Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

them a third of it. These were
maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to
get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k.  One
customer in the middle of a lake community was more to
build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay
it up front.

Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that
did construction, so I sat down with someone and we
looked at getting fiber to my house for some baller
service myself, ideally with some employee discount... 
They estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for
construction, including construction street cuts to bury
fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine
wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to
neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit options
probably weren't too attractive to general consumers in
2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay that
well.

Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop
to your house, but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell
that to your neighbors for some premium bandwidth,
everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when
AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.

-mb


On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via
PLUG-discuss mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out
today and told me that the cutoff for the
service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the
box the modem talks to.   He ran some test
anyway and confirmed it's not available.  He
told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber
to my neighborhood, but said it is available in
a small town 5 miles up the road from me in one
direction.  3 miles down the road in the other
direction is a subdivision that has it.  The
fiber runs next to the highway less than a
hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to
see what other options if any are available.

On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that
they can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to
a premise for residential telco, probably more
modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX),
though their traditional copper distribution
isn't built for it unless commercial (their big
PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back
to. Probably something in the telcordia
standards back to ma bell days that says that
is just how it is.  Since the plants are
non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it
can only modulate so high, particularly when
poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck at
12mbps.

If they had to change your home copper, they'd
just run fiber, neither will happen likely.

The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more
bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now
at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more
physical channels as these were would be
trivial, if copper were available, and telcos
wanted to support it. Someone would need to
make the modem too.  Technically cable modems
do this, literally taking "channels" or slices
or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing
them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for
multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet,
taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
ethernet.

AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there
still, and always has been imho.  Moving to San
Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed
by the owners

Re: DSL bonding

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

ruction to get fiber to their
>>> crib alone might be $30-50k.  One customer in the middle of a lake
>>> community was more to build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
>>> contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay it up front.
>>>
>>> Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did construction,
>>> so I sat down with someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house for
>>> some baller service myself, ideally with some employee discount...  They
>>> estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including
>>> construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service,
>>> and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to neighbors, but
>>> back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to
>>> general consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay
>>> that well.
>>>
>>> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house,
>>> but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to your neighbors for some
>>> premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
>>> luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others
>>> aren't shutting them down.
>>>
>>> -mb
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the
>>>>> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
>>>>> modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
>>>>> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
>>>>> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road
>>>>> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
>>>>> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>>>>> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
>>>>> any are available.
>>>>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
>>>>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
>>>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
>>>>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
>>>>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
>>>>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
>>>>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
>>>>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
>>>>> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
>>>>> will happen likely.
>>>>>
>>>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL
>>>>> itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more
>>>>> physical channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were 
>>>>> available,
>>>>> and telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem
>>>>> too.  Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or
>>>>> slices or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to
>>>>> 24 or 32 channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 
>>>>> 8
>>>>> into a port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400
>>>>> gigabit ethernet.
>>>>>
>>>>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
>>>>> imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
>>>>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
>>>>> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
>>>>> ch

Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

vice myself,
ideally with some employee discount...  They estimated
roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including
construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let
alone service, and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I
considered reselling to neighbors, but back then expensive
gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to general
consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't
pay that well.

Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to
your house, but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to
your neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but
presumes your neighbors aren't all luddites.  Some rural
communities are doing this, when AT&T and others aren't
shutting them down.

-mb


On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and
told me that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet
and I'm 5136 feet from the box the modem talks to.  
He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to
bring fiber to my neighborhood, but said it is
available in a small town 5 miles up the road from me
in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other
direction is a subdivision that has it.  The fiber
runs next to the highway less than a hundred yards
from here.  I guess it's time to see what other
options if any are available.

On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they
can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise
for residential telco, probably more modern
deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their
traditional copper distribution isn't built for it
unless commercial (their big PED on the roads your
neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in
the telcordia standards back to ma bell days that
says that is just how it is.  Since the plants are
non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
only modulate so high, particularly when poorly
run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.

If they had to change your home copper, they'd just
run fiber, neither will happen likely.

The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more
bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now at
raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
channels as these were would be trivial, if copper
were available, and telcos wanted to support it.
Someone would need to make the modem too. 
Technically cable modems do this, literally taking
"channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and
load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with
ethernet, taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
ethernet.

AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still,
and always has been imho.  Moving to San Jose in
'99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax
ala modern cable from the outside, and required a
physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First
I looked at it, and was confused enough I had to
call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked to
realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for
the original @home cable isp company then supporting
AT&T cable modems!  The images were even snowy, the
service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read:
wouldn't) improve. When I asked about a cable modem,
they laughed at me, so I had to get DSL (phat
1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv
(yay usenet alt.binaries.video even then), and threw
  

Re: DSL bonding

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

 permitting, etc, let alone service,
>> and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to neighbors, but
>> back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to
>> general consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay
>> that well.
>>
>> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house,
>> but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to your neighbors for some
>> premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
>> luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others
>> aren't shutting them down.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the
>>>> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
>>>> modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
>>>> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
>>>> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road
>>>> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
>>>> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>>>> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
>>>> any are available.
>>>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
>>>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
>>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
>>>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
>>>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
>>>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
>>>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
>>>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
>>>> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>>>>
>>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
>>>> will happen likely.
>>>>
>>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself
>>>> is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
>>>> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
>>>> telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
>>>> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
>>>> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
>>>> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
>>>> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>>>> ethernet.
>>>>
>>>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
>>>> imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
>>>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
>>>> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
>>>> channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First I looked at it, and was
>>>> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
>>>> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home
>>>> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were even
>>>> snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't)
>>>> improve.  When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to
>>>> get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
>>>> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.
>>>>
>>>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out
>>>> even coax.  My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data
>>>> in '99, rel

Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP.  The phone 
company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where he lived.  The only 
internet service available was dialup.  He found that from the roof of 
his barn, he had line of sight to the building the law firm had its 
offices in.  He found some interested neighbors and set up a microwave 
link from his barn to the office.  The local phone company did lease him 
the lines he needed to provide DSL to his neighbors.


On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote:
Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new 
High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are 
pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired 
hybrid internet service.



On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss 
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:


I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would
probably go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if
enough folks around to be worth it.  It's not exactly hard,
backward telcos and cable companies can figure it out, it's all
capital cost up front and who pays for it, ideally more than just you.

Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with
DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which
really meant we installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a
third of it.  These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the
construction to get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k. 
One customer in the middle of a lake community was more to build
into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more contract to make
that construction cost back, or you pay it up front.

Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did
construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at getting
fiber to my house for some baller service myself, ideally with
some employee discount...  They estimated roughly $35k in cost
alone for construction, including construction street cuts to bury
fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine wasn't
terribly complex.  I considered reselling to neighbors, but back
then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to
general consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they
didn't pay that well.

Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your
house, but at scale of cost most likely. Resell that to your
neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes
your neighbors aren't all luddites.  Some rural communities are
doing this, when AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.

-mb


On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told
me that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm
5136 feet from the box the modem talks to.   He ran some
test anyway and confirmed it's not available.  He told me
he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5
miles up the road from me in one direction.  3 miles down
the road in the other direction is a subdivision that has
it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what
other options if any are available.

On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can
only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for
residential telco, probably more modern deployments a
full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional copper
distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their
big PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back to. 
Probably something in the telcordia standards back to ma
bell days that says that is just how it is.  Since the
plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it
can only modulate so high, particularly when poorly
run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.

If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run
fiber, neither will happen likely.

The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth
when DSL itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical
limits.  Combining more physical channels as these were
would 

Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

comcast is available in this area.  They're offering speeds up to 200 
Mbps.  As soon as the AT&T guy left, I went to Comcast's site and signed 
up for 25Mbps service which costs the same as the 10 - 12 AT&T offers.  
I'll have to watch the comcast bill. When I had them before, they liked 
to sneak in extra charges that weren't supposed to be there.  They would 
remove them when I called to complain.  This time I won't be using their 
tv service. I put up an antenna and I use locast.org.


On 8/20/20 12:18 PM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would 
probably go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if enough 
folks around to be worth it.  It's not exactly hard, backward telcos 
and cable companies can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front 
and who pays for it, ideally more than just you.


Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with DS3's to 
their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which really meant we 
installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a third of it.  These 
were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber 
to their crib alone might be $30-50k.  One customer in the middle of a 
lake community was more to build into.  Either they lock you into a 
5yr or more contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay 
it up front.


Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did 
construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at getting 
fiber to my house for some baller service myself, ideally with some 
employee discount...  They estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for 
construction, including construction street cuts to bury fiber, 
permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine wasn't terribly complex.  
I considered reselling to neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit 
options probably weren't too attractive to general consumers in 2003.  
I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay that well.


Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your 
house, but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to your 
neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your 
neighbors aren't all luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, 
when AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.


-mb


On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss 
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:


I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me
that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet
from the box the modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and
confirmed it's not available.  He told me he has heard of no
plans to bring fiber to my neighborhood, but said it is
available in a small town 5 miles up the road from me in one
direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is a
subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway
less than a hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see
what other options if any are available.

On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only
really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential
telco, probably more modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala
CatX), though their traditional copper distribution isn't
built for it unless commercial (their big PED on the roads
your neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in the
telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is
just how it is. Since the plants are non-shielded,
non-twisted pair cabling too, it can only modulate so high,
particularly when poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck
at 12mbps.

If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run
fiber, neither will happen likely.

The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when
DSL itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits. 
Combining more physical channels as these were would be
trivial, if copper were available, and telcos wanted to
support it. Someone would need to make the modem too.
Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels"
or slices or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them
internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for multi-gig
capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit
or 400 gigabit ethernet.

AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and al

Re: DSL bonding

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

ble in a small town 5 miles up the road
>>>> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
>>>> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>>>> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
>>>> any are available.
>>>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
>>>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
>>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
>>>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
>>>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
>>>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
>>>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
>>>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
>>>> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>>>>
>>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
>>>> will happen likely.
>>>>
>>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself
>>>> is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
>>>> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
>>>> telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
>>>> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
>>>> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
>>>> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
>>>> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>>>> ethernet.
>>>>
>>>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
>>>> imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
>>>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
>>>> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
>>>> channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First I looked at it, and was
>>>> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
>>>> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home
>>>> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were even
>>>> snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't)
>>>> improve.  When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to
>>>> get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
>>>> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.
>>>>
>>>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out
>>>> even coax.  My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data
>>>> in '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant
>>>> to your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling
>>>> their techs to fix it.  Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell
>>>> us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had
>>>> their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but
>>>> exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the
>>>> media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll
>>>> never, ever, get better either.  Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer
>>>> rights weren't really needed after all!
>>>>
>>>> -mb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 pairs so I can get
>>>>> 25 Mbps.At least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could
>>>>> bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of how many they
>>>>> want to bond?  As more people abandon landlines, that leaves more capacity

Re: DSL bonding

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new High
speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are pretty dang
phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet
service.


On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would probably
> go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if enough folks around to
> be worth it.  It's not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies
> can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it,
> ideally more than just you.
>
> Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with DS3's to
> their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which really meant we
> installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a third of it.  These were
> maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber to their
> crib alone might be $30-50k.  One customer in the middle of a lake
> community was more to build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
> contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay it up front.
>
> Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did construction, so
> I sat down with someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house for some
> baller service myself, ideally with some employee discount...  They
> estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including
> construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service,
> and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to neighbors, but
> back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to
> general consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay
> that well.
>
> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house,
> but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to your neighbors for some
> premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
> luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others
> aren't shutting them down.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the
>>> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
>>> modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
>>> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
>>> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road
>>> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
>>> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>>> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
>>> any are available.
>>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>
>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
>>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
>>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
>>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
>>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
>>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
>>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
>>> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>>>
>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
>>> will happen likely.
>>>
>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself
>>> is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
>>> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
>>> telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
>>> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
>>> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
>>> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
>>> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>>> ethernet.

Re: DSL bonding

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would probably go
about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if enough folks around to be
worth it.  It's not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies can
figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it, ideally
more than just you.

Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with DS3's to
their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which really meant we
installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a third of it.  These were
maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber to their
crib alone might be $30-50k.  One customer in the middle of a lake
community was more to build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay it up front.

Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did construction, so
I sat down with someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house for some
baller service myself, ideally with some employee discount...  They
estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including
construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service,
and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to neighbors, but
back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to
general consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay
that well.

Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house, but
at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to your neighbors for some
premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others
aren't shutting them down.

-mb


On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the
>> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
>> modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
>> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
>> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road
>> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
>> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
>> any are available.
>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>
>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
>> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>>
>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
>> will happen likely.
>>
>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself
>> is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
>> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
>> telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
>> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
>> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
>> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
>> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>> ethernet.
>>
>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
>> imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
>> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
>> channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First I looked at it, and was
>> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
>> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home
>> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable mod

Re: DSL bonding

[Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss]

I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the
> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
> modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road
> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
> any are available.
> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>
> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>
> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
> will happen likely.
>
> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself is
> stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
> telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
> ethernet.
>
> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
> imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
> channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First I looked at it, and was
> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home
> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were even
> snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't)
> improve.  When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to
> get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.
>
> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out even
> coax.  My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data in
> '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to
> your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling
> their techs to fix it.  Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell
> us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.
>
> Sigh.
>
> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had
> their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but
> exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the
> media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll
> never, ever, get better either.  Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer
> rights weren't really needed after all!
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 pairs so I can get 25
>> Mbps.At least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could
>> bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of how many they
>> want to bond?  As more people abandon landlines, that leaves more capacity
>> for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for internet customers.
>> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>
>> So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty much as
>> described, fairly painless.
>>
>> 
>>
>> I had sch

Re: DSL bonding

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

All the traditional 2-wire telco's are rather SOL at this point, where I
think most have transitioned to fiber for anything new.  If they aren't,
they might as well go home as it is end of life technology and was 20 years
ago.

Next up, Starlink (Tesla/Musk) is going to start soaking up that old/rural
residential service like yours where the inept telco can't get you above
20mbps, and unlike legacy satellite internets (hughes, etc), there isn't
massive latency as these are Low-Earth Orbit, so more real ~30-60ms RTT
times.  Amazon is trying to get in on the action now too, but a bit late to
the game.

AT&T can start watching another wave of massive abandonment of their
services ala their Phone and Dish TV services, but now internet too.  And I
say good riddance to a cling-on parasite.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/08/spacex-starlink-beta-tests-show-speeds-up-to-60mbps-latency-as-low-as-31ms/

-mb


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 4:02 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I've read articles saying AT&T is planning on abandoning their copper in
> rural areas when it fails and instead transitioning landline customers in
> those reas to VOIP adapters that will use their 4G network.  Here in
> Tennessee there are lots of hills and not so many people living around
> them.  I know one guy who lives between 2 hills and has no cell service at
> home.  When the landline goes down, he has to drive to the top of either
> hill where he gets cell service to call AT&T.  If they're paying so little
> attention to their existing network, I can't picture them spending a
> fortune to build the tower necessary to provide service to all their
> customers out in the hills.
> On 8/18/20 3:03 PM, Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> That seems to be the grand irony of fiber - you can have a nationwide
> backbone with thousands of Gb/s of bandwidth running on your street, and as
> you said Jim - be a hundred yards short of 25 Mbps. I don't buy a ton of
> the 5G *we're going to fix all the things *but if fixed broadband could
> become a reality in the mid-band spectrum, there might be a new last mile
> in town (and I would move much farther out to the country).
>
> - Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.sc...@gmail.com
>
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
---
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To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
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Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

I've read articles saying AT&T is planning on abandoning their copper in 
rural areas when it fails and instead transitioning landline customers 
in those reas to VOIP adapters that will use their 4G network.  Here in 
Tennessee there are lots of hills and not so many people living around 
them.  I know one guy who lives between 2 hills and has no cell service 
at home. When the landline goes down, he has to drive to the top of 
either hill where he gets cell service to call AT&T.  If they're paying 
so little attention to their existing network, I can't picture them 
spending a fortune to build the tower necessary to provide service to 
all their customers out in the hills.


