Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Well, in relation to what I was talking about in the first place, it's all a matter of how much you travel, and what your life is like. I've had the same experience with pedal bike... even had people screaming out constantly get out of the road and drive on the sidewalk like the law says. (I was in the bike lane lol) MPG and maintenance costs all mingle together. I've been hit violently in car, motorcycle, bicycle, walking, running, you name it. I'm not making it up either :-) I've come to the conclusion that you can't even bring that into the equation of transport. Most people believe that what movements they do are for everyone else to watch out for. The last was being hit in the side on motorcycle by a guy racing an SUV through a redlight at 40 mph, not much you can do about that kind of thing other than just accept the consequences of life really Anyway, my original post was just comparing an everyday Toyota Corolla to a 750cc cruiser motorcycle. Very comparable, and gives us lots of options for fuel economy! Thanks, Dan Lund It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope. -Niccolo Machiavelli On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:47 AM, koder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wish I could talk and do more to the people. There are some who seem > to think they own the road and if you are biking, pedal or motorized > that they not only have the right of way, but a legal right to run you > down. > > I encountered a trucker who tried to kill me. It put a stop to riding a > bike to work. > > Since this is the reality of the world we live in it is wise to factor > it into the cost/benefit equation, as distinguished from the ROI factor > I referenced earlier. > > We won't even get into drunks who NEED to drive drunk so they can keep > their jobs, or drunken priests who get a get out of jail free card. > > Harold > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
RE: OT - Have you seen this ad?
I know few (only one actually) cyclists who have not been hit. It has always been the cars fault. That said, I was once in a hit and run from a cyclist. I was driving in flag once, borrowed my buddies new sports car, I was at a stop sign (for a while, the merge road was busy) and out of nowhere this guy on a bicycle goes rolling across my hood. I get out to see if he is Ok and before I could say much he picked up his bike and rode on. $500 worth of damage to the car later I had a story about how I was hit by a cyclist. He was an idiot who was ridding way too fast on a set back side walk and not paying attention. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig White Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:41 PM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 10:57 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: > This has been one hell of a flame war! > Regarding biking to work, this keeps me on the side walk regardless of > Tempe laws. If a car is going to kill me, they need to jump the curb > first. Riding a bike in this town requires you to assume every single > car on the road is actively trying to kill you. A rule I ride by is > "laws of physics always trump right of way" > > On a side note, in the Netherlands, if a driver hits a bicyclist, > regardless of reason, the driver is 100% at fault. A bicyclist could > wait for a car to come down a road, then throw themselves in front of > the car, and the car is (criminally) at fault. not a discussion that I was gonna participate in but this is surely relevant... http://www.azcentral.com/rsslinks/722084 Craig --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
NPR's Talk of the Nation had this as a topic last week: http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2008/08/car_vs_cyclist_1.html I work at Intel in Chandler and ride to work when I can (both motorcycle and bicycle). The benefits, for me at least, mentally and physically outway the risks. I've only had one incident where a pickup loaded with goofballs decided to blare their horn at my as they passed. This was the section of 48St just north of Guadalupe where's there more than enough room for everyone so I'm sure they were just looking to cause problems. That said, I've known cyclists (moto and bi) that also look for trouble so it's not just motorists. I do hope folks and communities figure out a way to share... ymmv, C.G. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Carlos Macedo Gomes _sic itur ad astra_ --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
I don't understand your comment. Considering some of my other posts on this topic, I thought it was rather neutral :) . Its nice to have a black and white rule. However, there are instances where either party could be taken advantage of. (if a cyclist wants a new bike, they throw it in front of a car and claim being hit... if the cyclist is killed, there is an incentive (although sadistic imo) to not report the accident. I only mentioned it because its a different, interesting (imo) perspective on the bike/car relationship. On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Donn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You say that like it's a good thing? > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> On a side note, in the Netherlands, if a driver hits a bicyclist, >> regardless of reason, the driver is 100% at fault. A bicyclist could wait >> for a car to come down a road, then throw themselves in front of the car, >> and the car is (criminally) at fault. >> >> Eric >> > > -- > Donn > There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." > -- Dave Barry > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 10:57 -0700, Eric Cope wrote: > This has been one hell of a flame war! > Regarding biking to work, this keeps me on the side walk regardless of > Tempe laws. If a car is going to kill me, they need to jump the curb > first. Riding a bike in this town requires you to assume every single > car on the road is actively trying to kill you. A rule I ride by is > "laws of physics always trump right of way" > > On a side note, in the Netherlands, if a driver hits a bicyclist, > regardless of reason, the driver is 100% at fault. A bicyclist could > wait for a car to come down a road, then throw themselves in front of > the car, and the car is (criminally) at fault. not a discussion that I was gonna participate in but this is surely relevant... http://www.azcentral.com/rsslinks/722084 Craig --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
