Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Victor Odhner]

Thanks again for the support. Tom has his computer.
Got a Latitude i7 as described below, $169 + $25 (+tax) for another 4GB 
installed.

This was from Feature Marketing, they were very pleasant to work with.
When Tom went back to get it, they added a “father’s day” gift of a classy bag.

They have certain Linux distros they usually load for non-Windows users, and I 
asked for something else, verbally, so minor fluke we’ll fix; don’t complicate 
everything like I do.
:)

As I said below, they say most of their PCs come from Fortune 500 companies 
that have leased the computers for something like 2 years and then return them 
to the manufacturers, who then dump them on the re-use market. This PC was 
totally clean, one little scratch, keypads didn’t look at all worn.

I think they may tend to be my provider for any future PCs.
Thanks again especially to Stephen and Phil.
___

On 20180618, at 12:36, Victor Odhner  wrote:

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread!
My friend Tom also appreciates the concern.

I’ll feed back what I’ve collected from this so far, but first I should explain 
why $200s and 4GB memory is not as stupid as it might seem.

Tom’s business is going out and tuning pianos, or providing appraisals for 
sale. His use of a computer is:
  (a) using email to communicate with clients;
  (b) preparing quotes and appraisal documents using Libre Office;
  (c) printing those documents;
  (d) working with simple spreadsheets.
  (e) some web browsing.
So 4GB should be just fine. He’s not the kind to get impatient over swap time. 
He uses an external disk so doesn’t need to store lots of history in the 
laptop. The only real requirement is that the computer keeps ticking!

Tips I’m looking at:

Stephen, re: Latitude i5/i7: Tom does carry his laptop around, rugged is good.
In fact, we may be onto one of these: ...

Feature Marketing — suggested by Phil.Waclawski.
They have Dell Latitude i7 E6330 13.3” for $169.00, I think a year warranty.
I chatted with them. We *may* run over there and close a deal, maybe with some 
upgrades.
This place seems pretty solid, they say they sell a lot of linux computers to 
local students, whose teachers have sent them repeat business over several 
years; some local business, but they do most of their business out of state. 
Most of the computers come from big companies. Comments?
They’re in the Scottsdale Airport area, about 8 miles east of me.

Resell Electronics — suggested by Todd. 
Interesting, I just called them up at 877-726-0104. Their web site doesn’t show 
inventory because they do most of their business on ebay.
Walk-ins are welcome, at 850 W Lincoln St. Door 1 in Phoenix, that’s off 7th 
Ave just south of the bridge over the railroad tracks. They have a computer 
there where you can search what’s in their inventory, but the stuff is in their 
warehouse and you don’t see it till you buy it. I think I’ll run down there 
tomorrow.

Fry’s deal of the week: HP 11-y010nr, 11.6" Stream Laptop Celeron N3060, 4GB, 
32GB eMMC, $199. The good point here is solid state and the fact that it’s new, 
but Fry’s service is horrible in my experience and I don’t like the idea of 
sending things away for 

Stephen, re: thinkpad: I’m biased against Corporate China, but I hear good 
things about thinkpad with Linux.

Trent & Stephen have reinforced my feeling against current ChromeBook. And 
prices aren’t all that great either, if you do some shopping.

Eric, we’re in the Paradise Valley area of Phoenix. If we should run into an 
ongoing warranty hassle you’re totally right about distance. Since Feature 
Marketing is right here, that is a plus for me. But I don’t mind driving around 
a bit. (Where are you?)

Eric, re Red 7: I haven’t heard much mention of them since they started some 20 
years ago, but yes, I see redsevenlinux.com : they 
seem to still be in business, and it looks like a good business model. But 
either their site has been owned, or they lack focus: Computer solutions are 
mixed with a lame porn story and big-cock talk on their front page. Looks a tad 
unstable.

I think Somebody off-line mentioned Data Doctors so I dropped in there. The 
main guy at that store gave me a friendly lecture on using computers that 
someone else got rid of, like trade-in cars at a dealership. I spent years 
running second hand cars into the ground, so that isn’t too convincing to me; 
but I have also bought one used PC from a repair shop that turned out to be a 
total lemon, and I wasted money on a new battery that didn’t help, so that 
carries some weight.

Thanks,
Victor


On 20180614, at 15:15, Carruth, Rusty mailto:rusty.carr...@smartm.com>> wrote:

Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.  (Disclaimer - I have 16G on both my 
personal laptop and my work laptop.  I used to have 4G on my work laptop, bah 
humbug)
 
My wife’s laptop has 4G, and has to kill off firefox every once in a while due 

Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Stephen Partington]

A chromebook could work, but he would have to move to the further end of
the spectrum to get a workable device. And then he would have to consider
alternatives to a locally run Libre Office. (Google sheets for example or
one of the web based libre office options).

