com/en/2.2.x/tutorial/layout/  retrieved
2022-12-16)

What I have discovered is that writing your own program to make this kind
of ASCII representation of a file tree is a classic classroom assignment.
You write a simple general tree, you do recursion, you have to get the
output just right. It's not a bad little class assignment for a data
structures and algorithms second semester.

So I'm thinking I can put the ASCII tree classroom assignment on steroids
and gold plate it.

It would be nice to do a general implementation in C++, Rust, or Java, but
I'm spending a lot of time in Python at work. Since Python is pretty
friendly, I can probably produce a Python version with less effort than in
other languages. It might turn out to be a useful utility run from the
Python command or as a library, and it would then serve as a prototype for
an attempt in a more rigorous and generally applicable language.

*LAYERS*

The project will have Python CLI and library interfaces.  For example, it
might take a parameters such as start=top-left or start=top-center

Working from the output layer down, we have the layer which formats and
emits the file system as a pretty-printed UTF8 file.  By way of gold
plating, the program could have front ends which pretty-print in HTML,
LibreOffice Writer, and PDF.  Although it looks like ASCII representations
of file trees can be generated on the fly with a lexically ordered
depth-first traversal of the tree, there could be a tree structure and a
tree builder.  Then a tree formatter gets the populated tree collection or
data structure.  It walks the intermediate tree using a canned algorithm
provided as a parameter, the links/edges in the tree represent the tree's
structure, and the tree's nodes have default string representations which
will be printed as the nodes of the ASCII graphic.


*THE MISSING PYTHON LIBRARY*


The back of the library should be a utility which provides a general tree
data structure as a container or collection and functions providing
depth-first and breadth-first algorithms to traverse the tree.  I thought
there would certainly be a mature, robust, definitive library wrapping
optimized, long-used C implementations of the top 25 data structures and
their associated algorithms integrated into the Python ecosystem.  What I
managed to find was one recent library, implemented in Python with few
tests and little documentation (alltrees 1.2.4
https://pypi.org/search/?q=alltrees&o=  accessed 2022-12-16).  I didn't
find anything with specialized implementations of things like singly linked
lists or stacks which can be emulated by under-using Python's built-in
dictionaries, lists, sets, and tuples.

If there really isn't much in PyPI providing pure implementations of
classic data structures, then one could fill that space first by creating a
library of (inefficient) pure Python implementations of the desired data
structure containers, and then complementing the Python implementation with
a library providing wrappers around well-proven open-source implementations
of data structures written in C, and tooling the integration well enough
that using the resulting Python packages members provide idiomatic Python
syntax.  The data structure collections, while more specialized than
dictionaries, lists, sets, and tuples, would probably be reasonably useful
for hard-core Pythonistas. It's actually a much better project than the
walk-and-pretty-print-a-tree project I started out with.  Unfortunately,
The only C I even had was learned kind of in passing when I took one
semester of C++ in 1999, and except for sometimes reading a code snippet, I
haven't used it since.


I'm soliciting thoughts, feedback, and comments.
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Re: dBase

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

It looks like SQLite was meant to be a modest application's dedicated SQL
enabled data store.  It was never meant to be concurrent, multiuser or
intensely transactional.  A database professional would say that's a
stupidly lazy programmer trick.

On a similar note I've been reading software engineering books which say
letting the data architects engineer the database is a bad idea,  just let
the programmers evolve the disperate databases and stores as they use agile
methodology to evolve the enterprise systems -- I think of the poor
accountants and data scientists, and think "why am I listening to a
software engineer tell me how to architect the data on the premise
organizing the data is a lost cause anyway which only slows the
enterprise's agile?"