You say that like it's a good thing? On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On a side note, in the Netherlands, if a driver hits a bicyclist, > regardless of reason, the driver is 100% at fault. A bicyclist could wait > for a car to come down a road, then throw themselves in front of the car, > and the car is (criminally) at fault. > > Eric > -- Donn There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." -- Dave Barry --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
This has been one hell of a flame war! Regarding biking to work, this keeps me on the side walk regardless of Tempe laws. If a car is going to kill me, they need to jump the curb first. Riding a bike in this town requires you to assume every single car on the road is actively trying to kill you. A rule I ride by is "laws of physics always trump right of way" On a side note, in the Netherlands, if a driver hits a bicyclist, regardless of reason, the driver is 100% at fault. A bicyclist could wait for a car to come down a road, then throw themselves in front of the car, and the car is (criminally) at fault. Eric On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:47 AM, koder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wish I could talk and do more to the people. There are some who seem > to think they own the road and if you are biking, pedal or motorized > that they not only have the right of way, but a legal right to run you > down. > > I encountered a trucker who tried to kill me. It put a stop to riding a > bike to work. > > Since this is the reality of the world we live in it is wise to factor > it into the cost/benefit equation, as distinguished from the ROI factor > I referenced earlier. > > We won't even get into drunks who NEED to drive drunk so they can keep > their jobs, or drunken priests who get a get out of jail free card. > > Harold > > > -Original Message- > From: Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list > > Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 01:34:54 -0700 > > You might want to talk to the people that hit the bikers then. > I almost died. > > Thanks, > Dan Lund > It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it > to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to > act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have > free scope. > -Niccolo Machiavelli > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:14 PM, koder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Don't forget to factor in safety. One good wreck and your cost per mile > > can go up with great rapidity. I am getting tired of attending funerals > > of bikers. It is only two so far, but that is two too many. > > > > I doubt you have ever had a problem. . . yet. > > > > Harold > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list > > > > To: Main PLUG discussion list > > Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? > > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:34:08 -0700 > > > > I find a 50-55 mpg motorcycle helps out tremendously. My last tank > > ran $0.07/mile, and I was pounding the throttle. > > > > The metric is always $/mile, since the miles you drive always change > > depending on what you are doing. Also, driving style (highway, > > surface roads, acceleration amounts, etc) has a huge impact on fuel > > economy. > > I've found that the Toyota Corolla gets 40 mpg on the highway on the > > long-run between Phoenix and San Diego. (~360 miles) Not too shabby, > > about 9 gallons... pretty good when my motorcycle uses about 7 gallons > > on that trip. > > > > Thanks, > > Dan Lund > > It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it > > to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to > > act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have > > free scope. > > -Niccolo Machiavelli > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats > >> better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you safely aired up > your > >> tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is > not > >> $/mile, but $/day. > >> > >> $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but > >> commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend > $1.5/day > >> on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, > then > >> you could probably bike to work... > >> > >> let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years > to > >> pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with > the > >> maintenance of solar? > >> > >> And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are > willing > >> to do it ourselves (which is always better),
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
I wish I could talk and do more to the people. There are some who seem to think they own the road and if you are biking, pedal or motorized that they not only have the right of way, but a legal right to run you down. I encountered a trucker who tried to kill me. It put a stop to riding a bike to work. Since this is the reality of the world we live in it is wise to factor it into the cost/benefit equation, as distinguished from the ROI factor I referenced earlier. We won't even get into drunks who NEED to drive drunk so they can keep their jobs, or drunken priests who get a get out of jail free card. Harold -Original Message- From: Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 01:34:54 -0700 You might want to talk to the people that hit the bikers then. I almost died. Thanks, Dan Lund It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope. -Niccolo Machiavelli On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:14 PM, koder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Don't forget to factor in safety. One good wreck and your cost per mile > can go up with great rapidity. I am getting tired of attending funerals > of bikers. It is only two so far, but that is two too many. > > I doubt you have ever had a problem. . . yet. > > Harold > > > -Original Message- > From: Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list > > To: Main PLUG discussion list > Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:34:08 -0700 > > I find a 50-55 mpg motorcycle helps out tremendously. My last tank > ran $0.07/mile, and I was pounding the