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 11:32 PM Victor Odhner  wrote:

> I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread!
> My friend Tom also appreciates the concern.
>
> I’ll feed back what I’ve collected from this so far, but first I should
> explain why $200s and 4GB memory is not as stupid as it might seem.
>
> Tom’s business is going out and tuning pianos, or providing appraisals for
> sale. His use of a computer is:
>   (a) using email to communicate with clients;
>   (b) preparing quotes and appraisal documents using Libre Office;
>   (c) printing those documents;
>   (d) working with simple spreadsheets.
>   (e) some web browsing.
> So 4GB should be just fine. He’s not the kind to get impatient over swap
> time. He uses an external disk so doesn’t need to store lots of history in
> the laptop. The only real requirement is that the computer keeps ticking!
>
>
> Tips I’m looking at:
>
> Stephen, re: Latitude i5/i7: Tom does carry his laptop around, rugged is
> good.
>
> In fact, we may be onto one of these: ...
>
>
> Feature Marketing — suggested by Phil.Waclawski.
>
> They have Dell Latitude i7 E6330 13.3” for $169.00, I think a year
> warranty.
> I chatted with them. We *may* run over there and close a deal, maybe with
> some upgrades.
> This place seems pretty solid, they say they sell a lot of linux computers
> to local students, whose teachers have sent them repeat business over
> several years; some local business, but they do most of their business out
> of state. Most of the computers come from big companies. Comments?
> They’re in the Scottsdale Airport area, about 8 miles east of me.
>
>
> Resell Electronics — suggested by Todd.
>
> Interesting, I just called them up at 877-726-0104. Their web site doesn’t
> show inventory because they do most of their business on ebay.
> Walk-ins are welcome, at 850 W Lincoln St. Door 1 in Phoenix, that’s off
> 7th Ave just south of the bridge over the railroad tracks. They have a
> computer there where you can search what’s in their inventory, but the
> stuff is in their warehouse and you don’t see it till you buy it. I think
> I’ll run down there tomorrow.
>
>
> Fry’s deal of the week: HP 11-y010nr, 11.6" Stream Laptop Celeron N3060,
> 4GB, 32GB eMMC, $199. The good point here is solid state and the fact that
> it’s new, but Fry’s service is horrible in my experience and I don’t like
> the idea of sending things away for
>
> Stephen, re: thinkpad: I’m biased against Corporate China, but I hear
> good things about thinkpad with Linux.
>
> Trent & Stephen have reinforced my feeling against current ChromeBook. And
> prices aren’t all that great either, if you do some shopping.
>
> Eric, we’re in the Paradise Valley area of Phoenix. If we should run into
> an ongoing warranty hassle you’re totally right about distance. Since
> Feature Marketing is right here, that is a plus for me. But I don’t mind
> driving around a bit. (Where are you?)
>
> Eric, re Red 7: I haven’t heard much mention of them since they started
> some 20 years ago, but yes, I see redsevenlinux.com: they seem to still
> be in business, and it looks like a good business model. But either their
> site has been owned, or they lack focus: Computer solutions are mixed with
> a lame porn story and big-cock talk *on their front page.* Looks a tad
> unstable.
>
> I think Somebody off-line mentioned Data Doctors so I dropped in there.
> The main guy at that store gave me a friendly lecture on using computers
> that someone else got rid of, like trade-in cars at a dealership. I spent
> years running second hand cars into the ground, so that isn’t too
> convincing to me; but I have also bought one used PC from a repair shop
> that turned out to be a total lemon, and I wasted money on a new battery
> that didn’t help, so that carries some weight.
>
> Thanks,
> Victor
> 
>
> On 20180614, at 15:15, Carruth, Rusty  wrote:
>
> Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.  (Disclaimer - I have 16G on both
> my personal laptop and my work laptop.  I used to have 4G on my work
> laptop, bah humbug)
>
> My wife’s laptop has 4G, and has to kill off firefox every once in a while
> due to its apparent memory leak.  However, I’ve got 16 G at work running
> windows, and every few days **I** have to kill my firefox because it is
> taking around 14G (or at least guess which window is causing the leak)….
>
> (Ok, yes, I’m a heavy user.  I confess.  (Is there a group for that?) )
>
> We’re using Lenovo at work, and a T410 worked fine (as fine as it can with
> only 4G - but all the hardware worked ok as I remember).  4G max RAM, I
> think, but I think there’s a T420 or something that takes more RAM.
>
> I’ve had relatively good luck in the 

Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Victor Odhner]

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread!
My friend Tom also appreciates the concern.

I’ll feed back what I’ve collected from this so far, but first I should explain 
why $200s and 4GB memory is not as stupid as it might seem.