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 20:20 George Toft via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I made a mistake in an application by using SQLite3.  I read about
> SQLite's advantages over MySQL in that it has no network stack, so it's
> faster.  My testing showed that was kinda true - it was faster mostly,
> until multiple tasks started accessing the database concurrently.  I
> applied some fixes I found on the Internet and that helped, then I got
> clever and wrote a wrapper to prevent contention over the database.  I
> tested with 60 concurrent requests and it worked fine.  The code made
> its way into production.  A couple weeks later, in a perfect storm of
> slash-dotting, we got hit with triple the load we ever experienced.  One
> of the storms was the cron job that updated a record in the database.
> The field update failed and all of the other processes relying on that
> field failed.  This was the only outage my team suffered in 2021.  I
> switched over to MySQL (MariaDB) and never looked back.  Haven't had a
> self-induced outage in over a year.
>
> And then one of our vendors uses SQLite to store client information
> (client as in client-server) in the licensing server, and guess what -
> we figured out how to break it without even trying.  I actually had the
> opportunity to have some 1:1 time with the product manager, and I was
> letting him know how his licensing scheme was a huge risk and a single
> point of failure.  About that time, the CIO of a South African bank
> comes up and chimes in about what a piece of crap the licensing system
> was, major single point of failure.  Product manager just turned his
> back and walked away.  Meanwhile, I took the lesson from the CIO and had
> my team apply it to our infrastructure after our 3rd database crash.  No
> license server, no functionality.  Fortunately, it was still in
> development and didn't impact anyone.
>
> I am not a fan of SQLite.  Sure, put it in an embedded device, but not
> anything connected to a network.
>
> Regards,
>
> George Toft
>
> On 12/28/2022 9:45 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Dec 2022 19:02:42 -0700
> >
> >> SQLite surly looks cool, however I would not call is a replacement for
> >> dBase III.  dBase III was very structured and provide the ability to
> >> create forms with widgets.
> > IIRC dBase could make only CLI forms, not GUI forms. If one is willing
> > to restrict one's self to CLI on an 80x25 screen, it's trivial in any
> > language to create functions say() and get(). This is even easier today
> > because you can represent the screen as a 25x80 2 dimensional array,
> > rather than having to construct it from the top down the way you did
> > when 20K was unaffordable.
> >
> >> It looks like SQLite would require some programming and the use of
> >> ncurses or Qt... or maybe some other screen building language.  Am I
> >> wrong?
> > It would be more professional to use nCurses, but you can use plain old
> > screen writes if you wanted to. As far as Qt, my understanding is
> > that dBase never could do proportional spacing or different fonts.
> >
> >> Still it is pretty cool!!
> >> Microsoft owns Visual FoxPro ... why not trim that down?
> > No need to rely on Microsoft. Harbour Project is a Free Software
> > Clipper almost-workalike. https://harbour.github.io/
> >
> >> MS also owns MS-Access which is a kludge in my opinion.
> > Access was a nice DB design tool, but I wouldn't trust it to hold my
> > data.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> > Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> > http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
> > ---
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4-year Programing and Analytics degree from Mesa CC

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Does anyone have any news about the Programming and Analytics 4 year
program they are going to start in Fall 2023 at Mesa CC?   Will it be a CS
or CIS program, or neither? I got a call and was told it's got preliminary
accreditation, but the MCCCD board doesn't even know if the fees will be
different from the standard 2-year degree tuition rates. I expect them to
be significantly lower than the state university tuition rates, as that's
rather a major point of the whole four-year community college initiative.

Trent
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Re: BASH textbook for kids

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

That would have been the early 80's.  When BASIC was not owned by
Microsoft, when it was spelled BASIC for whatever compiler you used, and it
had line numbers, and GOTOs.  I started programming in a gifted program
with a dumb impact printing terminal with an acoustic coupler you stuck a
phone handset into to network over the public switched telephone network
after I got into a gifted student's class in 5th or 6th grade.  I didn't
get a CS major in college because you had to travel between central Kansas
liberal arts colleges for classes and I didn't have a car, so I majored in
math instead, and never have broken into the software or IT world, really.
But now I'm getting close.

In those days you started with Logo or Turtle, or maybe BASIC, and then
started seriously studying programming with Pascal, then you learned C and
later complained that they didn't put you on a Unix machine working with C
starting in CS105.  We had no idea how awful things were compared to what
would come.



Trent

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 11:51 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> trent shipley via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 22 Dec 2022 07:26:18 -0700
>
> >Python is a great first language, and there is no shortage of beginning
> >Python books aimed at young beginners. I've never read a juvenalia
> >programming book, except maybe pre-Visual Basic BASIC with the line
> >numbers and goto-s,
>
> In the 21st century, anyone who teaches a child goto-s, or even fails
> to strongly criticize them to the child, should be shot at dawn.
>
> The only tolerable uses for goto are:
>
> 1) Assembly language, but who uses that today? And modern assemblers
>have JSR (Jump to Subroutine) and RET (Return from subroutine), so
>even that is questionable.
>
> 2) Jump to an abort subroutine, but even this is ill advised.
>
> 3) Break out of a multiply nested loop, but it's much better to
>construct each loop to do the right thing.
>
> I haven't used a goto since maybe 1992 (assembler), and I'm proud of
> that.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
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Re: BASH textbook for kids

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

The "what does she want to do?" is critical.  One reason there's a shortage
of programmers and an even bigger shortage of cybersecurity experts is that
many people who could do these things would rather not do them, even if it
means lower pay.