throttle. > > The metric is always $/mile, since the miles you drive always change > depending on what you are doing. Also, driving style (highway, > surface roads, acceleration amounts, etc) has a huge impact on fuel > economy. > I've found that the Toyota Corolla gets 40 mpg on the highway on the > long-run between Phoenix and San Diego. (~360 miles) Not too shabby, > about 9 gallons... pretty good when my motorcycle uses about 7 gallons > on that trip. > > Thanks, > Dan Lund > It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it > to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to > act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have > free scope. > -Niccolo Machiavelli > > > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats >> better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you safely aired up your >> tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is not >> $/mile, but $/day. >> >> $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but >> commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend $1.5/day >> on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, then >> you could probably bike to work... >> >> let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to >> pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the >> maintenance of solar? >> >> And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing >> to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders >> to bully us into doing it ourselves? >> >> keep up the good fight! >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> >>> I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. >>> >>> See attached spreadsheet. :) >>> >>> Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a >>> surplus. >>> >>> Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I >>> was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: Eric Cope >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion list >>> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? >>> Sorry to start the flame war... >>> Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? >>> Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? >>> >>> >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>>
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
You might want to talk to the people that hit the bikers then. I almost died. Thanks, Dan Lund It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope. -Niccolo Machiavelli On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:14 PM, koder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Don't forget to factor in safety. One good wreck and your cost per mile > can go up with great rapidity. I am getting tired of attending funerals > of bikers. It is only two so far, but that is two too many. > > I doubt you have ever had a problem. . . yet. > > Harold > > > -Original Message- > From: Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list > > To: Main PLUG discussion list > Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:34:08 -0700 > > I find a 50-55 mpg motorcycle helps out tremendously. My last tank > ran $0.07/mile, and I was pounding the throttle. > > The metric is always $/mile, since the miles you drive always change > depending on what you are doing. Also, driving style (highway, > surface roads, acceleration amounts, etc) has a huge impact on fuel > economy. > I've found that the Toyota Corolla gets 40 mpg on the highway on the > long-run between Phoenix and San Diego. (~360 miles) Not too shabby, > about 9 gallons... pretty good when my motorcycle uses about 7 gallons > on that trip. > > Thanks, > Dan Lund > It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it > to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to > act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have > free scope. > -Niccolo Machiavelli > > > > On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats >> better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you safely aired up your >> tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is not >> $/mile, but $/day. >> >> $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but >> commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend $1.5/day >> on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, then >> you could probably bike to work... >> >> let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to >> pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the >> maintenance of solar? >> >> And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing >> to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders >> to bully us into doing it ourselves? >> >> keep up the good fight! >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> >>> I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. >>> >>> See attached spreadsheet. :) >>> >>> Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a >>> surplus. >>> >>> Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I >>> was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: Eric Cope >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion list >>> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? >>> Sorry to start the flame war... >>> Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? >>> Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? >>> >>> >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject >>>> line next time. :) >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel >>>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> >>>> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 >>>> To: >>>> Subject: Have you seen this ad? >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> http://lists.PLU