Tom’s business is going out and tuning pianos, or providing appraisals for 
sale. His use of a computer is:
  (a) using email to communicate with clients;
  (b) preparing quotes and appraisal documents using Libre Office;
  (c) printing those documents;
  (d) working with simple spreadsheets.
  (e) some web browsing.
So 4GB should be just fine. He’s not the kind to get impatient over swap time. 
He uses an external disk so doesn’t need to store lots of history in the 
laptop. The only real requirement is that the computer keeps ticking!

Tips I’m looking at:

Stephen, re: Latitude i5/i7: Tom does carry his laptop around, rugged is good.
In fact, we may be onto one of these: ...

Feature Marketing — suggested by Phil.Waclawski.
They have Dell Latitude i7 E6330 13.3” for $169.00, I think a year warranty.
I chatted with them. We *may* run over there and close a deal, maybe with some 
upgrades.
This place seems pretty solid, they say they sell a lot of linux computers to 
local students, whose teachers have sent them repeat business over several 
years; some local business, but they do most of their business out of state. 
Most of the computers come from big companies. Comments?
They’re in the Scottsdale Airport area, about 8 miles east of me.

Resell Electronics — suggested by Todd. 
Interesting, I just called them up at 877-726-0104. Their web site doesn’t show 
inventory because they do most of their business on ebay.
Walk-ins are welcome, at 850 W Lincoln St. Door 1 in Phoenix, that’s off 7th 
Ave just south of the bridge over the railroad tracks. They have a computer 
there where you can search what’s in their inventory, but the stuff is in their 
warehouse and you don’t see it till you buy it. I think I’ll run down there 
tomorrow.

Fry’s deal of the week: HP 11-y010nr, 11.6" Stream Laptop Celeron N3060, 4GB, 
32GB eMMC, $199. The good point here is solid state and the fact that it’s new, 
but Fry’s service is horrible in my experience and I don’t like the idea of 
sending things away for 

Stephen, re: thinkpad: I’m biased against Corporate China, but I hear good 
things about thinkpad with Linux.

Trent & Stephen have reinforced my feeling against current ChromeBook. And 
prices aren’t all that great either, if you do some shopping.

Eric, we’re in the Paradise Valley area of Phoenix. If we should run into an 
ongoing warranty hassle you’re totally right about distance. Since Feature 
Marketing is right here, that is a plus for me. But I don’t mind driving around 
a bit. (Where are you?)

Eric, re Red 7: I haven’t heard much mention of them since they started some 20 
years ago, but yes, I see redsevenlinux.com: they seem to still be in business, 
and it looks like a good business model. But either their site has been owned, 
or they lack focus: Computer solutions are mixed with a lame porn story and 
big-cock talk on their front page. Looks a tad unstable.

I think Somebody off-line mentioned Data Doctors so I dropped in there. The 
main guy at that store gave me a friendly lecture on using computers that 
someone else got rid of, like trade-in cars at a dealership. I spent years 
running second hand cars into the ground, so that isn’t too convincing to me; 
but I have also bought one used PC from a repair shop that turned out to be a 
total lemon, and I wasted money on a new battery that didn’t help, so that 
carries some weight.

Thanks,
Victor


On 20180614, at 15:15, Carruth, Rusty  wrote:

Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.  (Disclaimer - I have 16G on both my 
personal laptop and my work laptop.  I used to have 4G on my work laptop, bah 
humbug)
 
My wife’s laptop has 4G, and has to kill off firefox every once in a while due 
to its apparent memory leak.  However, I’ve got 16 G at work running windows, 
and every few days *I* have to kill my firefox because it is taking around 14G 
(or at least guess which window is causing the leak)….
 
(Ok, yes, I’m a heavy user.  I confess.  (Is there a group for that?) )
 
We’re using Lenovo at work, and a T410 worked fine (as fine as it can with only 
4G - but all the hardware worked ok as I remember).  4G max RAM, I think, but I 
think there’s a T420 or something that takes more RAM.
 
I’ve had relatively good luck in the old days with Dell (Inspiron 8000 or 
something like that?), but YMMV. 
 
The only laptops I’ve got personal experience that I know work fine (again, 
ignoring memory) are:
 
My wife’s, model and so forth forgotten.  If you care I can go look
 
My personal Alienware, which is WAY outside the price range.  The only real 
issue with it was:  you need a recent distro (Mint 17 didn’t work well, Mint 18 
worked fine).
 
Lenovo ThinkPad T410.  Used with an older Mint, as 

backups (was RE: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?)

[Carruth, Rusty]

And, unless you have verified that the backup is usable, then you do not have a 
backup!

(The time to discover that your backup wasn't happening is NOT when you need 
it!)