Yes, a kid's intro-to-programming book would be just what you want for a 10
year old.  Fun, short, gamified projects.  If you can make the moral
compromise, Amazon is your friend.  If you can find a technically inclined
children's librarian to advise you that'd be awesome.  You might even chat
with your child's school librarian about what you had in mind.  No Starch
Press has some interesting kids titles, several for Python.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 3:03 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

>
> What does she want to do?
>
> On 2022-12-22 08:22, Michael via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > I was interested in BASH for her because I want her to get into cyber
> > security. Would a juvensalia book be good for a 10 year old?
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 9:26 AM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> Python is a great first language, and there is no shortage of
> >> beginning Python books aimed at young beginners. I've never read a
> >> juvenalia programming book, except maybe pre-Visual Basic BASIC with
> >> the line numbers and goto-s for me, but at 14 she may be a bit old
> >> for them and you might be OK with just a general audience "learn
> >> programming with Python" book.
> >>
> >> Why were you interested in BASH scripting?  BASH, or any shell
> >> script is not something I'd intentionally pick for someone's first
> >> intro to CS and programming.  Also, shell scripting languages tend
> >> to enforce no software architecture best practices and are full of
> >> footguns.I can see BASH being useful if you wanted her to maximize
> >> her responsibility for administering her own Linux personal machine
> >> ASAP.  There are beginner BASH scripting books, but I doubt there
> >> are any targeted to kids specifically.
> >>
> >> Trent
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:46 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> bad typo... my daughter is 14 not 24 so I need something for
> >> kids. sorry about the typo
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:15 PM greg zegan via PLUG-discuss
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> https://www.zybooks.com/catalog/programming-in-python-3/
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 03:34:14 PM MST, James Mcphee
> >> via PLUG-discuss  wrote:
> >>
> >> Probably my favorite little tutorial on python is a byte of python
> >> https://python.swaroopch.com/
> >>
> >> Though I do wish we had a good tutorial that taught good programming
> >> behaviors that wasn't ultra-specific to a task.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 3:31 PM greg zegan via PLUG-discuss
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> https://pythoninstitute.org/study-resources
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 02:06:46 PM MST, greg zegan via
> >> PLUG-discuss  wrote:
> >>
> >> https://edube.org/learn/pe-1/earn-pcep-certification-8
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 01:07:22 PM MST, JD Austin via
> >> PLUG-discuss  wrote:
> >>
> >> Python and many other things (but not Bash) here:
> >> https://www.w3schools.com/
> >> Bash:
> >>
> >> * https://tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/
> >> * https://linuxconfig.org/bash-scripting-tutorial-for-beginners
> >> * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXhiZeXZVWc
> >>
> >> JD
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> J.D AUSTIN
> >> TWIN GECKOS TECHNOLOGY SERVICES LLC
> >> Open Technology Specialist
> >>
> >> P.O. Box 2487 Apache Junction, Az 85117
> >> Web: www.twingeckos.com [1]
> >> Work: 480.400.5129 or 480-269-4335 [2] [2]
> >> Fax: 602.649.1791 [3] [3] [3] [3]
> >> Cell: 480-288-8195 [4] [4] [4] [4] [4]
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:58 PM Michael via PLUG-discuss
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of a good resource that teaches kids BASH or
> >> PYTHON? I gots myself a 24 year old young lady who I'd like to get a
> >> book for.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> :-)~MIKE~(-:
> >> ---
> >>

Re: BASH textbook for kids

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Python is a great first language, and there is no shortage of beginning
Python books aimed at young beginners. I've never read a juvenalia
programming book, except maybe pre-Visual Basic BASIC with the line numbers
and goto-s for me, but at 14 she may be a bit old for them and you might be
OK with just a general audience "learn programming with Python" book.

Why were you interested in BASH scripting?  BASH, or any shell script is
not something I'd intentionally pick for someone's first intro to CS and
programming.  Also, shell scripting languages tend to enforce no software
architecture best practices and are full of footguns.I can see BASH being
useful if you wanted her to maximize her responsibility for administering
her own Linux personal machine ASAP.  There are beginner BASH scripting
books, but I doubt there are any targeted to kids specifically.