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Don't forget to factor in safety. One good wreck and your cost per mile can go up with great rapidity. I am getting tired of attending funerals of bikers. It is only two so far, but that is two too many. I doubt you have ever had a problem. . . yet. Harold -Original Message- From: Dan Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:34:08 -0700 I find a 50-55 mpg motorcycle helps out tremendously. My last tank ran $0.07/mile, and I was pounding the throttle. The metric is always $/mile, since the miles you drive always change depending on what you are doing. Also, driving style (highway, surface roads, acceleration amounts, etc) has a huge impact on fuel economy. I've found that the Toyota Corolla gets 40 mpg on the highway on the long-run between Phoenix and San Diego. (~360 miles) Not too shabby, about 9 gallons... pretty good when my motorcycle uses about 7 gallons on that trip. Thanks, Dan Lund It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope. -Niccolo Machiavelli On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats > better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you safely aired up your > tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is not > $/mile, but $/day. > > $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but > commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend $1.5/day > on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, then > you could probably bike to work... > > let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to > pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the > maintenance of solar? > > And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing > to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders > to bully us into doing it ourselves? > > keep up the good fight! > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> >> I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. >> >> See attached spreadsheet. :) >> >> Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a >> surplus. >> >> Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I >> was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: Eric Cope >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion list >> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM >> Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? >> Sorry to start the flame war... >> Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? >> Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? >> >> >> >> Eric >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject >>> line next time. :) >>> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 >>> To: >>> Subject: Have you seen this ad? >>> >>> >>> --- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> --- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 >> 7:01 AM >> >> >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plu
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
I find a 50-55 mpg motorcycle helps out tremendously. My last tank ran $0.07/mile, and I was pounding the throttle. The metric is always $/mile, since the miles you drive always change depending on what you are doing. Also, driving style (highway, surface roads, acceleration amounts, etc) has a huge impact on fuel economy. I've found that the Toyota Corolla gets 40 mpg on the highway on the long-run between Phoenix and San Diego. (~360 miles) Not too shabby, about 9 gallons... pretty good when my motorcycle uses about 7 gallons on that trip. Thanks, Dan Lund It is necessary for him who lays out a state and arranges laws for it to presuppose that all men are evil and that they are always going to act according to the wickedness of their spirits whenever they have free scope. -Niccolo Machiavelli On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats > better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you safely aired up your > tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is not > $/mile, but $/day. > > $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but > commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend $1.5/day > on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, then > you could probably bike to work... > > let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to > pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the > maintenance of solar? > > And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing > to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders > to bully us into doing it ourselves? > > keep up the good fight! > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> >> I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. >> >> See attached spreadsheet. :) >> >> Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a >> surplus. >> >> Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I >> was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. >> >> >> ----- Original Message - >> From: Eric Cope >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion list >> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM >> Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? >> Sorry to start the flame war... >> Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? >> Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? >> >> >> >> Eric >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject >>> line next time. :) >>> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 >>> To: >>> Subject: Have you seen this ad? >>> >>> >>> --- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> --- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 >> 7:01 AM >> >> >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Actually Eric, when you go from a van that got 22 MPG and get yourself into a small car that consistently gets above 32 MPG (and if you look at the spreadsheet, more often than not > 36MPG), then you have done your part. Just because you've seen "better" doesn't mean everybody can afford to go "better". However, you show me an electric car for the price of my Corolla and I would trade in immediately. I drive mostly highway...I was looking at a Prius. However, when the Prius gets close to what I get in my Corolla on the highway, but costs 8k more, I see the Corolla paying off much quicker *and* doing my part. (Corolla was 16k, Prius was 22k) For my pocketbook, the true measurement is dollars/mile. I work 36 miles from home. There is no way in hell I am going to bike or take a bus. That would be a 2 hour journey by bus, 4 hour journey by bike. When I look at the amount I get paid an hour, I am not going to spend $240.00/day to try and save a few carbon atoms from hitting the air. (Although I am part of convincing my work to go to 4 day workweeks.) As for "Why should the leaders fix the problem?" remarkthe simple fact is that we elect them. They do as we say. If we tell them to fix the problem, then there is no further discussion. Part of being a voter is that I do not have to justify why I want them to do something. They are my elected official...I am their boss. Do as I say or I replace you. Now, for solar20k investment after tax write-offs and APS credits (53k for whole unit, 20k from APS, around 10k from feds.) Anyway, 20k after installation. Now, a 20k loan for 20 years is around what, $200.00 a month with high interest? 