Rusty, who is about to embark on a backup scheme at home which will use 2x4TB 
drives hooked to an old little cheapo computer that will wake up at night and 
do the deed...)

-Original Message-

...lots of good stuff - deleted!  (how rude!)

Just back up early and often.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28

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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 03:29:42 -0700
trent shipley  wrote:


> 4. Sometimes it can be reasonable, and even cost effective, to buy
> cheap hardware and treat it as disposable.

That works if he/she's using fairly lightweight apps, and if he/she is
diligent about backup, because I'm pretty sure a $200 will break before
its scheduled replacement time.

About lightweight apps: Using Openbox with Suckless Tools' dmenu to run
applications, and something like xxxterm/xombrero, qupzilla, or surf
instead of Chromium or Firefox goes a long way to making a 2006 laptop
with 2GB RAM work well. I know, one of my laptops is a 2006 2GB box,
and it's pretty snappy.

To add to what Trent says, one advantage of really old hardware is it's
guaranteed not to have that evil UEFI/secureboot, and its hardware
quirks will have long ago been solved by Linux driver programmers.

Just back up early and often.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Mark Phillips]

Just to add my 2 cents to the discussion.

I would suggest finding out what our piano tuner friend uses in way of
applications on this computer for his business. Then size the computer
around his needs, as opposed to a fixed dollar amount. I agree that the
budget is important and real, but one should come at this problem from the
standpoint of his computing needs, and then make the necessary trade offs
to fit the machine into his budget.

Mark

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 8:39 AM,  wrote:

>
> If you subscribe to the Staples weekly ads you will find that occasionally
> they offer some really good deals on laptops for under $400.  Especially
> around back to school, black Friday, and Christmas.  I think Office Depot /
> Office Max has the same types of ads.
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-06-16 08:19, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote:
>
>> Here is what we know:
>>
>> ---
>> A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
>>   Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light
>> browsing.
>>
>> His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.
>> He would like the provider to be established with a decent reputation,
>> whether the computer is new or refurbished.
>>
>> His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .
>> ---
>>
>> If he is not doing any image manipulation and does not edit videos on
>> this machine then a cheap laptop would do it.  i3 or maybe an old duo
>> and 2 or more gigs of ram would make it happen.
>>
>> What we do not know is why this person has a constraint of $400 and
>> would like to get down to $200.  Maybe this person is semi-retired and
>> does just enough piano tuning to supplement his income.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2018-06-15 22:31, Steve Litt wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:15:12 +
>>> "Carruth, Rusty"  wrote:
>>>
>>> Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.

>>>
>>> I can get 4GB RAM to walk and talk if I use Openbox and equivalently
>>> svelt software. Firefox and Nautilus need not apply.
>>>
>>> But the OP is asking about a business computer, and in my opinion he
>>> should buy an amount of RAM that will be useful 3 years from now. I'd
>>> call that 16GB.
>>>
>>> SteveT
>>>
>>> Steve Litt
>>> June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
>>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
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>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[techlists]

If you subscribe to the Staples weekly ads you will find that 
occasionally they offer some really good deals on laptops for under 
$400.  Especially around back to school, black Friday, and Christmas.  I 
think Office Depot / Office Max has the same types of ads.




On 2018-06-16 08:19, techli...@phpcoderusa.com wrote:

Here is what we know:

---
A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
  Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light 
browsing.


His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.
He would like the provider to be established with a decent reputation,
whether the computer is new or refurbished.

His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .
---

If he is not doing any image manipulation and does not edit videos on
this machine then a cheap laptop would do it.  i3 or maybe an old duo
and 2 or more gigs of ram would make it happen.

What we do not know is why this person has a constraint of $400 and
would like to get down to $200.  Maybe this person is semi-retired and
does just enough piano tuning to supplement his income.














On 2018-06-15 22:31, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:15:12 +
"Carruth, Rusty"  wrote:


Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.


I can get 4GB RAM to walk and talk if I use Openbox and equivalently
svelt software. Firefox and Nautilus need not apply.

But the OP is asking about a business computer, and in my opinion he
should buy an amount of RAM that will be useful 3 years from now. I'd
call that 16GB.

SteveT

Steve Litt
June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[techlists]

Here is what we know:

---
A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
  Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light 
browsing.


His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.
He would like the provider to be established with a decent reputation, 
whether the computer is new or refurbished.


His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .
---

If he is not doing any image manipulation and does not edit videos on 
this machine then a cheap laptop would do it.  i3 or maybe an old duo 
and 2 or more gigs of ram would make it happen.


What we do not know is why this person has a constraint of $400 and 
would like to get down to $200.  Maybe this person is semi-retired and 
does just enough piano tuning to supplement his income.















On 2018-06-15 22:31, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:15:12 +
"Carruth, Rusty"  wrote:


Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.