Trent

On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 6:46 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> bad typo... my daughter is 14 not 24 so I need something for kids.
> sorry about the typo
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 10:15 PM greg zegan via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> https://www.zybooks.com/catalog/programming-in-python-3/
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 03:34:14 PM MST, James Mcphee via
>> PLUG-discuss  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Probably my favorite little tutorial on python is a byte of python
>> https://python.swaroopch.com/
>>
>> Though I do wish we had a good tutorial that taught good programming
>> behaviors that wasn't ultra-specific to a task.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 3:31 PM greg zegan via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>> https://pythoninstitute.org/study-resources
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 02:06:46 PM MST, greg zegan via
>> PLUG-discuss  wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://edube.org/learn/pe-1/earn-pcep-certification-8
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 01:07:22 PM MST, JD Austin via
>> PLUG-discuss  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Python and many other things (but not Bash) here:
>> https://www.w3schools.com/
>> Bash:
>>
>>
>>- https://tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/
>>- https://linuxconfig.org/bash-scripting-tutorial-for-beginners
>>- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXhiZeXZVWc
>>
>>
>> JD
>> --
>> J.D AUSTIN
>> TWIN GECKOS TECHNOLOGY SERVICES LLC
>> Open Technology Specialist
>> P.O. Box 2487 Apache Junction, Az 85117
>> Web: www.twingeckos.com
>> Work: 480.400.5129 or 480-269-4335
>> 
>> 
>> Fax: 602.649.1791 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Cell: 480-288-8195 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 12:58 PM Michael via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of a good resource that teaches kids BASH or PYTHON? I
>> gots myself a 24 year old young lady who I'd like to get a book for.
>>
>> --
>> :-)~MIKE~(-:
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> James McPhee
>> jmc...@gmail.com
>> ---
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>
>
> --
> :-)~MIKE~(-:
> ---
> PLU

Re: Pretty-print a directory tree

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Yes.  I discovered writing this kind of file seems to be a common,
programming language independent, CS undergrad exercise.

Someone put their Python homework on GitHub, so I am going to appropriate
their code and try to improve it.  I'm not above looking at the 'pass' code
and appropriating from that (with citations) instead of trying to reinvent
wheels.

Trent

On Fri, Dec 9, 2022 at 12:07 PM T Zack Crawford via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> The command utility `pass` has something looking almost exactly like this.
> It's a password manager that's really more like a frontend wrapper for
> decrypting gpg files located in ~/.password-store . It's not a very
> complicated program, maybe check out the source code to see what they do.
> https://www.passwordstore.org/
>
> Dec 9, 2022 09:58:22 Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>:
>
> Is the utility `tree` an option? You can also use a subprocess call to
> call it from within Python.
>
> Best Regards,
> -Thomas Scott
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2022 at 11:53 AM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Does anyone know how to get an ASCII/Unicode pretty-print of a directory
>> tree, preferably using a Python library or utility.I wanted one to ask
>> a list for help, but my Google-foo was not up to the task.  A working
>> Google search string would be even better than "here follow the link to the
>> utility on GitHub."
>>
>>
>> Trent
>>
>>
>> /home/user/Projects/flask-tutorial
>> ├── flaskr/
>> │   ├── __init__.py
>> │   ├── db.py
>> │   ├── schema.sql
>> │   ├── auth.py
>> │   ├── blog.py
>> │   ├── templates/
>> │   │   ├── base.html
>> │   │   ├── auth/
>> │   │   │   ├── login.html
>> │   │   │   └── register.html
>> │   │   └── blog/
>> │   │   ├── create.html
>> │   │   ├── index.html
>> │   │   └── update.html
>> │   └── static/
>> │   └── style.css
>> ├── tests/
>> │   ├── conftest.py
>> │   ├── data.sql
>> │   ├── test_factory.py
>> │   ├── test_db.py
>> │   ├── test_auth.py
>> │   └── test_blog.py
>> ├── venv/
>> ├── setup.py
>> └── MANIFEST.in
>>
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Pretty-print a directory tree

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Does anyone know how to get an ASCII/Unicode pretty-print of a directory
tree, preferably using a Python library or utility.I wanted one to ask
a list for help, but my Google-foo was not up to the task.  A working
Google search string would be even better than "here follow the link to the
utility on GitHub."