1. Solar increases the value of your home by approximately 5k per kwH that you get the unit. (40k in my case). 2. You no longer pay APS...who happens to be raising prices again because they didn't utilize solar like they should have. Anyway, I pay them 251.00/month...probably $300.00/month next year if I don't go solar. So, I will pay the monthly service fee from APS (something like $40.00 for staying on the grid) and will pay the loan at 200/month. The price would be the same...except I won't be as effected by fossil fuel obsolescence. Also, when you think about solar...when do you produce the most electricity? Yep, during the times that you *use* the most electricity on air conditioning. In Arizona, solar makes sense and it does pay off not just for the cost but for the value it adds to the home. Arizona should have embraced solar 10 years ago...and our elected officials should have been pushing it. I actually reamed my work a bit because we just built a new building and didn't install solar panels. If we would have installed solar panels and placed the air conditioners under the solar panels, the incoming air would have been slightly colder *and* we could have offset our monthly bills which will always rise. The pay off is in more like 10 years than 20. And that's not even taking the environmental benefits into account. - Original Message - From: Eric Cope To: Jason Spatafore ; Main PLUG discussion list Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 8:05 AM Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you safely aired up your tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is not $/mile, but $/day. $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend $1.5/day on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, then you could probably bike to work... let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the maintenance of solar? And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders to bully us into doing it ourselves? keep up the good fight! On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. See attached spreadsheet. :) Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a surplus. Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. - Original Message - From: Eric Cope To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion list Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? Sorry to start the flame war... Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? Why do we need our "leaders&qu
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
If the utility company would pay consumers for energy above and beyond the amount they generated for personal use that is dumped back to the grid, we would have the incentive for installing solar and wind powered electric generating equipment. Under present procedure you can put excess power into the grid and offset your power consumption, but anything extra you feed to the grid is a gift to the utility company. I am of the opinion that people will spend capital to invest in power if it will put cash in their pocket, even if the amount is small. Once you have provided for your own needs anything extra is a revenue stream. If you combine that with low interest loans many more people will install solar. Return On Investment should not be the only yardstick used to evaluate energy saving decisions. We all have a responsibility to ourselves, our own and our collective children to leave them a decent world to live in. A world that has a killer climate because our ROI was not good enough to convince us to reduce hydrocarbon fuel consumption is not the sort of legacy I would want to leave mine, or your children. Harold -Original Message- From: Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Main PLUG discussion list To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:24:47 -0700 all interesting points... but which government agency is forcing you, myself, and every other programmer to contribute 30% of your time to open source projects that you may or may not want to contribute? Taking without my permission is stealing. The government takes my money without my permission (choosing payment over jail time is not permission) "I think the real measure of a society's greatness is the way it treats its most vulnerable members." I agree, thats why I donate my time, money, and effort to causes I support when I want, how I want, and to what degree I want. The same can not be said regarding government assistance programs. Thats why things like the Salvation Army and most soup kitchens still exist despite government programs "effectiveness." Libertarianism is pooling your resources for your causes, when and how you want. Socialism is pooling your resources how your government wants, without any control on your part. I do take the bus, every day to work. And I bike between house<->bus and the bus<->work. I agree with all of your goals, its your method that scares me and holds back the growth of all classes, especially the poor. The question I ask myself often is, "what if everything I believed was wrong? How would that impact my goals? my methods? my life?" I know my answer... do you? Thanks for the interaction! This is great! We need to meet at an upcoming meeting. On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Alex Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Eric Cope wrote: However, if the government were to steal money for other purposes, that don't benefit you, then it would be a completely different situation. That's what elections are for. If you don't like what your taxes are being spent for, elect someone else. If you want to have no taxes and no services, fair 'nuff. I wouldn't vote for that, but I can cope with people disagreeing. 'Stealing' is an inaccurate term in my view. I don't personally benefit from food stamps, unemployment insurance, homeless shelters, or a million other programs, but I am happy to contribute to them. I think the real measure of a society's greatness is the way it treats its most vulnerable members. We hear a lot of pandering to the 'middle class', and not nearly enough about helping the poor. To tell me I only support things out of selfishness just means you don't know me at all. You're taking some suggestions I had about concrete, tangible ideas (get a quote for solar hot water, check the bus schedules), and turning this into a thread about ideology, about the illegitimacy of government. It's not very convincing, and seems likely to spark a 'my politics is better than your politics' argument. 'Ideas' and 'ideology' have a common root, but in practice they rarely interact. If we can stick to specific points, I'm with you. If we're going up in the clouds, I quit. Additionally, when you see how much money the city governments subsidize your bus system, and now light rail system, your $/mile or $/day is very high. How much do we spend on road