I can get 4GB RAM to walk and talk if I use Openbox and equivalently
svelt software. Firefox and Nautilus need not apply.

But the OP is asking about a business computer, and in my opinion he
should buy an amount of RAM that will be useful 3 years from now. I'd
call that 16GB.

SteveT

Steve Litt
June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Michael]

find out what ASU does with their old hardware buy some and spruce it up

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 6:29 AM, trent shipley 
wrote:

> 1. It's a business computer. Most businesses think of IT as a cost, not a
> strategic advantage. Most business that treat IT as a cost center.
>
> 2. Presumably, in budgeting $400 for a machine, and wanting to spend $200
> on a machine, the customer is severely constrained in initial cost of
> ownership.
>
> 3. There's no point to worrying about total cost of ownership or longevity
> if you can't meet the initial cost of ownership hurdle.
>
> 4. Sometimes it can be reasonable, and even cost effective, to buy cheap
> hardware and treat it as disposable.
>
> Trent.
>
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 1:39 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>
>> I wouldn’t stop there. Some machines can now support up to 32 GB of ram.
>> Sure, that may seem insanely expensive now, but as time goes on, you will
>> still have more than enough machine to handle whatever the world throws at
>> it. It’s like the 2 10 year old desktop machines I have here. They were top
>> end gaming machines in 2008 with 32 GB of ram, 500 GB storage and Nvidia
>> cards in the GT 9xxx series. Even today with only 2 cpu cores running at
>> 3.02 Ghz each, those machines are still beastly. In fact, I did a game test
>> with one of the room mates machines (he likes world of tanks but can’t get
>> his newer machines to perform all that well) and pitted it against both of
>> mine. Frankly, he want s mine (but doesn’t have the funds).
>>
>> Btw, the motherboards on these machines are as follows:
>> 1. Intel core2 duo cpu on an ASUS IL0-9 pro with 32 GB ram (DDR3 800 Mhz
>> FSB) and 500 GB HDD with a 32 GB Nvidia GT-9600 video card.
>>
>> 2. AMD X2 CPU running at 3 Ghz with 32 GB ram (same as above) on a Tyan
>> Motherboard using a Nvidia 9800-GTX 32 GB card. Also has 500 GB storage.
>>
>> His machine?
>> An intel i5 4 core CPU (2.66 Ghz), 4 GB ram, 256 GB HDD and the built in
>> intel graphics using shared ram. It’s your basic E-machine brand.
>>
>> So, older isn’t necessarily a bad thing if it is built up right.
>>
>> So, if you are going to acquire a laptop, make it as future proof as you
>> can. Sure, you will pay through the nose now, but will still have a beast
>> later. :)
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:31 PM, Steve Litt 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:15:12 +
>> > "Carruth, Rusty"  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.
>> >
>> > I can get 4GB RAM to walk and talk if I use Openbox and equivalently
>> > svelt software. Firefox and Nautilus need not apply.
>> >
>> > But the OP is asking about a business computer, and in my opinion he
>> > should buy an amount of RAM that will be useful 3 years from now. I'd
>> > call that 16GB.
>> >
>> > SteveT
>> >
>> > Steve Litt
>> > June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
>> > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>> >
>> >
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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[trent shipley]

1. It's a business computer. Most businesses think of IT as a cost, not a
strategic advantage. Most business that treat IT as a cost center.

2. Presumably, in budgeting $400 for a machine, and wanting to spend $200
on a machine, the customer is severely constrained in initial cost of
ownership.

3. There's no point to worrying about total cost of ownership or longevity
if you can't meet the initial cost of ownership hurdle.

4. Sometimes it can be reasonable, and even cost effective, to buy cheap
hardware and treat it as disposable.

Trent.

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 1:39 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:

