Re: Automount in Gnome

[Dazed_75]

log in twice.  Once as a user that gets the automount and once as a user
that does not.  For each user, open a terminal and issue the command
"groups".  Compare the list of groups to see what additional groups the user
that gets automount has.  I am betting that one of them is plugdev or cdrom
or something like that.  Probably all you need to do is add the
NON-automount user to that group.

If you were on ubuntu, I would tell you to go to the Administration Menu,
select Users and Groups and make sure the entry for (something like)
Automatically Use Removable Devices is checked.  But you are on Arch Linux
so I have no idea what such utility you might have.

Dazed_75

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Steve Holmes wrote:

> When I do startx from root or any other user, for that matter, I get
> automatically logged in as that user.  So I didn't think it possible to
> startx from root and login later as someone else.  But your explanation
> about root permissions makes sense.
>
> Like I say, my expertese of gnome and its configurations is very weak to
> say the least.  Gnome is almost like another distribution like
> Slackware, Arch, Debian, etc.  There's a lot to learn there to fully
> understand how it works and how to fix things.  Since I started gdm from
> a root console and leave it running as a daemon, I've been able to auto
> mount stuff and the directories actually get the right permissions and
> user ownership too.  So I guess I've got as much as I can expect from
> this.  I just wondered though because I had been able to do this from a
> startx sesion on prior distros and past versions.  So maybe something
> got tightened up here or something.
>
> On 08/29/2009 12:20 AM, Bob Elzer wrote:
> > I'm reading this late, so if it was already answered sorry.
> >
> > I think you answered your own question. You say you are running startx as
> a
> > normal user, and then it doesn't work unless you log in as root. Or it
> works
> > when you start gdm in a root console.
> >
> > Something requires root to make automount work, so for instance if you
> had
> > the gui start in the inittab, then root would start what it needed to.
> >
> > Something that needs root doesn't get it when you run startx as a regular
> > user.
> >
> > Try running startx from root, and login as a regular user and see if that
> > works.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> > [mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of
> Steve
> > Holmes
> > Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 1:43 AM
> > To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> > Subject: Re: Automount in Gnome
> >
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: RIPEMD160
> >
> > I built a new "normal" user and tried it there and got the same results
> as I
> > do with my original normal user.
> >
> > Now I need to provide some more details because I found a solution to the
> > problem so it seems.  I usually like to get into gnome by typing 'startx'
> > from a native text console.  When I do it this way, I get the problems
> I've
> > been writing about for the past several days.  Now if I use 'gdm' by
> > starting it up from a root console and then login with the normal user, I
> > get automount functionality back.  I thought gnome would basically
> operate
> > the same way once someone is logged in regardless of how they got there.
> >
> > Like I said before, My knowledge of gnome internal is next to none. so
> don't
> > know much about really getting everything out of that environment yet.
>  It
> > does seem strange to me that normal users have to have logged in via gdm
> to
> > get this automount stuff to work but if root loggs in via startx then
> > automount works strait away.
> >
> > Sound confusing enough?
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 11:18:47AM -0700, Dazed_75 wrote:
> >> I apologize if you have already tried this (I deleted some of the
> >> earlier messages after reading them).  But have you tried creating
> >> another normal user and logging in as that user to see what happens
> >> when you plug the USB device in?
> >>
> >> If that works, the problem is fairly certain to be in some setting or
> >> conflict for your usual user only.  If it does not the problem is
> >> likely something to do with how "normal" users are defined in your
> >> system and their permissions to do things.  The ability for a normal
> >> user to use removable [and writeable] devices which would commonly be
> >> denied to normal users in some environments.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Steve Holmes
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> >>> Hash: RIPEMD160
> >>>
> >>> Yes I followed the suggestions and updated hal and udev from the
> >>> testing repo but still no go.  Strangely, it works fine if I login
> >>> as root but from my normal user account, it just goes as far as
> >>> finding and identifying the device but it won't mount to save its
> >>> life.  In fact, if I go to Computer, the

Re: Neighbors Leeching Off Your Wireless? "Try Upside-Down-Ternet"

[Jason Spatafore]

On Sat, 2009-08-29 at 20:16 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
> even funnier:  logging the neighbors web usage and showing the log to
> his wife.  lol.
> 
>  -jmz

LOL. That's just pure evil. But yes, that would be damned funny. 



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Re: Neighbors Leeching Off Your Wireless? "Try Upside-Down-Ternet"

[Joshua Zeidner]

 In case any devious devs would like to try their hand at this evil prank:

  http://www.ethereal.com/

 -jmz

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Jason
Spatafore wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-08-29 at 20:16 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>> even funnier:  logging the neighbors web usage and showing the log to
>> his wife.  lol.
>>
>>  -jmz
>
> LOL. That's just pure evil. But yes, that would be damned funny.
>
>
>
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Re: Neighbors Leeching Off Your Wireless? "Try Upside-Down-Ternet"

[kitepi...@kitepilot.com]

>>   http://www.ethereal.com/  ?
Nawh... 

I think you are talking about:
http://www.wireshark.org/
One of those fights...
:)
ET 

 

Joshua Zeidner writes: 

>  In case any devious devs would like to try their hand at this evil prank: 
> 
>   http://www.ethereal.com/ 
> 
>  -jmz 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Jason
> Spatafore wrote:
>> On Sat, 2009-08-29 at 20:16 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>>> even funnier:  logging the neighbors web usage and showing the log to
>>> his wife.  lol. 
>>>
>>>  -jmz
>>
>> LOL. That's just pure evil. But yes, that would be damned funny. 
>>
>> 
>>
>> ---
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Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Lisa Kachold]

"While the details are unknown, credible evidence indicates that
billions of everyday communications of ordinary Americans are swept up
by government computers and run through a process that includes both
data-mining and review of content, to try to figure out whether any of
us were involved in illegal or terrorist-related activity. That means
that even the most personal and private of our electronic
communications–between doctors and patients, between husbands and
wives, or between children and parents–are subject to review by
computer algorithms programmed by government bureaucrats or by the
bureaucrats themselves. (Cindy Cohn, “Lawless Surveillance,
Warrantless Rationales,” American Constitution Society, August 17,
2009)

Reference:  
http://fromthewilderness.wordpress.com/2009/08/30/obama-administration-seeks-emergency-control-of-the-internet/

This bill includes a provision for government mandated certification
for professional security or systems people.