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
all interesting points... but which government agency is forcing you, myself, and every other programmer to contribute 30% of your time to open source projects that you may or may not want to contribute? Taking without my permission is stealing. The government takes my money without my permission (choosing payment over jail time is not permission) "I think the real measure of a society's greatness is the way it treats its most vulnerable members." I agree, thats why I donate my time, money, and effort to causes I support when I want, how I want, and to what degree I want. The same can not be said regarding government assistance programs. Thats why things like the Salvation Army and most soup kitchens still exist despite government programs "effectiveness." Libertarianism is pooling your resources for your causes, when and how you want. Socialism is pooling your resources how your government wants, without any control on your part. I do take the bus, every day to work. And I bike between house<->bus and the bus<->work. I agree with all of your goals, its your method that scares me and holds back the growth of all classes, especially the poor. The question I ask myself often is, "what if everything I believed was wrong? How would that impact my goals? my methods? my life?" I know my answer... do you? Thanks for the interaction! This is great! We need to meet at an upcoming meeting. On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Alex Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Eric Cope wrote: > > However, if the government were to steal money for other purposes, that >> don't benefit you, then it would be a completely different situation. >> > > That's what elections are for. If you don't like what your taxes are > being spent for, elect someone else. If you want to have no taxes and no > services, fair 'nuff. I wouldn't vote for that, but I can cope with people > disagreeing. > > 'Stealing' is an inaccurate term in my view. I don't personally benefit > from food stamps, unemployment insurance, homeless shelters, or a > million other programs, but I am happy to contribute to them. I think > the real measure of a society's greatness is the way it treats its most > vulnerable members. We hear a lot of pandering to the 'middle class', > and not nearly enough about helping the poor. To tell me I only support > things out of selfishness just means you don't know me at all. > > You're taking some suggestions I had about concrete, > tangible ideas (get a quote for solar hot water, check the bus > schedules), and turning this into a thread about ideology, about the > illegitimacy of government. It's not very convincing, and seems likely > to spark a 'my politics is better than your politics' argument. 'Ideas' > and 'ideology' have a common root, but in practice they rarely interact. If > we can stick to specific points, I'm with you. If we're going up in the > clouds, I quit. > > Additionally, when you see how much >> money the city governments subsidize your bus system, and now light rail >> system, your $/mile or $/day is very high. >> > > How much do we spend on road maintenance? How much land do we loose to > huge superhighways to accommodate all those cars? What price do we all > pay breathing the smog produced by large numbers of cars with only 1 > occupant? How much time do we lose sitting in traffic jams? > > If you don't live near a convenient bus route, don't use the bus. My point > was you'd be surprised how often you can get where you're going, and in > about the same amount of time, and without having to look for a parking > space at the end of your ride. If you want to drive, by all means. I use > my car often enough, and I'm not trying to tell you cars are bad. > > > Additionally, while city > >> governments subsidize bus systems, they also prevent other systems from >> entering the market through licensing and lack of subsidies. The end result >> is a very poor system that has no market forces forcing it to be 2 of the 3, >> better, faster, or cheaper. >> > > Multiple transit companies competing can also be a huge waste of > resources. Lots of duplicated effort. Lots of redundant service in > high-population areas and a lack of service elsewhere. A transit system > works best when it's comprehensive, when you can get EVERYWHERE. Maybe some > private contracts would improve things in some areas, but I'd be really > leery of turning the whole thing over to the lowest bidder. > > For example, I wanted to take a >> bus from i-10 and Elliot to ASU. The bus route would take just over an >> hour. I rode my bike the seven miles in 30 minutes. >> > > No doubt routes could be improved. My observation has been that if you > live near a route that works, the system is pretty good. But too often, > you don't. The system is not nearly as comprehensive is it ought to be, > and I'd support ideas to make it more so. > > About the bike : Folks who are blind, elderly, or in a wheelchair aren't > going to