> I wouldn’t stop there. Some machines can now support up to 32 GB of ram.
> Sure, that may seem insanely expensive now, but as time goes on, you will
> still have more than enough machine to handle whatever the world throws at
> it. It’s like the 2 10 year old desktop machines I have here. They were top
> end gaming machines in 2008 with 32 GB of ram, 500 GB storage and Nvidia
> cards in the GT 9xxx series. Even today with only 2 cpu cores running at
> 3.02 Ghz each, those machines are still beastly. In fact, I did a game test
> with one of the room mates machines (he likes world of tanks but can’t get
> his newer machines to perform all that well) and pitted it against both of
> mine. Frankly, he want s mine (but doesn’t have the funds).
>
> Btw, the motherboards on these machines are as follows:
> 1. Intel core2 duo cpu on an ASUS IL0-9 pro with 32 GB ram (DDR3 800 Mhz
> FSB) and 500 GB HDD with a 32 GB Nvidia GT-9600 video card.
>
> 2. AMD X2 CPU running at 3 Ghz with 32 GB ram (same as above) on a Tyan
> Motherboard using a Nvidia 9800-GTX 32 GB card. Also has 500 GB storage.
>
> His machine?
> An intel i5 4 core CPU (2.66 Ghz), 4 GB ram, 256 GB HDD and the built in
> intel graphics using shared ram. It’s your basic E-machine brand.
>
> So, older isn’t necessarily a bad thing if it is built up right.
>
> So, if you are going to acquire a laptop, make it as future proof as you
> can. Sure, you will pay through the nose now, but will still have a beast
> later. :)
>
> -Eric
>
>
> > On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:31 PM, Steve Litt 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:15:12 +
> > "Carruth, Rusty"  wrote:
> >
> >> Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.
> >
> > I can get 4GB RAM to walk and talk if I use Openbox and equivalently
> > svelt software. Firefox and Nautilus need not apply.
> >
> > But the OP is asking about a business computer, and in my opinion he
> > should buy an amount of RAM that will be useful 3 years from now. I'd
> > call that 16GB.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> > June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> >
> >
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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Eric Oyen]

I wouldn’t stop there. Some machines can now support up to 32 GB of ram. Sure, 
that may seem insanely expensive now, but as time goes on, you will still have 
more than enough machine to handle whatever the world throws at it. It’s like 
the 2 10 year old desktop machines I have here. They were top end gaming 
machines in 2008 with 32 GB of ram, 500 GB storage and Nvidia cards in the GT 
9xxx series. Even today with only 2 cpu cores running at 3.02 Ghz each, those 
machines are still beastly. In fact, I did a game test with one of the room 
mates machines (he likes world of tanks but can’t get his newer machines to 
perform all that well) and pitted it against both of mine. Frankly, he want s 
mine (but doesn’t have the funds).

Btw, the motherboards on these machines are as follows:
1. Intel core2 duo cpu on an ASUS IL0-9 pro with 32 GB ram (DDR3 800 Mhz FSB) 
and 500 GB HDD with a 32 GB Nvidia GT-9600 video card.

2. AMD X2 CPU running at 3 Ghz with 32 GB ram (same as above) on a Tyan 
Motherboard using a Nvidia 9800-GTX 32 GB card. Also has 500 GB storage.

His machine?
An intel i5 4 core CPU (2.66 Ghz), 4 GB ram, 256 GB HDD and the built in intel 
graphics using shared ram. It’s your basic E-machine brand.

So, older isn’t necessarily a bad thing if it is built up right.

So, if you are going to acquire a laptop, make it as future proof as you can. 
Sure, you will pay through the nose now, but will still have a beast later. :)

-Eric


> On Jun 15, 2018, at 10:31 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:15:12 +
> "Carruth, Rusty"  wrote:
> 
>> Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.  
> 
> I can get 4GB RAM to walk and talk if I use Openbox and equivalently
> svelt software. Firefox and Nautilus need not apply.
> 
> But the OP is asking about a business computer, and in my opinion he
> should buy an amount of RAM that will be useful 3 years from now. I'd
> call that 16GB.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> 
> 
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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:15:12 +
"Carruth, Rusty"  wrote:

> Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.  

I can get 4GB RAM to walk and talk if I use Openbox and equivalently
svelt software. Firefox and Nautilus need not apply.

But the OP is asking about a business computer, and in my opinion he
should buy an amount of RAM that will be useful 3 years from now. I'd
call that 16GB.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 14:58:56 -0700
Victor Odhner  wrote:


> His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.

The preceding sentence conflicts with the following:

> His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .

In my opinion, as someone in business since 1982 and whose business
depended on a computer since 1987, you buy something well
constructed, expected to last 3 years without failure, with plenty of
muscle to do what your business needs now and what your business will
need as time goes on.

And don't forget an excellent backup system, and back up early and
often. I use a home-brew Rsync backup system pulled from a backup
server,that can write offsites to Blu-Ray, which I've tested for years
and found reliable when good media is bought and stored in shade and
climate control.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Matt Graham]

On 2018-06-14 14:58, Victor Odhner wrote:

A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light 
browsing.

His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .


4G RAM will probably be fine for this.  My old laptop (Thinkpad E530) 
has 4G and handles all those things pretty well.



REFURBISH? In past discussions here, I’ve seen references in the past
of a good refurb provider in town.


The first 4 IBM Thinkpads I had were refurbished, and they worked fine. 
Why would the seller need to be local?  If the hardware dies, your 
options are very limited in most cases no matter where the seller is.  
This means that you have to have reasonably tough hardware, which might 
be more difficult at $200.



CHROMEBOOK?


No.