While government mandated certification might be required (for
government networks); I am not afraid that passing the requirement
will be difficult.
No licensing has ever been hard.

Controls on private industry at a licensing level from government
simply dumb down the
private sector technical standards who somehow suddenly think their
open ended liability has been handled by triangulation.

While PCI compliance regulation was certainly finally required, a
licensing requirement for individuals working on systems will actually
thwarth evolution toward real secure systems when clearly a quarterly
system SCAN for technical proof of PCI and HIPPA compliance is
indicated (just like peanut processing plants are required to be
tested for salmonella).  Should America continue to hire
Persian/Iranian, East Indian and Pakistan "IT professionals" at low
low wages, the licensing might make sense, however how does one
determine IT terrorism from abject greed or uneduation?  If one can
pass a trivial government licensing test, then fails to provide
technical due dilligence because of corporate management, is that a
political agenda?  Let the private industry determine
technical/professional level required for their engineers by
financial/fiscal policy, like they did creating security issues not
paying hourly wages sufficient to the work required, not listening to
their technical security and development staffs recommendations.

The government will go ahead with it's control of private Internet
visa a vi this bill (or another with similar provisions) since this
will allow the real agenda of tapping various large nets (MAE-WEST,
Akamai Technologies) for packet traffic, which are fed into analysis
engines on the basis of known risk criteria as part of DHS/NSA
international agenda (that is without borders with regards to Internet
packets).

Some level of this bill is required, and will happen.  I, unlike my
parents, do not fear information, since I don't ever do anything that
would be flagged into a database that
would bring negative consequences.  I expect that misuse of secret
information, in human hands (read government) will continue until
humans evolve beyond that, or develop systems to ensure protection
(which ironically will start with NSA/DHS information technology at a
governmental level).

Disclaimer: This is a technical ethics discussion, let's keep ON
SUBJECT related to IT here.
-- 
(623)239-3392
(503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com
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RE: OT: Need a new laptop ?

[Bob Elzer]

 

http://www.itworld.com/government/75885/fbi-investigating-laptops-sent-us-go
vernors  
 
Correct link, unless Outlook breaks it again.
 
www.itworld.com/government/75885/fbi-investigating-laptops-sent-us-governors
 
 


  _  

From: plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
[mailto:plug-discuss-boun...@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Marco
Savo
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:13 PM
To: Main PLUG discussion list
Subject: Re: OT: Need a new laptop ?


The link is broken


On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Bob Elzer  wrote:



FBI investigating laptops sent to US governors

http://www.itworld.com/government/75885/fbi-investigating-laptops-sent-us-go
vernors

How do I get on the list for a new laptop :-)

We could just wipe them and install linux.

I'm declaring myself as Governor of 147th Dr.


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-- 
'The Magic Is In the Movement' 

Marco Savo
SW Engineer

882 East Glenn St.
Tucson, AZ 85719
+1 (520) 248-5681



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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jason Spatafore]

On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 09:53 -0700, Lisa Kachold wrote:
> "While the details are unknown, credible evidence indicates that
> billions of everyday communications of ordinary Americans are swept up
> by government computers and run through a process that includes both
> data-mining and review of content, to try to figure out whether any of
> us were involved in illegal or terrorist-related activity. That means
> that even the most personal and private of our electronic
> communications–between doctors and patients, between husbands and
> wives, or between children and parents–are subject to review by
> computer algorithms programmed by government bureaucrats or by the
> bureaucrats themselves. (Cindy Cohn, “Lawless Surveillance,
> Warrantless Rationales,” American Constitution Society, August 17,
> 2009)

Yes, analytics is becoming a very strong force in the market and will
continue to grow. Not only is the government monitoring your
conversations but also private corporations are monitoring your
activities. Turn off third party cookies in Firefox and you'll realize
how much is actually being watched on all the common pages. Have you
ever noticed your browser waiting for something from google-analytics to
finish downloading (say, an invisible GIF?) before a page is fully
loaded? 

Watching your emails is no different than watching your browser, and
your online posts. The good news is that there is no centralized
networking hubs that allow for all data to be analyzed due to the design
of the Internet and it's nuclear holocaust protections. (And monitoring
exit points outside our country is most-likely the goal of the USA's
involvement here.) 

What will happen is that everybody will move to https, the "secure web".
However, there will always be a way to crack and watch that and then
httpss (super secure) will be born...etc. It's a game...always being
played. 

As long as FUD can be played upon, people will be preyed upon. 

My opinion is simple...your government is just as scary as your
corporations. Both of them take the same actions with different
end-games. Governments spy for protection, corporations spy for profits.
Unfortunately, governments are paid for my corporations so you can see
how easily their goals are intertwined.

Ultimately, there is nothing to fear really. People should read the
short story my Marshall Brain called
"MANNA" (http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm). It's almost
"1984'ish" but shows how people need to learn to get the computer to
work *for* people, not people working for the computer. 

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Re: 2.6.31 kernel

[Technomage]

The problem here is that Linus (and a lot of others) have yet to fix 
some of the more pressing problems...:
1. take libata for example; it still doesn't work properly and support 
doe some sata drives is lacking at best.
2. Sound doesn't work by default in most installations anymore (you have 
to tweak the system settings
and in some cases, the hardware isn't properly supported)
3. even with the binary only globs from manufacturers like Nvidia or 
ATI, the display in X doesn't live up
to what is advertised most of the time (again, you have to fiddle 
with gpu timings, other settings in the
conf file, et...)

lastly, linux has the "good enough" mentality. put it into operation and 
fix the bugs later (which never happens
half the time)

Of course, we cannot DEMAND that the developers fix these problems (as 
they are unpaid, etc), but it
would help if they did.