Trent


/home/user/Projects/flask-tutorial
├── flaskr/
│   ├── __init__.py
│   ├── db.py
│   ├── schema.sql
│   ├── auth.py
│   ├── blog.py
│   ├── templates/
│   │   ├── base.html
│   │   ├── auth/
│   │   │   ├── login.html
│   │   │   └── register.html
│   │   └── blog/
│   │   ├── create.html
│   │   ├── index.html
│   │   └── update.html
│   └── static/
│   └── style.css
├── tests/
│   ├── conftest.py
│   ├── data.sql
│   ├── test_factory.py
│   ├── test_db.py
│   ├── test_auth.py
│   └── test_blog.py
├── venv/
├── setup.py
└── MANIFEST.in
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Re: Software Portfolio

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

NICE!  Sometimes good things happen to deserving people and a good deed
goes unpunished.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:00 PM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 01 Dec 2022 19:48:59 +
> (UTC)
>
>
> >I’ve met a few folks who like plaing with open-source projects, but
> >none of them ever said they thought it made a difference in terms of
> >getting a job.
>
> This is an anecdote, so take it for what it's worth: A friend of mine
> is a developer supreme: He thoroughly understands algorithms, data
> structures and protocols at a deep level. He made a free software smart
> phone app and maintained it for his users. A couple years later
> WhatsApp noticed it, noticed him, invited him to California, hired him,
> and when Facebook bought WhatsApp he got a bonus at least if not more
> than sufficient for him to buy a Tesla.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Autumn 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
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Re: Skills for the future

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Both inflation and deflation are like positive feedback loops or
resonance.  A central bank can beat inflation into the ground with interest
rates (even one like this, which is caused by demand pull, supply
shortages, and rising profits) at the cost of a nasty recession (pretty
much what the Fed did at the end of the 70's)  Deflation is less common,
but is really pernicious and hard to fix when it happens.

And this has very little to do with Linux, FOSS, or even IT per se.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 10:38 PM Ed via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> you should look up the difference between a recession and a
> depression. Odds are we will have a middling recession, but the real
> problem is and will be inflation. Inflation is a ratchet, it only goes
> in one direction and hits everyone and everything*. It's like a
> network that has more and more noise on the line. For context,
> consider that people experience something like a half dozen recessions
> in their lifetime - more or less. It's the business cycle.
>
> You already said it -  you expect robotics to become more involved so
> go do that. Just remember robots are capital intensive - so go with
> the big.
>
> *except for Japan and it's lost decade(s) - they had/have deflation
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 7:13 AM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am reading and watching YouTube videos that say the economy is going
> > to tank to maybe as bad as the depression.
> >
> > If this is true what skills are going to be in demand.
> >
> > I suspect there will be a real push to automate things so I'm guessing
> > those who can create browser based business web apps and phone apps will
> > be in high demand.  That will equate to the administrator skills to
> > support such things.
> >
> > I also expect robotics to become more involved in factories,
> > manufacturing, and even flipping burgers.
> >
> > What say you?
> >
> > Thanks!!
> >
> > Keith
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Re: Software Portfolio

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

Hi Stephen,

That is what I had strongly suspected -- especially if you don't have much
experience or you didn't just graduate from a top program.  I think I'm
getting to the point where I can do more than just little training and test
exercises, so it's time to devote some effort to some demonstrable product,
even if I were to get an entry level position in the field which satisfied
me for a while.  (It looks like I might get something soon as a Python web
developer ... which would be a step up from writing automated UI tests in
VBScript.)