Things have gotten a lot better wrt Linux support on laptops.  Anything 
over a year old will probably just work, and if you're looking for 
cheap/refurb, it'll be old.  Most wireless networking requires firmware 
to be loaded before it works, so the initial install may require a wired 
network connection.  I'm biased towards IBM myself, because installing 
and configuring them has always been easy and they have Trackpoints.  If 
I wasn't going on vacation starting Tuesday, I'd sell this guy my old 
laptop for cheap.  (Not enough time to get a new Thinkpad delivered 
before I leave.)


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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Phil Waclawski]

You can also call up Feature Marketing. They sometimes have a good
collection of used refurbished laptops. They can even add an SSD and RAM if
you don't want to do it yourself. But call, the website is never up to date.
Phil W

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Victor Odhner  wrote:

> A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
>   Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light
> browsing.
>
> His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.
> He would like the provider to be established with a decent reputation,
> whether the computer is new or refurbished.
>
> His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .
>
> *Refurbish?* In past discussions here, I’ve seen references in the past
> of a good refurb provider in town. How well established are they, what’s
> their batting average?
>
> *New?* I see:
>
>  At Amazon:
> *Dell Inspiron at Amazon for $205, 11.6" HD Celeron N3060,
> 4GB RAM32 eMMC HDD.
> *ASUS VivoBook E203NA-YS03 $199, 11.6” Featherweight design
> Intel Dual-Core Celeron N3350 2.4GHz processor,
> 4GB DDR3 RAM, 64GB EMMC Storage, App based Windows 10 S
>
> At Fry’s Electronics:
> * HP 14-ax030nr, 14" Stream Laptop With Intel Celeron N3060 Processor,
> 4GB Memory, 64GB eMMC and Windows 10
>
> *Chromebook?* I see Chromebooks under $250.
> * Scrub & convert to Linux?
> * USB ports to run a printer and external backup disk?
> * Storage to run Libre writer + mail client + light surfing?
>
> He doesn’t want to entrust all his data to Google, and is happy with Linux.
>
> Any specific suggestions would be very welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Victor
>
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Carruth, Rusty]

Personally, 4G is not QUITE enough RAM.  (Disclaimer - I have 16G on both my 
personal laptop and my work laptop.  I used to have 4G on my work laptop, bah 
humbug)

My wife’s laptop has 4G, and has to kill off firefox every once in a while due 
to its apparent memory leak.  However, I’ve got 16 G at work running windows, 
and every few days *I* have to kill my firefox because it is taking around 14G 
(or at least guess which window is causing the leak)….

(Ok, yes, I’m a heavy user.  I confess.  (Is there a group for that?) )

We’re using Lenovo at work, and a T410 worked fine (as fine as it can with only 
4G - but all the hardware worked ok as I remember).  4G max RAM, I think, but I 
think there’s a T420 or something that takes more RAM.

I’ve had relatively good luck in the old days with Dell (Inspiron 8000 or 
something like that?), but YMMV.

The only laptops I’ve got personal experience that I know work fine (again, 
ignoring memory) are:

My wife’s, model and so forth forgotten.  If you care I can go look

My personal Alienware, which is WAY outside the price range.  The only real 
issue with it was:  you need a recent distro (Mint 17 didn’t work well, Mint 18 
worked fine).

Lenovo ThinkPad T410.  Used with an older Mint, as I remember everything worked.

I just realized that I don’t think I’ve run Linux on my ThinkPad, so ‘never 
mind’ on that one, sorry.



Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 2:59 PM
To: Main PLUG discussion list
Subject: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
  Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light browsing.

His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.
He would like the provider to be established with a decent reputation, whether 
the computer is new or refurbished.

His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .

Refurbish? In past discussions here, I’ve seen references in the past of a good 
refurb provider in town. How well established are they, what’s their batting 
average?

New? I see:

 At Amazon:
*Dell Inspiron at Amazon for $205, 11.6" HD Celeron N3060,
4GB RAM32 eMMC HDD.
*ASUS VivoBook E203NA-YS03 $199, 11.6” Featherweight design
Intel Dual-Core Celeron N3350 2.4GHz processor,
4GB DDR3 RAM, 64GB EMMC Storage, App based Windows 10 S

At Fry’s Electronics:
* HP 14-ax030nr, 14" Stream Laptop With Intel Celeron N3060 Processor,
4GB Memory, 64GB eMMC and Windows 10

Chromebook? I see Chromebooks under $250.
* Scrub & convert to Linux?
* USB ports to run a printer and external backup disk?
* Storage to run Libre writer + mail client + light surfing?

He doesn’t want to entrust all his data to Google, and is happy with Linux.

Any specific suggestions would be very welcome.