Ryan Rix wrote:
> Jim March wrote:
>
>   
 To put things back on firm earth and on-topicness... Why on earth would
 
>> Linus even waste his time on trying to get this much memory addressed in
>> the kernel? What is the rational behind it, besides being a publicity
>> stunt?<<
>>
>> It ensures Linux maintains dominance in supercomputing, and yeah, that
>> IS a publicity stunt...but what's wrong with that as long as it
>> doesn't hurt lesser systems?
>> 
>
> I didn't say it was wrong at all. I just think it's a little unnecessary.
>
>   

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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Joshua Zeidner]

 It comes as no surprise that this is coming from Jay Rockefeller,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9xzXUQLuY

 -jmz

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote:
> "While the details are unknown, credible evidence indicates that
> billions of everyday communications of ordinary Americans are swept up
> by government computers and run through a process that includes both
> data-mining and review of content, to try to figure out whether any of
> us were involved in illegal or terrorist-related activity. That means
> that even the most personal and private of our electronic
> communications–between doctors and patients, between husbands and
> wives, or between children and parents–are subject to review by
> computer algorithms programmed by government bureaucrats or by the
> bureaucrats themselves. (Cindy Cohn, “Lawless Surveillance,
> Warrantless Rationales,” American Constitution Society, August 17,
> 2009)
>
> Reference:  
> http://fromthewilderness.wordpress.com/2009/08/30/obama-administration-seeks-emergency-control-of-the-internet/
>
> This bill includes a provision for government mandated certification
> for professional security or systems people.
>
> While government mandated certification might be required (for
> government networks); I am not afraid that passing the requirement
> will be difficult.
> No licensing has ever been hard.
>
> Controls on private industry at a licensing level from government
> simply dumb down the
> private sector technical standards who somehow suddenly think their
> open ended liability has been handled by triangulation.
>
> While PCI compliance regulation was certainly finally required, a
> licensing requirement for individuals working on systems will actually
> thwarth evolution toward real secure systems when clearly a quarterly
> system SCAN for technical proof of PCI and HIPPA compliance is
> indicated (just like peanut processing plants are required to be
> tested for salmonella).  Should America continue to hire
> Persian/Iranian, East Indian and Pakistan "IT professionals" at low
> low wages, the licensing might make sense, however how does one
> determine IT terrorism from abject greed or uneduation?  If one can
> pass a trivial government licensing test, then fails to provide
> technical due dilligence because of corporate management, is that a
> political agenda?  Let the private industry determine
> technical/professional level required for their engineers by
> financial/fiscal policy, like they did creating security issues not
> paying hourly wages sufficient to the work required, not listening to
> their technical security and development staffs recommendations.
>
> The government will go ahead with it's control of private Internet
> visa a vi this bill (or another with similar provisions) since this
> will allow the real agenda of tapping various large nets (MAE-WEST,
> Akamai Technologies) for packet traffic, which are fed into analysis
> engines on the basis of known risk criteria as part of DHS/NSA
> international agenda (that is without borders with regards to Internet
> packets).
>
> Some level of this bill is required, and will happen.  I, unlike my
> parents, do not fear information, since I don't ever do anything that
> would be flagged into a database that
> would bring negative consequences.  I expect that misuse of secret
> information, in human hands (read government) will continue until
> humans evolve beyond that, or develop systems to ensure protection
> (which ironically will start with NSA/DHS information technology at a
> governmental level).
>
> Disclaimer: This is a technical ethics discussion, let's keep ON
> SUBJECT related to IT here.
> --
> (623)239-3392
> (503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[keith smith]

Jason you say "Ultimately, there is nothing to fear really.".  There is 
everything to fear and it is illegal.

Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we were protected from this type of 
thing by giving us the Bill of Rights.

Until we read and understand the Frederalist Papers, the Declaration of 
Independence, and the Bill of Rights, we as a people will not know what a gift 
our founding fathers gave us and what power we really hold.

I submit to you that most of what the federal government is doing is 
unconstitutional.  This is based on reading the constitution and then reading 
the 10th Amendment. 

Freedom is not free.  At this point it might take 2 hours a week from every 
citizen to return us to our rightful place.  The cost will be mich higher in 
the future. 




Keith Smith


--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Jason Spatafore  wrote:

> From: Jason Spatafore 
> Subject: Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks 
> Emergency Control of the Internet
> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" 
> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 11:35 AM
> On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 09:53 -0700,
> Lisa Kachold wrote:
> > "While the details are unknown, credible evidence
> indicates that
> > billions of everyday communications of ordinary
> Americans are swept up
> > by government computers and run through a process that
> includes both
> > data-mining and review of content, to try to figure
> out whether any of
> > us were involved in illegal or terrorist-related
> activity. That means
> > that even the most personal and private of our
> electronic
> > communications–between doctors and patients, between
> husbands and
> > wives, or between children and parents–are subject
> to review by
> > computer algorithms programmed by government
> bureaucrats or by the
> > bureaucrats themselves. (Cindy Cohn, “Lawless
> Surveillance,
> > Warrantless Rationales,” American Constitution
> Society, August 17,
> > 2009)
> 
> Yes, analytics is becoming a very strong force in the
> market and will
> continue to grow. Not only is the government monitoring
> your
> conversations but also private corporations are monitoring
> your
> activities. Turn off third party cookies in Firefox and
> you'll realize
> how much is actually being watched on all the common pages.
> Have you
> ever noticed your browser waiting for something from
> google-analytics to
> finish downloading (say, an invisible GIF?) before a page
> is fully
> loaded? 
> 
> Watching your emails is no different than watching your
> browser, and
> your online posts. The good news is that there is no
> centralized
> networking hubs that allow for all data to be analyzed due
> to the design
> of the Internet and it's nuclear holocaust protections.
> (And monitoring
> exit points outside our country is most-likely the goal of
> the USA's
> involvement here.) 
> 
> What will happen is that everybody will move to https, the
> "secure web".
> However, there will always be a way to crack and watch that
> and then
> httpss (super secure) will be born...etc. It's a
> game...always being
> played. 
> 
> As long as FUD can be played upon, people will be preyed
> upon. 
> 
> My opinion is simple...your government is just as scary as
> your
> corporations. Both of them take the same actions with
> different
> end-games. Governments spy for protection, corporations spy
> for profits.
> Unfortunately, governments are paid for my corporations so
> you can see
> how easily their goals are intertwined.
> 
> Ultimately, there is nothing to fear really. People should
> read the
> short story my Marshall Brain called
> "MANNA" (http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm).
> It's almost
> "1984'ish" but shows how people need to learn to get the
> computer to
> work *for* people, not people working for the computer. 
> 
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail
> settings:
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss


  
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Re: 2.6.31 kernel

[Ryan Rix]

Technomage wrote:
[snip]
> 
> lastly, linux has the "good enough" mentality. put it into operation and
> fix the bugs later (which never happens
> half the time)

That's the entire idealogy of OSI tactics -- the bazaar over the cathedral.

> 
> Of course, we cannot DEMAND that the developers fix these problems (as
> they are unpaid, etc), but it
> would help if they did.

Most of the primary developers on the kernel, the guys who make the most 
patches, are employed by major GNU/Linux companies, as was recently 
discussed, here, slashdot and elsewhere.


-- 
Ryan Rix
(623)-826-0051

Fortune:
He who invents adages for others to peruse
takes along rowboat when going on cruise.

http://hackersramblings.wordpress.com | http://twitter.com/phrkonaleash
XMPP: phrkonale...@gmail.com  | MSN: phrkonale...@yahoo.com
AIM:  phrkonaleash| Yahoo: phrkonaleash
IRC:  phrkon...@irc.freenode.net/#srcedit,#teensonlinux,#plugaz and
  countless other FOSS channels.


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OT: Texai -- a knowledge-based [open source!] software project

[Mike Schwartz]

Mike Schwartz  This:
http://www.texai.org/blog/?page_id=44
seems interesting. I have not read (much of) it yet, but maybe I will,
later.--
Mike Schwartz
Glendale  AZ
schwa...@acm.org
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jason Spatafore]

On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 13:53 -0700, keith smith wrote:
> Jason you say "Ultimately, there is nothing to fear really.".  There
> is everything to fear and it is illegal.
> 
> Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we were protected from this
> type of thing by giving us the Bill of Rights.

As a government for the people, by the people, things do change. Our
forefather's gave us rights but we, the people, have changed those
rights over the years. Please do not be too focused on a 200 year old
Bill of Rights...things changed, and they were changed in the presence
of the people and were changed by the people. The government is *passing
a bill* for this...that is the proper procedure to make this happen.
Just because it's proposed doesn't mean it is already happening.

The president is asking for permission...it is up to us to grant it. 

Much of what the government is doing is *perfectly legal* according to
the laws. We, the people, just wonder how those laws got in place
sometimes because, well, we have jobs and lives to live.

And I'll tell you now...until I have the ability to directly vote on
every law directly (not representative), I will not rally, testify, or
otherwise engage in our system. I vote. That's the only thing I can
really do. I do not want to sell people on ideas and I do not care to
engage in politics as they are now. 

Give me my right to directly vote on EVERY SINGLE BILL that is going
through the Congress and I will engage. Until then, I snuff my nose at
the layers of bureaucracy and crap in our system. Give me my direct
say. 


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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jim March]

Yesterday I attended a court hearing that in my opinion, directly
relates to this thread.  Let me tell you about it.

At issue was the proposed destruction of paper ballots from a 2006
Pima County bond election that "smells fishy".  I won't go into all of
the details but...it doesn't look right.  The state attorney general
had recently grabbed these same ballots and hauled them up to Phoenix
to be hand counted.  In my opinion, that hand count was flawed in a
bunch of ways...I can even make a pretty good case that the hand count
was deliberately bungled.

So now the ballots are back under the control of the Pima County
treasurer's office, "sentenced to death" by a state law requiring
destruction of old ballots.

Lawyers for the Republican party took the lead in arguing in favor of
their destruction, stating that the legislature wanted to make sure
elections are not challenged outside of the sole challenge structure -
a five-day window after each election during which candidates or
parties can file challenges if they have reason to think the election
was flawed or fraudulent.

Lawyers for the Democratic and Libertarian parties argued otherwise.
They (and I) believe that despite the destruction law, basic fairness
says that at a minimum, political parties should be able to look at
those ballots.  Political parties in AZ are the independent oversight
for elections - not the public as in some states including California,
and not the candidates as in Tennessee and elsewhere.

The problem with the five-day challenge window is that in electronic
voting, it's not possible to do the analysis that quickly.  In fact,
the Democratic party filed suit in 2007 for electronic copies of the
raw data files in MS-Access format from that same 2006 election and
others.  We (despite being Libertarian I was the tech consultant on
the case) didn't get them until a year and a half later and when we
did, there was fishy-as-hell stuff in there.  No "smoking gun" but a
lot of suspicious stuff - like repeatedly reloading memory cards days
after the election, and a failure to make daily snapshots of the data
on election night and several days after.

So, the Democrats argued before Judge Harrington that their role in
election oversight found in AZ law means they need to have the ability
to really check out even old elections, especially when the same
election officials and staff from that election are in charge now.

The Republicans (and of course Pima County) claim that casting doubt
on past elections "undermines the public's perception of the system" -
they seriously argue that it's BETTER NOT TO KNOW about election
fraud.

So I'm in a situation where, in open court, my county's government is
saying that data found on my laptop, and on the server at the
Democratic party's attorney Bill Risner (which I'm sysop for) contains
data about election issues that it's better people not know about.