On 8/18/20 3:03 PM, Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss wrote:
That seems to be the grand irony of fiber - you can have a nationwide 
backbone with thousands of Gb/s of bandwidth running on your street, 
and as you said Jim - be a hundred yards short of 25 Mbps. I don't buy 
a ton of the 5G /we're going to fix all the things /but if fixed 
broadband could become a reality in the mid-band spectrum, there might 
be a new last mile in town (and I would move much farther out to the 
country).


- Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.sc...@gmail.com 



---
PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

Re: DSL bonding

[Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss]

That seems to be the grand irony of fiber - you can have a nationwide
backbone with thousands of Gb/s of bandwidth running on your street, and as
you said Jim - be a hundred yards short of 25 Mbps. I don't buy a ton of
the 5G *we're going to fix all the things *but if fixed broadband could
become a reality in the mid-band spectrum, there might be a new last mile
in town (and I would move much farther out to the country).

- Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.sc...@gmail.com


On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 4:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the
> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
> modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road
> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
> any are available.
> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>
> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>
> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
> will happen likely.
>
> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself is
> stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
> telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
> ethernet.
>
> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
> imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
> channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First I looked at it, and was
> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home
> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were even
> snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't)
> improve.  When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to
> get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.
>
> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out even
> coax.  My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data in
> '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to
> your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling
> their techs to fix it.  Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell
> us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.
>
> Sigh.
>
> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had
> their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but
> exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the
> media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll
> never, ever, get better either.  Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer
> rights weren't really needed after all!
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 pairs so I can get 25
>> Mbps.At least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could
>> bond.  Is there a technical l

Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the 
cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the 
modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not 
available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my 
neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the 
road from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other 
direction is a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the 
highway less than a hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see 
what other options if any are available.


On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really 
guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably 
more modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their 
traditional copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial 
(their big PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably 
something in the telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says 
that is just how it is.  Since the plants are non-shielded, 
non-twisted pair cabling too, it can only modulate so high, 
particularly when poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.


If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither 
will happen likely.


The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL 
itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more 
physical channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were 
available, and telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to 
make the modem too. Technically cable modems do this, literally taking 
"channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them 
internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same 
with ethernet, taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing across them, 
whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit ethernet.


AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been 
imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by 
the owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern 
cable from the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to 
switch between 13 channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First 
I looked at it, and was confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf 
the cable "channels" worked to realize just how bad it was, and I then 
worked for the original @home cable isp company then supporting AT&T 
cable modems!  The images were even snowy, the service was so bad even 
a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't) improve.  When I asked about a cable 
modem, they laughed at me, so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), 
disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet alt.binaries.video even 
then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.


I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out 
even coax.  My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem 
data in '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the 
cable plant to your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke 
despite our rolling their techs to fix it.  Then they'd get angry at 
us for doing so and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.


Sigh.

Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had 
their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity 
but exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to them (and Comcast, all 
the media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax 
dollars, it'll never, ever, get better either.  Good thing Net 
Neutrality and consumer rights weren't really needed after all!


-mb


On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss 
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:


150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 pairs so I can
get 25 Mbps.    At least it's not comcast. I wonder how many pairs
they could bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just a
matter of how many they want to bond?  As more people abandon
landlines, that leaves more capacity for AT&T to bond multiple
pairs for internet customers.

On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:

So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty
much as described, fairly painless.



I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a few
years ago, and we first hit the outside where CL ran their
cabling in.  It was an ancient telephony distribution from the
90's, and I've never had a land-line in my house since owning it
in 2002. My house built in 95 at least used cat5 or like, so I
have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need was just fine for
bonded DSL  He ripped out the old block, removing the house
cabling but

Re: DSL bonding

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
you're stuck at 12mbps.

If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither will
happen likely.

The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself is
stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
ethernet.

AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First I looked at it, and was
confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home
cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were even
snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't)
improve.  When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to
get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.

I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out even
coax.  My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data in
'99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to
your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling
their techs to fix it.  Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell
us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.

Sigh.

Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had
their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but
exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the
media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll
never, ever, get better either.  Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer
rights weren't really needed after all!