Trent

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 9:47 AM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I will be brutally honest. When I review what someone has done the resume
> is less impressive than the work done when it comes to software.
>
> Anything you can opensource and share with the public do so. make a
> website that is based on the same domain as the same email you submit
> resume's on. link any working demos you may have. link your projects via
> git so they can look at what you make.
>
> Keep a project journal someplace and make that available.
>
> You can be the best dev in the world. but unless you can show off what you
> do nobody will have an idea.
>
> Resume's are for headhunters mostly. they look for buzzwords and
> consistent work. as well as references.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 3:53 PM Joseph Sinclair via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Some thoughts that may help (in addition to the good advice from Keith,
>> Steve, and David).
>> 1. Working on some open source software in Github is a good place to
>> build a "here is what I have done" portfolio.  Github has pretty good
>> public analytics showing all your public commits and pull requests, as well
>> as issues, reviews, etc... I've used github history to understand
>> engineering skill, practice, and approach for both candidates and coworkers.
>> 2. What to work on depends a lot on what you find interesting.  If you
>> want to work on Java or other JVM languages (e.g. Scala), I can probably
>> make some suggestions (ping me off-list for detail) for open source
>> projects to work on; if you can be patient I might be able to provide some
>> *light* guidance on some of those.
>> 3. The extreme majority of companies are terrible at interviewing.  It's
>> not entirely you that's bad at interviews; the company is probably about as
>> competent interviewing software engineers as the average garden slug.
>> 4. You can try an approach I've seen some people have good results with.
>> A number of companies have started using things like HackerRank to
>> (foolishly in my opinion) "test" potential hires.  It's relatively simple
>> to work through the "challenges" and "tutorials" on that site if you have
>> time.  Completing the majority of those both makes it simple to pass these
>> "test" interviews (whether you know how to design software or not), and can
>> also produce a large visibility boost if you want to find work with one of
>> the companies that use the service for hiring.
>>
>> Side note (OT and rant, skip if not interested in curmudgeonly rants).
>> Using canned "code challenges" as a pass-fail "test" is about the
>> stupidest way to vet software professionals ever.  High quality engineers
>> are not faster programmers (and make no mistake, HackerRank is mostly based
>> on "get the 'correct' solution fast").  High quality engineers produce
>> designs that meet requirements better, are more secure, perform better, are
>> more reliable, and/or cost less to maintain and operate.  The fact is that
>> people interviewing engineers don't know how to evaluate engineering skill
>> so they fall back to "objective" tests, and end up filtering *out* the very
>> people they want.
>> I want to be clear, asking a coding problem isn't bad; provided the goal
>> is to listen and observe problem solving, however, not get a "right"
>> answer.  Most people I interview never complete my coding problems; but I
>> learn a lot about how they approach problem solving in the process.
>> What's the alternative, though?  I advocate dropping the "interrogation"
>> style interview entirely.  If you have to dig and manipulate to get truth
>> from the interviewee, then you should not hire them at all; they cannot be
>> trusted.  Focus on a clear, honest, open, adult conversation and mutual
>> learning instead.  Ask questions about what the candidate c

Software Portfolio

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

(Lead buried in last two or three paragraphs.)

Hi,

I've been in software writing positions on-and-off since about 1999.  I
spent a couple years teaching myself Oracle SQL and PERL in 1999 and 2000
for a nice application in the phone industry, then I had a long bout of
unemployment, with some false stats on contract programming positions along
the way.  During that time I complimented my degrees, which included a math
major, with an MS in Information Management (really IT management) and a
certificate in programming from Rio Salado, a couple years programming
software tests in VBS for Micro Focus UFT One--which ceased to be very
challenging by the end of two years. Recently, I did a pre-apprenticeship
program with a local company with a software developer apprenticeship
program (TechOne IT)  which basically worked out to a slow-paced virtual
boot camp in anticipation of an initial contingent placement/apprenticeship
proper.

Right now my current employer (The Precisionists Inc)--which is specialized
in semi-supported contingent employment for autistic, neurodiverse, and
other disabled people (in that order) has me on the bench, but I'm close to
getting a new position as a Python web developer ... for which, I could be
more unqualified, but not much.

After lackluster success with the equivalent of more than an AS in CIS
specializing in programming.  I have concluded I face a few obstacles.

1.  I'm autistic, so I can't interview worth a damn.
2.a. There is a tremendous shortage of doctors and nurses, but no one is
going to hire one who hasn't graduated from an accredited program, done an
internship successfully, and passed their credentialing exam ... unless
it's as a drug salesperson.
2.b.  There is a tremendous shortage of software writers, but no one is
going to be studpid enough to hire one until they have completed an
accredited degree, done an internship, done a bootcamp, and maybe gotten
some certs.  I've only done the first.

I've been looking at maybe putting together a "software portfolio".

The stuff on the internet is focused on web-developer portfolio and seems
to be really describing a visually appealing website which is partware
between a resume and CV, but much closer to a friendlier more personable
website--which to pay to have made since you aren't a web designer.

I was thinking more, "this is my public GitHub account and this is software
I've written."

Between school and the recent quasi-bootcamp, I should know Java well
enough to write something useful in it.

I'm partway through a Scala basics book, and I love it sooo much.

I'd like to write more than just toys, maybe starting with little
utility-like things (but all the good ones seem to have been done) or by
doing maintenance or little chores on a Java- or Scala-based open source
project, which raises the question of how to find a not-dead project I fit
well with and which can use my not-MIT grade talent and knowledge.

I'd  really like advice on how to put together a public software portfolio
which is also of practical use (well, of some kind of use to others, even
if not terribly practical.)


Trent
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Re: Consumer Cloud Storage for InterOp

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

No Stephen,

I'm saying I don't like administering this kind of thing.  I'm willing to
pay a service like $125.00 per year for a terabyte of storage, like I for
for Google Drive, but if I do I want the risk management of my
data--including business risk of bankruptcy, protection against data
corruption and loss, protection against accidental or malicious access to
my private information or data, and uptime to be comparable to Google's.