Now ask me again if you think I want the gov't poking around MY data.
Ask me why I'm using whole-disk-encryption, or why Bill Risner's law
office is protected by a heavy-duty hardware firewall I installed?

Some people DO criticize the government, with damned good reason.
When we do, we have to be able to protect our data from the government
or we're just not going to be effective.

Jim March
Member of the Board of Directors, http://blackboxvoting.org
Member, Pima County Election Integrity Commission approved by the Pima
County Board of Supervisors (Libertarian party appointee)
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Ryan Rix]

Jason Spatafore wrote:

> The president is asking for permission...it is up to us to grant it.
No, it's up to the people who the lobbyists elected.

-- 
Ryan Rix
(623)-826-0051

Fortune:
Respect is a rational process
-- McCoy, "The Galileo Seven", stardate 2822.3

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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[keith smith]

I would disagree.  Where in the Constitution and the 10th Amendment, does it 
say the Federal Government can do most of the things they do?  Such as be 
involved in education, health care, regulating guns, ETC.  It is not there.

The 10th Amendment : "The powers not delegated to the United States by the 
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States 
respectively, or to the people.".

The constitution provides a limited number of things the Federal Government can 
be involved in. It is the state and the people that have all the authority.

Even though law has been passed does not make it lawful. 




Keith Smith


--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Jason Spatafore  wrote:

> From: Jason Spatafore 
> Subject: Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks 
> Emergency Control of the Internet
> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" 
> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 3:11 PM
> On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 13:53 -0700,
> keith smith wrote:
> > Jason you say "Ultimately, there is nothing to fear
> really.".  There
> > is everything to fear and it is illegal.
> > 
> > Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we were
> protected from this
> > type of thing by giving us the Bill of Rights.
> 
> As a government for the people, by the people, things do
> change. Our
> forefather's gave us rights but we, the people, have
> changed those
> rights over the years. Please do not be too focused on a
> 200 year old
> Bill of Rights...things changed, and they were changed in
> the presence
> of the people and were changed by the people. The
> government is *passing
> a bill* for this...that is the proper procedure to make
> this happen.
> Just because it's proposed doesn't mean it is already
> happening.
> 
> The president is asking for permission...it is up to us to
> grant it. 
> 
> Much of what the government is doing is *perfectly legal*
> according to
> the laws. We, the people, just wonder how those laws got in
> place
> sometimes because, well, we have jobs and lives to live.
> 
> And I'll tell you now...until I have the ability to
> directly vote on
> every law directly (not representative), I will not rally,
> testify, or
> otherwise engage in our system. I vote. That's the only
> thing I can
> really do. I do not want to sell people on ideas and I do
> not care to
> engage in politics as they are now. 
> 
> Give me my right to directly vote on EVERY SINGLE BILL that
> is going
> through the Congress and I will engage. Until then, I snuff
> my nose at
> the layers of bureaucracy and crap in our system. Give me
> my direct
> say. 
> 
> 
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> settings:
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> 


  
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jason Spatafore]

On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 15:20 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:
> > The president is asking for permission...it is up to us to grant it.
> No, it's up to the people who the lobbyists elected.

*YOU* had a direct vote in their election to office and your vote was
just as meaningful as the lobbyists with equal weight. Again, we can say
it's corrupt all we want but *WE* do have a say. We do get to vote. And
we all know that every representative does not represent all their
constituents.

Until the representatives are removed...we will constantly struggle with
this so-called Democracy. Technology has finally caught up to where it
can be used for a direct Democratic country with lower costs than
running elections every two years. Now is the time to start
implementing.

And yes, my first vote is to eliminate paper ballots and bar people
without access to computers from elections. Sorry, a computer is
available almost everywhere you go. It's time to grow with the times and
move on.

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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Ryan Rix]

Jason Spatafore wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 15:20 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:
>> > The president is asking for permission...it is up to us to grant it.
>> No, it's up to the people who the lobbyists elected.
> 
> *YOU* had a direct vote in their election to office and your vote was
> just as meaningful as the lobbyists with equal weight. Again, we can say
> it's corrupt all we want but *WE* do have a say. We do get to vote. And
> we all know that every representative does not represent all their
> constituents.

Who pays for the advertisements and the money that gives the people who run 
for office the power and the footprint to actually get elected? Not me or 
anyone else; the lobbyists who want those people elected, the lobbyists who 
then control those who are in office.

Ryan 

> 
> Until the representatives are removed...we will constantly struggle with
> this so-called Democracy. Technology has finally caught up to where it
> can be used for a direct Democratic country with lower costs than
> running elections every two years. Now is the time to start
> implementing.
> 
> And yes, my first vote is to eliminate paper ballots and bar people
> without access to computers from elections. Sorry, a computer is
> available almost everywhere you go. It's time to grow with the times and
> move on.

How do you deal with the security implications/identity crises that computer 
based voting introduces?

-- 
Ryan Rix
(623)-826-0051

Fortune:
"Gee, Toto, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore."

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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jason Spatafore]

On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 15:25 -0700, keith smith wrote:
> The constitution provides a limited number of things the Federal
> Government can be involved in. It is the state and the people that
> have all the authority.

Give me direct vote on all laws that are presented to Congress. That is
all I ask. Until then, this conversation is pretty much over. It's going
to be a constant republican vs. democrat vs. independent debate that
constantly occurs every single day. 

Just give me my vote. Don't give the Senator or State Representative my
vote. Give *ME MY VOTE*. 

Until then, everything we say...every action we take, is just rhetorical
and wasteful to our entire society. 

If the people got to vote on national healthcare...it would have already
passed. If the people got to vote on legalizing tobacco sales, they
would be banned. If the people got to vote on legalizing marijuana, it
would still be illegal (by narrow margin). 