Thanks,
Victor





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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Stephen Partington]

You can look up neverware (company name) and they have an installable
chrome OS that can be installed pretty much anyplace. so you can take that
old laptop and turn it into a remarkably useful chromebook.

but generally most companies put underpowered hardware into their
chromebooks.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 4:26 PM, trent shipley 
wrote:

> Unless you want to get a high end Chromebook they have minimal onboard
> storage and are designed to be integrated into Google's cloud. As long as
> he has internet access (say through a smart phone) he could use Google Docs
> or MS Office online.  My impression of the Chromebook's printing prowess is
> that it is not well developed.
>
> I bounce between thinking of my low end Chromebook as a cool computing
> appliance that does about 80% of what I want to do, and feeling frustrated
> with the Chromebook toy for not doing that other 20%, which is also mission
> critical.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:49 PM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>
>> You could always try Red 7. Not sure they are still around, but worth
>> looking for if they are.
>>
>> What area of the valley are you in? That will make the difference in
>> where to go travel wise.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Victor Odhner  wrote:
>>
>> A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
>>   Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light
>> browsing.
>>
>> His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.
>> He would like the provider to be established with a decent reputation,
>> whether the computer is new or refurbished.
>>
>> His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .
>>
>> *Refurbish?* In past discussions here, I’ve seen references in the past
>> of a good refurb provider in town. How well established are they, what’s
>> their batting average?
>>
>> *New?* I see:
>>
>>  At Amazon:
>> *Dell Inspiron at Amazon for $205, 11.6" HD Celeron N3060,
>> 4GB RAM32 eMMC HDD.
>> *ASUS VivoBook E203NA-YS03 $199, 11.6” Featherweight design
>> Intel Dual-Core Celeron N3350 2.4GHz processor,
>> 4GB DDR3 RAM, 64GB EMMC Storage, App based Windows 10 S
>>
>> At Fry’s Electronics:
>> * HP 14-ax030nr, 14" Stream Laptop With Intel Celeron N3060 Processor,
>> 4GB Memory, 64GB eMMC and Windows 10
>>
>> *Chromebook?* I see Chromebooks under $250.
>> * Scrub & convert to Linux?
>> * USB ports to run a printer and external backup disk?
>> * Storage to run Libre writer + mail client + light surfing?
>>
>> He doesn’t want to entrust all his data to Google, and is happy with
>> Linux.
>>
>> Any specific suggestions would be very welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Victor
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[trent shipley]

Unless you want to get a high end Chromebook they have minimal onboard
storage and are designed to be integrated into Google's cloud. As long as
he has internet access (say through a smart phone) he could use Google Docs
or MS Office online.  My impression of the Chromebook's printing prowess is
that it is not well developed.

I bounce between thinking of my low end Chromebook as a cool computing
appliance that does about 80% of what I want to do, and feeling frustrated
with the Chromebook toy for not doing that other 20%, which is also mission
critical.


On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:49 PM Eric Oyen  wrote:

> You could always try Red 7. Not sure they are still around, but worth
> looking for if they are.
>
> What area of the valley are you in? That will make the difference in where
> to go travel wise.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2018, at 2:58 PM, Victor Odhner  wrote:
>
> A friend needs a cheap Linux laptop for light duty business work:
>   Libre Office, printing via USB connection, WIFI, email, and light
> browsing.
>
> His business (piano tuning) hangs on this.
> He would like the provider to be established with a decent reputation,
> whether the computer is new or refurbished.
>
> His cap is $400 but he would prefer closer to $200 . . .
>
> *Refurbish?* In past discussions here, I’ve seen references in the past
> of a good refurb provider in town. How well established are they, what’s
> their batting average?
>
> *New?* I see:
>
>  At Amazon:
> *Dell Inspiron at Amazon for $205, 11.6" HD Celeron N3060,
> 4GB RAM32 eMMC HDD.
> *ASUS VivoBook E203NA-YS03 $199, 11.6” Featherweight design
> Intel Dual-Core Celeron N3350 2.4GHz processor,
> 4GB DDR3 RAM, 64GB EMMC Storage, App based Windows 10 S
>
> At Fry’s Electronics:
> * HP 14-ax030nr, 14" Stream Laptop With Intel Celeron N3060 Processor,
> 4GB Memory, 64GB eMMC and Windows 10
>
> *Chromebook?* I see Chromebooks under $250.
> * Scrub & convert to Linux?
> * USB ports to run a printer and external backup disk?
> * Storage to run Libre writer + mail client + light surfing?
>
> He doesn’t want to entrust all his data to Google, and is happy with Linux.
>
> Any specific suggestions would be very welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Victor
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Cheap new Linux laptop advice?

[Stephen Partington]

In this case I would look up older i5 Latitude or thinkpad machines. they
will fit your price range, maintain decent performance (i5/i7). and the
thinkpad/latitude machines are built to take a fair amount of abuse.
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