Trent

On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 3:08 PM Stephen Partington 
wrote:

> nextcloud has a desktop client for most OS's Win, OX, and Linux of
> multiple varieties. but it otherwise runs as a website application. If
> you do not want to run a Linus box it runs well in docker or a vm, and they
> have ready-to-run images for you. I run it nicely as part of my unlimited
> hosting, but without a memory cache of any sort, it has moments of
> sluggishness. and The sync tool runs much like Google Drive sync or MS
> Onedrive you point it at one or moe directories. Once a change happens
> there it is replicated up and to other client machines.
>
> https://nextcloud.com/instant-trial/
> https://nextcloud.com/install/#install-clients
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 2:49 PM trent shipley via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> I enjoy programming a lot and dislike sysadmin (one reason I don't use a
>> Linux desktop more.  It's like owning a classic car.  You're always
>> tinkering with it.  The other is "why won't Word ### run on this!")
>>
>> With that in mind are there any large, stable, reputable companies
>> running nextcloud services for consumers.  Can nextcloud services be
>> integrated into GUI file browsers on the three OSes?  (Maybe with something
>> like FUSE or son-of-FUSE?)  Some nice things about Google Drive and
>> OneDrive is they are unlikely to abruptly go out of business taking my data
>> with them and they are likely to keep my data more reliably and securely
>> than I could (of course, they may use it for big data research, targeted
>> marketing, and State can get access to it with just a subpoena, not a
>> search warrant.)
>>
>> Trent
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 12:14 PM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 for nextcloud. I run a nextcloud instance at work and it is immensely
>>> powerful and remarkably straightforward to run. Nginx for me has been
>>> easier that apache (nextcloud has pushed me to learn and implement Nginx
>>> because of this) but it runs very well this way.
>>>
>>> If you decide to go this route use a memcache. Any of the 3 they
>>> suggest. It will be a huge performance boost.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022, 2:10 PM Nathan O'Brennan via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have been running a hosted instance (digital ocean) with Nextcloud
>>>> for years and it works perfectly for this almost exact scenario.
>>>>
>>>> It has problems with some hidden files such as .htaccess at times, but
>>>> otherwise works fantastic. I have abandoned all other cloud platforms for
>>>> it. Email, Calendar, files, and password management, and I have access
>>>> everywhere, including my phone and tablet.
>>>>
>>>> There are free services out there that provide limited storage to a
>>>> Nextcloud storage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 10:56:49 AM CST trent shipley via
>>>> PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > In this order I use Windows, Apple Mac, and Linux Mint.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Sometimes I'm working in LibreOffice, or Java, or Python, etc. and I
>>>> get
>>>>
>>>> > stuck rotating between all three OSes.  I mostly store my stuff or
>>>> Google
>>>>
>>>> > Drive, but some on OneDrive.  I can access both fine on Windows.
>>>> Accessing
>>>>
>>>> > OneDrive from my iMac works OK.  I've had the iMac  unable to find
>>>> files on
>>>>
>>>> > OneDrive and I couldn't figure out why.  I haven't experimented with
>>>> Google
>>>>
>>>> > Drive on Mint, but that's supposed to run OK.  There doesn't seem to
>>>> be a
>>>>
>>>> > sophisticated integration of Linux Mint

Re: Consumer Cloud Storage for InterOp

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

I enjoy programming a lot and dislike sysadmin (one reason I don't use a
Linux desktop more.  It's like owning a classic car.  You're always
tinkering with it.  The other is "why won't Word ### run on this!")

With that in mind are there any large, stable, reputable companies running
nextcloud services for consumers.  Can nextcloud services be integrated
into GUI file browsers on the three OSes?  (Maybe with something like FUSE
or son-of-FUSE?)  Some nice things about Google Drive and OneDrive is they
are unlikely to abruptly go out of business taking my data with them and
they are likely to keep my data more reliably and securely than I could (of
course, they may use it for big data research, targeted marketing, and
State can get access to it with just a subpoena, not a search warrant.)