But the bottom line is that we don't get to vote. We have to figure out
the smoke screens and guess who the better candidate is. We shouldn't be
figuring out people and betting on them...we should be having our say
and moving on with our day. I propose every Thursday being voting
day..that way, we have our weekends to celebrate and mourn the
results. :) 

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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Lyle Tuttle]

At 03:55 PM 8/30/2009, Jason Spatafore  wrote:

snip, snip

Sorry, a computer is available almost everywhere you go. It's time 
to grow with the times and

move on.


Actually, we pay a tax (check your phone bills) to wire every library 
(and school) -- and anyone can go into the library and use their 
systems without cost..


lyle ---
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jason Spatafore]

On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 16:02 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:
> How do you deal with the security implications/identity crises that
> computer 
> based voting introduces?

The same way you deal with it with paper voting. You figure out who the
bad guys are and put them in jail. Identity theft is a real threat..but
it really is a minor threat to such a system as a whole. (Especially if
you keep the voting system only routable within the USA boundaries.)

>Who pays for the advertisements and the money that gives the people who
>run 
>for office the power and the footprint to actually get elected? Not me
>or 
>anyone else; the lobbyists who want those people elected, the lobbyists
>who 
>then control those who are in office.

You wouldn't need the elected officials after implementing my plan...so
that would also reduce the lobbyists. (You ban political items from
public airways and setup 3 TV and 3 radio stations across the country
that are political only discussions.)

By the way, I voted for Nader in this election. Yes, he lost...but I did
the right vote for who I wanted. I wasn't blinded by those lobbyists you
speak of. Sorry that I can't believe in the lobbyists corruption theory.
If you're looking for somebody to blame, blame the American people for
being a bunch of lazy jack asses when it comes to elections, not the
lobbyists. Now, of course, I won't succumb to the FUD behind "If people
are lazy now, how lazy do you think they'll be if they had a direct say"
tactic. I wouldn't be scared..because the involved people would rule the
country, and that is how it *should* be.

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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Lyle Tuttle]

A> On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 15:20 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:


Who pays for the advertisements and the money that gives the people who run
for office the power and the footprint to actually get elected? Not me or
anyone else;


Sorry Ryan, take a look:

http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/index.php

http://www.campaignfinancesite.org/giving.html

just to show a couple

lyle
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OT:Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Ryan Rix]

Jason Spatafore wrote:

> Sorry that I can't believe in the lobbyists corruption theory.
> If you're looking for somebody to blame, blame the American people for
> being a bunch of lazy jack asses when it comes to elections, not the
> lobbyists.

The lobbyists take advantage of said jack asses' laziness.

-- 
Ryan Rix
(623)-826-0051

Fortune:
Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
-- Eric Hoffer

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Re: OT:Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jason Spatafore]

On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 16:30 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:
> The lobbyists take advantage of said jack asses' laziness.

I can't disagree with that. But you gotta hit the root cause of a
problem, not just the middle man.

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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[keith smith]

Excellent insight!!  


Keith Smith


--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Jim March <1.jim.ma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Jim March <1.jim.ma...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks  
> Emergency Control of the Internet
> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" 
> Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 3:17 PM
> Yesterday I attended a court hearing
> that in my opinion, directly
> relates to this thread.  Let me tell you about it.
> 
> At issue was the proposed destruction of paper ballots from
> a 2006
> Pima County bond election that "smells fishy".  I
> won't go into all of
> the details but...it doesn't look right.  The state
> attorney general
> had recently grabbed these same ballots and hauled them up
> to Phoenix
> to be hand counted.  In my opinion, that hand count
> was flawed in a
> bunch of ways...I can even make a pretty good case that the
> hand count
> was deliberately bungled.
> 
> So now the ballots are back under the control of the Pima
> County
> treasurer's office, "sentenced to death" by a state law
> requiring
> destruction of old ballots.
> 
> Lawyers for the Republican party took the lead in arguing
> in favor of
> their destruction, stating that the legislature wanted to
> make sure
> elections are not challenged outside of the sole challenge
> structure -
> a five-day window after each election during which
> candidates or
> parties can file challenges if they have reason to think
> the election
> was flawed or fraudulent.
> 
> Lawyers for the Democratic and Libertarian parties argued
> otherwise.
> They (and I) believe that despite the destruction law,
> basic fairness
> says that at a minimum, political parties should be able to
> look at
> those ballots.  Political parties in AZ are the
> independent oversight
> for elections - not the public as in some states including
> California,
> and not the candidates as in Tennessee and elsewhere.
> 
> The problem with the five-day challenge window is that in
> electronic
> voting, it's not possible to do the analysis that
> quickly.  In fact,
> the Democratic party filed suit in 2007 for electronic
> copies of the
> raw data files in MS-Access format from that same 2006
> election and
> others.  We (despite being Libertarian I was the tech
> consultant on
> the case) didn't get them until a year and a half later and
> when we
> did, there was fishy-as-hell stuff in there.  No
> "smoking gun" but a
> lot of suspicious stuff - like repeatedly reloading memory
> cards days
> after the election, and a failure to make daily snapshots
> of the data
> on election night and several days after.
> 
> So, the Democrats argued before Judge Harrington that their
> role in
> election oversight found in AZ law means they need to have
> the ability
> to really check out even old elections, especially when the
> same
> election officials and staff from that election are in
> charge now.
> 
> The Republicans (and of course Pima County) claim that
> casting doubt
> on past elections "undermines the public's perception of
> the system" -
> they seriously argue that it's BETTER NOT TO KNOW about
> election
> fraud.
> 
> So I'm in a situation where, in open court, my county's
> government is
> saying that data found on my laptop, and on the server at
> the
> Democratic party's attorney Bill Risner (which I'm sysop
> for) contains
> data about election issues that it's better people not know
> about.
> 
> Now ask me again if you think I want the gov't poking
> around MY data.
> Ask me why I'm using whole-disk-encryption, or why Bill
> Risner's law
> office is protected by a heavy-duty hardware firewall I
> installed?
> 
> Some people DO criticize the government, with damned good
> reason.
> When we do, we have to be able to protect our data from the
> government
> or we're just not going to be effective.
> 
> Jim March
> Member of the Board of Directors, http://blackboxvoting.org
> Member, Pima County Election Integrity Commission approved
> by the Pima
> County Board of Supervisors (Libertarian party appointee)
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Re: OT:Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Lisa Kachold]

Why do we have TWO threads?