-mb


On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> 150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 pairs so I can get 25
> Mbps.At least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could
> bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of how many they
> want to bond?  As more people abandon landlines, that leaves more capacity
> for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for internet customers.
> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>
> So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty much as
> described, fairly painless.
>
> 
>
> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a few years ago,
> and we first hit the outside where CL ran their cabling in.  It was an
> ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and I've never had a
> land-line in my house since owning it in 2002.  My house built in 95 at
> least used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need
> was just fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old block, removing the
> house cabling but the one, and isolated the particular line we needed to my
> office where the modem lives, added an approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl is
> 2x 2-wire channels, and they essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels.
> I have tested this to n-by gigabit upstreams.
>
> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so telcos built on this 100
> years ago are a bit assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation schemas
> in use for data and other things to move beyond where they're at.  DSL
> makes up for this, particularly when double up on wires it gets better, but
> still unshielded and prone to breakdown.  Problem is mostly it isn't
> shielded, thus capable of v

Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 pairs so I can get 25 
Mbps.    At least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could 
bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of how many 
they want to bond?  As more people abandon landlines, that leaves more 
capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for internet customers.


On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty much 
as described, fairly painless.




I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a few years 
ago, and we first hit the outside where CL ran their cabling in.  It 
was an ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and I've never 
had a land-line in my house since owning it in 2002.  My house built 
in 95 at least used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 
2 pairs I need was just fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old 
block, removing the house cabling but the one, and isolated the 
particular line we needed to my office where the modem lives, added an 
approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl is 2x 2-wire channels, and they 
essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels.  I have tested this to 
n-by gigabit upstreams.


Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so telcos built on this 
100 years ago are a bit assed-out on passable high-frequency 
modulation schemas in use for data and other things to move beyond 
where they're at.  DSL makes up for this, particularly when double up 
on wires it gets better, but still unshielded and prone to breakdown.  
Problem is mostly it isn't shielded, thus capable of very high 
frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so it will never go much 
further than it has today whereas Cable scales to gigabits with 
channelization and QAM modulation at 32bit rates.


VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel, and 2x of these 
get you to around CL's bonded DSL limits.  This also includes your 
distance limitations to your local DSLAM, or regional router that 
terminates your data that degrades this eventually further you are 
from it, so it's a bit tricky. It's been stuck here for years, and 
pretty much at life end. This is why my cousin living half a mile from 
me can only get 75mbps from CL and I can with bonded @150mbps here.  
Old crap network there.


Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever to ~100GbE, but 
depends on how your provider does low-rate Passive Optical Networking 
(PON) today for residential fiber.  Not quite the same as a business 
data network, but any fiber is better than copper networks.


Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber vs. copper in new 
builds.  I like my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for me ever.  
Unless I street cut my block for fiber myself, which I've considered, 
just need to get my neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit isp.  ;)


-mb


On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss 
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:


Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go out and buy a 4 conductor
phone cord.

On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:

My understanding of this is that they will activate the second
pair that is commonly used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This
will allow 2 lines active to the device.

Changes inside might need to happen if your residence does not
have 4 wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1
pair)

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:

Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service.  I've signed up
for an
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally got someone there who
would tell
me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade.
They're bonding 2
pairs to supply the faster speed here.  I've read up online
about DSL
bonding.  I understand that one pair will carry some of the
data, and
the other pair will carry some.  But one thing I didn't find
out was
whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and
the
modem.  Is everything done outside or do they have to come
inside?  I
currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the
wall jack.
Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord?  Do
they install
an extra box outside or inside?  I guess all will be answered
on the
18th when the guy is scheduled to be here.   I'm really
curious how this
works.
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h

Re: DSL bonding

[Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss]

So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty much as
described, fairly painless.



I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a few years ago,
and we first hit the outside where CL ran their cabling in.  It was an
ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and I've never had a
land-line in my house since owning it in 2002.  My house built in 95 at
least used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need
was just fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old block, removing the
house cabling but the one, and isolated the particular line we needed to my
office where the modem lives, added an approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl is
2x 2-wire channels, and they essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels.
I have tested this to n-by gigabit upstreams.

Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so telcos built on this 100
years ago are a bit assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation schemas
in use for data and other things to move beyond where they're at.  DSL
makes up for this, particularly when double up on wires it gets better, but
still unshielded and prone to breakdown.  Problem is mostly it isn't
shielded, thus capable of very high frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS,
so it will never go much further than it has today whereas Cable scales to
gigabits with channelization and QAM modulation at 32bit rates.

VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel, and 2x of these get you
to around CL's bonded DSL limits.  This also includes your distance
limitations to your local DSLAM, or regional router that terminates your
data that degrades this eventually further you are from it, so it's a bit
tricky.  It's been stuck here for years, and pretty much at life end.  This
is why my cousin living half a mile from me can only get 75mbps from CL and
I can with bonded @150mbps here.  Old crap network there.

Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever to ~100GbE, but depends
on how your provider does low-rate Passive Optical Networking (PON) today
for residential fiber.  Not quite the same as a business data network, but
any fiber is better than copper networks.

Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber vs. copper in new
builds.  I like my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for me ever.  Unless I
street cut my block for fiber myself, which I've considered, just need to
get my neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit isp.  ;)

-mb


On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go out and buy a 4 conductor phone cord.
> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
>
> My understanding of this is that they will activate the second pair that
> is commonly used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow 2 lines
> active to the device.
>
> Changes inside might need to happen if your residence does not have 4 wire
> (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service.  I've signed up for an
>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally got someone there who would tell
>> me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade. They're bonding 2
>> pairs to supply the faster speed here.  I've read up online about DSL
>> bonding.  I understand that one pair will carry some of the data, and
>> the other pair will carry some.  But one thing I didn't find out was
>> whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and the
>> modem.  Is everything done outside or do they have to come inside?  I
>> currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the wall jack.
>> Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord?  Do they install
>> an extra box outside or inside?  I guess all will be answered on the
>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to be here.   I'm really curious how this
>> works.
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
> --
> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
>
> Stephen
>
> ---
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> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
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Re: DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go out and buy a 4 conductor phone cord.

On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
My understanding of this is that they will activate the second pair 
that is commonly used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow 
2 lines active to the device.


Changes inside might need to happen if your residence does not have 4 
wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)


On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss 
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:


Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service.  I've signed up for an
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally got someone there who would
tell
me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade. They're
bonding 2
pairs to supply the faster speed here.  I've read up online about DSL
bonding.  I understand that one pair will carry some of the data, and
the other pair will carry some.  But one thing I didn't find out was
whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and the
modem.  Is everything done outside or do they have to come inside?  I
currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the wall
jack.
Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord?  Do they
install
an extra box outside or inside?  I guess all will be answered on the
18th when the guy is scheduled to be here.   I'm really curious
how this
works.
---
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--
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from 
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.


Stephen

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Re: DSL bonding

[Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss]

My understanding of this is that they will activate the second pair that is
commonly used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow 2 lines
active to the device.

Changes inside might need to happen if your residence does not have 4 wire
(2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service.  I've signed up for an
> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally got someone there who would tell
> me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade. They're bonding 2
> pairs to supply the faster speed here.  I've read up online about DSL
> bonding.  I understand that one pair will carry some of the data, and
> the other pair will carry some.  But one thing I didn't find out was
> whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and the
> modem.  Is everything done outside or do they have to come inside?  I
> currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the wall jack.
> Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord?  Do they install
> an extra box outside or inside?  I guess all will be answered on the
> 18th when the guy is scheduled to be here.   I'm really curious how this
> works.
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss



-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen
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DSL bonding

[Jim via PLUG-discuss]

Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service.  I've signed up for an 
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally got someone there who would tell 
me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade. They're bonding 2 
pairs to supply the faster speed here.  I've read up online about DSL 
bonding.  I understand that one pair will carry some of the data, and 
the other pair will carry some.  But one thing I didn't find out was 
whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and the 
modem.  Is everything done outside or do they have to come inside?  I 
currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the wall jack.  
Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord?  Do they install 
an extra box outside or inside?  I guess all will be answered on the 
18th when the guy is scheduled to be here.   I'm really curious how this 
works.

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