Trent

On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 12:14 PM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> +1 for nextcloud. I run a nextcloud instance at work and it is immensely
> powerful and remarkably straightforward to run. Nginx for me has been
> easier that apache (nextcloud has pushed me to learn and implement Nginx
> because of this) but it runs very well this way.
>
> If you decide to go this route use a memcache. Any of the 3 they suggest.
> It will be a huge performance boost.
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022, 2:10 PM Nathan O'Brennan via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have been running a hosted instance (digital ocean) with Nextcloud for
>> years and it works perfectly for this almost exact scenario.
>>
>> It has problems with some hidden files such as .htaccess at times, but
>> otherwise works fantastic. I have abandoned all other cloud platforms for
>> it. Email, Calendar, files, and password management, and I have access
>> everywhere, including my phone and tablet.
>>
>> There are free services out there that provide limited storage to a
>> Nextcloud storage.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 10:56:49 AM CST trent shipley via
>> PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>
>> > In this order I use Windows, Apple Mac, and Linux Mint.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Sometimes I'm working in LibreOffice, or Java, or Python, etc. and I get
>>
>> > stuck rotating between all three OSes.  I mostly store my stuff or
>> Google
>>
>> > Drive, but some on OneDrive.  I can access both fine on Windows.
>> Accessing
>>
>> > OneDrive from my iMac works OK.  I've had the iMac  unable to find
>> files on
>>
>> > OneDrive and I couldn't figure out why.  I haven't experimented with
>> Google
>>
>> > Drive on Mint, but that's supposed to run OK.  There doesn't seem to be
>> a
>>
>> > sophisticated integration of Linux Mint and OneDrive.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > LibreOffice and scripting languages work fine when placed on cloud
>> drives.
>>
>> > I couldn't compile Java source files if they lived on Google Drive and I
>>
>> > haven't tried OneDrive yet.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > So my buried lead is "what consumer grade cloud storage inter-operates
>> best
>>
>> > with all three OSes?"  Linux always seems to be the laggard, so the
>>
>> > strategy might be to find services which work well with Linux *then* see
>>
>> > how that pool of solutions work with whatever Apple is calling OSX now
>> and
>>
>> > with Windows.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Sorry for the hybrid desktop world question which is not focus on FOSS
>> or
>>
>> > Linux.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Trent
>>
>>
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Consumer Cloud Storage for InterOp

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

In this order I use Windows, Apple Mac, and Linux Mint.

Sometimes I'm working in LibreOffice, or Java, or Python, etc. and I get
stuck rotating between all three OSes.  I mostly store my stuff or Google
Drive, but some on OneDrive.  I can access both fine on Windows.  Accessing
OneDrive from my iMac works OK.  I've had the iMac  unable to find files on
OneDrive and I couldn't figure out why.  I haven't experimented with Google
Drive on Mint, but that's supposed to run OK.  There doesn't seem to be a
sophisticated integration of Linux Mint and OneDrive.

LibreOffice and scripting languages work fine when placed on cloud drives.
I couldn't compile Java source files if they lived on Google Drive and I
haven't tried OneDrive yet.

So my buried lead is "what consumer grade cloud storage inter-operates best
with all three OSes?"  Linux always seems to be the laggard, so the
strategy might be to find services which work well with Linux *then* see
how that pool of solutions work with whatever Apple is calling OSX now and
with Windows.

Sorry for the hybrid desktop world question which is not focus on FOSS or
Linux.


Trent
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Re: terminal accessibility

[trent shipley via PLUG-discuss]

You can get a whole shell main buffer in standard Linux Emacs.  I have no
idea what adaptive technology tools will do with it.  Back when I used BASH
via the Emacs full edit screen shell buffer, it was more convenient than a
terminal app in a lot of ways.  It also had some nasty gotchas or glitches,
but that was two decades ago.

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 12:36 der.hans via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> moin moin,
>
> I got a question about terminal accessibility. The accessiblity team there
> has orca for GUI. Looks like orca was originally for providing
> accessibility for GNOME.
>
> orca - Scriptable screen reader
>
> They still need something  that works for command line.
>
> Anyone know if orca works with gnome-terminal to provide accessibility for
> command line?
>
> I found the following packages, but have no experience with them.
>
> fenrir - Userland console (TTY) screen reader written in python
> yasr - General-purpose console screen reader
>
> Also, a two parter emacs question.
>
> One can run shell commands in emacs. Can the experience be terminal like
> enough to use that as the shell? The vi mechanism for running commands is
> not sufficient to pretend it's a shell.
>
> If the emacs command line interface is usable as a shell, does emacsspeak
> provide a sufficient audio interface for it?
>
> ciao,
>
> der.hans
> --
> #  https://www.LuftHans.com   https://www.PhxLinux.org
> #  Freedom isn't everything, but without freedom you have nothing. -
> der.hans
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