Who inserted the Re in the subject???

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Jason
Spatafore wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 16:30 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:
>> The lobbyists take advantage of said jack asses' laziness.
>
> I can't disagree with that. But you gotta hit the root cause of a
> problem, not just the middle man.
>
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Re: OT: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Ryan Rix]

I tried to label at as OT, guess I borked up.

Lisa Kachold wrote:

> Why do we have TWO threads?
> 
> Who inserted the Re in the subject???
> 
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Jason
> Spatafore wrote:
>> On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 16:30 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:
>>> The lobbyists take advantage of said jack asses' laziness.
>>
>> I can't disagree with that. But you gotta hit the root cause of a
>> problem, not just the middle man.
>>
>> ---
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>>
> 
> 
> 

-- 
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Fortune:
This login session: $13.76, but for you $11.88.

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Re: OT: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Lisa Kachold]

No,   I didn't notice it was right!

My Bad!  OT is fine!

Ryan, in case you didn't notice--there ARE NO RULES!

:)

On 8/30/09, Ryan Rix  wrote:
> I tried to label at as OT, guess I borked up.
>
> Lisa Kachold wrote:
>
>> Why do we have TWO threads?
>>
>> Who inserted the Re in the subject???
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Jason
>> Spatafore wrote:
>>> On Sun, 2009-08-30 at 16:30 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote:
 The lobbyists take advantage of said jack asses' laziness.
>>>
>>> I can't disagree with that. But you gotta hit the root cause of a
>>> problem, not just the middle man.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Ryan Rix
> (623)-826-0051
>
> Fortune:
> This login session: $13.76, but for you $11.88.
>
> http://hackersramblings.wordpress.com | http://twitter.com/phrkonaleash
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>   countless other FOSS channels.
>
>
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Re: OT: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[R P Herrold]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009, Lisa Kachold wrote:

> No,   I didn't notice it was right!
>
> My Bad!  OT is fine!
>
> Ryan, in case you didn't notice--there ARE NO RULES!

“If you are not one of us, you are one of them... They still 
live in a world that is based on rules; because of that, they 
are never going to be as strong or as fast as you can be.”

-- The Matrix
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Re: OT: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Jim]

Excellent logic!  I vote so its not my fault.

Voting is but one step we can take to make our government understand our 
desires and needs.

Just voting is like running a marathon by taking one step.

Jim
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Re: 2.6.31 kernel

[Technomage]

Ryan Rix wrote:
> Technomage wrote:
> [snip]
>   
>> lastly, linux has the "good enough" mentality. put it into operation and
>> fix the bugs later (which never happens
>> half the time)
>> 
>
> That's the entire idealogy of OSI tactics -- the bazaar over the cathedral.
>   
yeah, and its proving that its either not working very well, or there is 
a mix of both philosophies going on here.

>   
>> Of course, we cannot DEMAND that the developers fix these problems (as
>> they are unpaid, etc), but it
>> would help if they did.
>> 
>
> Most of the primary developers on the kernel, the guys who make the most 
> patches, are employed by major GNU/Linux companies, as was recently 
> discussed, here, slashdot and elsewhere.
>
>
>   
[/rant]
I had a long response all prepared for this, but suffice to say, its 
just not worth it. There's just too many things
that have gone wrong in the development chain to make the Linux based OS 
a viable use for me right now.
I can still experiment with it under vmware, but given recent 
difficulties with hardware (such as my sata HD's and
controllers) I cannot see using it other than in the capacity as an 
experiment to be run under a VM. Right now, its too
many bugs not being fixed and too may dev's saying "thats not my 
problem". I think the point I am striving
here for is this: we are in a "quantity over quality mentality" right 
now and this is biting us in the butt *hard*.
This needs to change (but getting the powers that be to listen seems 
impossible atm).

If anyone has any suggestions how we can modify the current mentality 
(and get those powers to listen to us)
I'm all ears. Frankly, I don't want to be stuck on windows (M$ has 
questionable business practices that
I don't feel comfortable with) and OS X (nice thought it may be) 
requires machines costing much more money than
I can ever possibly afford without some good paying job at my back

[rant/]




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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[James Lee Bell]

Jason Spatafore wrote:
> Until the representatives are removed...we will constantly struggle with
> this so-called Democracy. Technology has finally caught up to where it
> can be used for a direct Democratic country with lower costs than
> running elections every two years. Now is the time to start
> implementing.
I rarely get involved in these discussions, preferring to lurk, but this
is a very intriguing concept that *might* actually be feasible and
achievable. All we have to do is figure out how to accomplish absolutely
unhackable authentication without violating every right to privacy we
hold dear.  Anybody want to hack that up by next Thursday? :-)

> And yes, my first vote is to eliminate paper ballots and bar people
> without access to computers from elections. Sorry, a computer is
> available almost everywhere you go. It's time to grow with the times and
> move on.
I have to say I find this specific means-testing inappropriate just
considering simple demographics. Have we even broken the 50% threshold
of our eligible-to-vote citizens that could have access beyond dial-up?
Hey, you want to computerize (*securely*) the collection of votes in
such a way that folks in "flyover country (/sarcasm)" get to use the
mechanism without owning the device and infrastructure, and without the
yearly trip to Bethlehem, I'm right there with you. Give it 25 years,
and maybe every citizen will have some level of computing device to
participate. Until then...

Just to take a philosophical hitch that'll probably generate a reaction
to put me back in lurk mode, I absolutely think there should be a simple
means test to earn voting rights: for the government entity in which you
are about to vote (fed, state, city), have you paid taxes to that entity
in x% of your eligible voting life (18+)? (asbestos underwear engaged :-)).
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Lisa Kachold]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, James Lee Bell wrote:
> Jason Spatafore wrote:
>> Until the representatives are removed...we will constantly struggle with
>> this so-called Democracy. Technology has finally caught up to where it
>> can be used for a direct Democratic country with lower costs than
>> running elections every two years. Now is the time to start
>> implementing.
> I rarely get involved in these discussions, preferring to lurk, but this
> is a very intriguing concept that *might* actually be feasible and
> achievable. All we have to do is figure out how to accomplish absolutely
> unhackable authentication without violating every right to privacy we
> hold dear.  Anybody want to hack that up by next Thursday? :-)
>
>> And yes, my first vote is to eliminate paper ballots and bar people
>> without access to computers from elections. Sorry, a computer is
>> available almost everywhere you go. It's time to grow with the times and
>> move on.
> I have to say I find this specific means-testing inappropriate just
> considering simple demographics. Have we even broken the 50% threshold
> of our eligible-to-vote citizens that could have access beyond dial-up?
> Hey, you want to computerize (*securely*) the collection of votes in
> such a way that folks in "flyover country (/sarcasm)" get to use the
> mechanism without owning the device and infrastructure, and without the
> yearly trip to Bethlehem, I'm right there with you. Give it 25 years,
> and maybe every citizen will have some level of computing device to
> participate. Until then...

Well, it IS interesting that those people victimized by the court
systems cannot vote: convicted felons.  When government quits preying
on citizens, humans will have evolved.

Until that happens, I don't see I have any choices here.

Of course those solutions are interesting, but really workable?  Can
you flow chart anything to an ACTUAL solution that can/would be
embraced,or even possible?

If so, I am sure everyone would help implement it?  Or they would be
profiting from it's failure?

> Just to take a philosophical hitch that'll probably generate a reaction
> to put me back in lurk mode, I absolutely think there should be a simple
> means test to earn voting rights: for the government entity in which you
> are about to vote (fed, state, city), have you paid taxes to that entity
> in x% of your eligible voting life (18+)? (asbestos underwear engaged :-)).
> ---
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> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>



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(503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[mike havens]

I think only land oners should have the right to vote. I do not own anything
so I would not get to vote.

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, James Lee Bell wrote:

> Jason Spatafore wrote:
> > Until the representatives are removed...we will constantly struggle with
> > this so-called Democracy. Technology has finally caught up to where it
> > can be used for a direct Democratic country with lower costs than
> > running elections every two years. Now is the time to start
> > implementing.
> I rarely get involved in these discussions, preferring to lurk, but this
> is a very intriguing concept that *might* actually be feasible and
> achievable. All we have to do is figure out how to accomplish absolutely
> unhackable authentication without violating every right to privacy we
> hold dear.  Anybody want to hack that up by next Thursday? :-)
>
> > And yes, my first vote is to eliminate paper ballots and bar people
> > without access to computers from elections. Sorry, a computer is
> > available almost everywhere you go. It's time to grow with the times and
> > move on.
> I have to say I find this specific means-testing inappropriate just
> considering simple demographics. Have we even broken the 50% threshold
> of our eligible-to-vote citizens that could have access beyond dial-up?
> Hey, you want to computerize (*securely*) the collection of votes in
> such a way that folks in "flyover country (/sarcasm)" get to use the
> mechanism without owning the device and infrastructure, and without the
> yearly trip to Bethlehem, I'm right there with you. Give it 25 years,
> and maybe every citizen will have some level of computing device to
> participate. Until then...
>
> Just to take a philosophical hitch that'll probably generate a reaction
> to put me back in lurk mode, I absolutely think there should be a simple
> means test to earn voting rights: for the government entity in which you
> are about to vote (fed, state, city), have you paid taxes to that entity
> in x% of your eligible voting life (18+)? (asbestos underwear engaged :-)).
> ---
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>



-- 
:-)~MIKE~(-:
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Re: Politics/Ethics: Operation PinWale - Obama Administration Seeks Emergency Control of the Internet

[Ryan Rix]

mike havens wrote:

> I think only land oners should have the right to vote. I do not own
> anything so I would not get to vote.

White land owning men? :P

> 
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 9:39 PM, James Lee Bell
> wrote:
> 
>> Jason Spatafore wrote:
>> > Until the representatives are removed...we will constantly struggle
>> > with this so-called Democracy. Technology has finally caught up to
>> > where it can be used for a direct Democratic country with lower costs
>> > than running elections every two years. Now is the time to start
>> > implementing.
>> I rarely get involved in these discussions, preferring to lurk, but this
>> is a very intriguing concept that *might* actually be feasible and
>> achievable. All we have to do is figure out how to accomplish absolutely
>> unhackable authentication without violating every right to privacy we
>> hold dear.  Anybody want to hack that up by next Thursday? :-)
>>
>> > And yes, my first vote is to eliminate paper ballots and bar people
>> > without access to computers from elections. Sorry, a computer is
>> > available almost everywhere you go. It's time to grow with the times
>> > and move on.
>> I have to say I find this specific means-testing inappropriate just
>> considering simple demographics. Have we even broken the 50% threshold
>> of our eligible-to-vote citizens that could have access beyond dial-up?
>> Hey, you want to computerize (*securely*) the collection of votes in
>> such a way that folks in "flyover country (/sarcasm)" get to use the
>> mechanism without owning the device and infrastructure, and without the
>> yearly trip to Bethlehem, I'm right there with you. Give it 25 years,
>> and maybe every citizen will have some level of computing device to
>> participate. Until then...
>>
>> Just to take a philosophical hitch that'll probably generate a reaction
>> to put me back in lurk mode, I absolutely think there should be a simple
>> means test to earn voting rights: for the government entity in which you
>> are about to vote (fed, state, city), have you paid taxes to that entity
>> in x% of your eligible voting life (18+)? (asbestos underwear engaged
>> :-)). ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Ryan Rix
(623)-826-0051

Fortune:
Been Transferred Lately?

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