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Eric Cope wrote: However, if the government were to steal money for other purposes, that don't benefit you, then it would be a completely different situation. That's what elections are for. If you don't like what your taxes are being spent for, elect someone else. If you want to have no taxes and no services, fair 'nuff. I wouldn't vote for that, but I can cope with people disagreeing. 'Stealing' is an inaccurate term in my view. I don't personally benefit from food stamps, unemployment insurance, homeless shelters, or a million other programs, but I am happy to contribute to them. I think the real measure of a society's greatness is the way it treats its most vulnerable members. We hear a lot of pandering to the 'middle class', and not nearly enough about helping the poor. To tell me I only support things out of selfishness just means you don't know me at all. You're taking some suggestions I had about concrete, tangible ideas (get a quote for solar hot water, check the bus schedules), and turning this into a thread about ideology, about the illegitimacy of government. It's not very convincing, and seems likely to spark a 'my politics is better than your politics' argument. 'Ideas' and 'ideology' have a common root, but in practice they rarely interact. If we can stick to specific points, I'm with you. If we're going up in the clouds, I quit. Additionally, when you see how much money the city governments subsidize your bus system, and now light rail system, your $/mile or $/day is very high. How much do we spend on road maintenance? How much land do we loose to huge superhighways to accommodate all those cars? What price do we all pay breathing the smog produced by large numbers of cars with only 1 occupant? How much time do we lose sitting in traffic jams? If you don't live near a convenient bus route, don't use the bus. My point was you'd be surprised how often you can get where you're going, and in about the same amount of time, and without having to look for a parking space at the end of your ride. If you want to drive, by all means. I use my car often enough, and I'm not trying to tell you cars are bad. > Additionally, while city governments subsidize bus systems, they also prevent other systems from entering the market through licensing and lack of subsidies. The end result is a very poor system that has no market forces forcing it to be 2 of the 3, better, faster, or cheaper. Multiple transit companies competing can also be a huge waste of resources. Lots of duplicated effort. Lots of redundant service in high-population areas and a lack of service elsewhere. A transit system works best when it's comprehensive, when you can get EVERYWHERE. Maybe some private contracts would improve things in some areas, but I'd be really leery of turning the whole thing over to the lowest bidder. For example, I wanted to take a bus from i-10 and Elliot to ASU. The bus route would take just over an hour. I rode my bike the seven miles in 30 minutes. No doubt routes could be improved. My observation has been that if you live near a route that works, the system is pretty good. But too often, you don't. The system is not nearly as comprehensive is it ought to be, and I'd support ideas to make it more so. About the bike : Folks who are blind, elderly, or in a wheelchair aren't going to be riding a bike. I think providing basic transportation options to everyone is a legitimate service a local government ought to provide. It's not stealing, and I don't know why you'd call it that. Your favored subsidies, your pooled resources, create (financially, timely, and environmentally) extremely inefficient mechanisms, in this case a crappy, smelly, rude, late, slow, bus system. I dismiss this as unsupported assertion, not real argument. With this kind of hyperbole, I'm rapidly losing interesting in continuing the discussion. You're coming off as a zealot. You continue to imply that there's no legitimate role for government in providing public transit, and I think you're flat wrong about that, but if you're going to make your point with talk-radio style I'll just let this drop. A civil debate with actual information I'm interested in, a shouting match I'm not. I like to have my thinking challenged, but I don't like to be berated. The core of what I'm trying to say is simple. Just this : There are lots of good ideas for lessening our energy consumption. Cars with better MPG are only 1 of them. The bus system works quite well in many circumstances. I benefit, and so do many others. You might be pleasantly surprised if you try it. That's it. Not much more to it. I appreciate your last statement about having a good debate, and no I don't take it personally. But if you want to turn this into a tirade about the tyranny of the nanny state, you're going much further afield than I have interest in following. kind regards, alex ps
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Actually, everyone should go buy 10 year old civics with blown engines and install electric motors. that will get you to $0.01-0.02/mile http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/which-electric-motor-for-a-civic-conversion.html http://civicity.blogspot.com/ Eric On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:41 AM, Austin Godber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Now if you can put in a $10k solar panel and wind combo and save $1k a > year or more, that might be a worthy investment for a home. > > > > Seems those would have blown away last night though. Your other points > are very valid ... everyone go buy a 10 year old civic. > > Actually, I came across a great couple of articles on a guys experience > with getting solar in california. Linked here: > http://delicious.com/godber/solar > > Austin > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Now if you can put in a $10k solar panel and wind combo and save $1k a year > or more, that might be a worthy investment for a home. > Seems those would have blown away last night though. Your other points are very valid ... everyone go buy a 10 year old civic. Actually, I came across a great couple of articles on a guys experience with getting solar in california. Linked here: http://delicious.com/godber/solar Austin --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Please don't do things like trade in your car for another that's $10k or $15k more just to go from 25mpg to 40mpg, it can take many years to recover the price difference in gas savings, and someone else is going to buy and burn gas in your trade-in anyway. In the above example, there's a 15 mile per gallon savings. 1gal/15mi * $4/1gal => $0.26/mi savings You'll need to drive almost 40k miles to get the money back for the $10k tradein. Stop giving your paychecks to the bank! Now if you can put in a $10k solar panel and wind combo and save $1k a year or more, that might be a worthy investment for a home. Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats > better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you *safely* aired up > your tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is > not $/mile, but $/day. > > $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but > commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend $1.5/day > on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, then > you could probably bike to work... > > let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to > pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the > maintenance of solar? > > And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing > to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders > to bully us into doing it ourselves? > > keep up the good fight! > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. > > > > See attached spreadsheet. :) > > > > Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a > > surplus. > > > > Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I > > was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. > > > > > > - Original Message - > > *From:* Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion > > list > > *Sent:* Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM > > *Subject:* Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? > > > > Sorry to start the flame war... > > Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? > > Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject > >> line next time. :) > >> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > >> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 > >> To: > >> Subject: Have you seen this ad? > >> > >> > >> --- > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> --- > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 > > 7:01 AM > > > > -- > > > > --- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > --- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
You have some interesting concepts. I also take the bus, from Maricopa to Tempe.I agree regarding your statement about changing habits. But your statement regarding "pooling resources" is exactly what I am talking about. You call it pooling because it takes other peoples money and benefits you directly. However, if the government were to steal money for other purposes, that don't benefit you, then it would be a completely different situation. Additionally, when you see how much money the city governments subsidize your bus system, and now light rail system, your $/mile or $/day is very high. Additionally, while city governments subsidize bus systems, they also prevent other systems from entering the market through licensing and lack of subsidies. The end result is a very poor system that has no market forces forcing it to be 2 of the 3, better, faster, or cheaper. For example, I wanted to take a bus from i-10 and Elliot to ASU. The bus route would take just over an hour. I rode my bike the seven miles in 30 minutes. Your favored subsidies, your pooled resources, create (financially, timely, and environmentally) extremely inefficient mechanisms, in this case a crappy, smelly, rude, late, slow, bus system. So, no, pooling (read stealing) resources for special interest groups is rarely a good idea, as demonstrated by light rail systems throughout the US and our bus system as well. On a side note, I really enjoy exchanging ideas with you Alex. Please don't read this with a tone other than informative. Additionally, if we should take this off the plug list, lets do that so we don't pester anyone else... Eric On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 8:20 AM, Alex Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Eric Cope wrote: > >> I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats >> better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you *safely* aired up >> your tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is >> not $/mile, but $/day. >> >> > My $/day is pretty awesome. I ride the bus or work at home. > > No, doesn't take long. Express from Tempe to downtown Phoenix takes about > 20 min. Stuck in traffic? Read a book, let the driver worry about it. > > Not everyone can do that. But what I'm saying is it's not all about > finding better cars. It's also about finding things that are better THAN > cars. Changing habits is as important as changing technology. > > let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years >> to pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with >> the maintenance of solar? >> > > Have you looked into solar hot-water? Between federal and state tax > credits, you can install a brand new system (~$5000), and it will end up > costing you about $1000. Think of the amount of power that goes into > running your water heater. I'm not inventing those numbers. I've got a > written installation quote and rebate forms that use those figures. > > >> And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are >> willing to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our >> leaders to bully us into doing it ourselves? >> > > Well, government isn't all about bullying. A government that provides > incentives for people to make choices which benefit us all is doing a good > thing. 2 things I've commented on here, solar hot water and public transit, > are viable alternatives because they are partially subsidized. I don't feel > bullied. I feel glad that, at least some of the time, our leaders are > putting our money into good programs. > > I love doing things myself. I also love pooling resources with others to > take advantage of economies of scale. I wouldn't run my own bus, but I'm > happy the city operates a bus service. I could drive if I wanted to, but I > don't want to, and I'm glad I don't have to. > > alex > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Eric Cope wrote: I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you *safely* aired up your tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is not $/mile, but $/day. My $/day is pretty awesome. I ride the bus or work at home. No, doesn't take long. Express from Tempe to downtown Phoenix takes about 20 min. Stuck in traffic? Read a book, let the driver worry about it. Not everyone can do that. But what I'm saying is it's not all about finding better cars. It's also about finding things that are better THAN cars. Changing habits is as important as changing technology. let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the maintenance of solar? Have you looked into solar hot-water? Between federal and state tax credits, you can install a brand new system (~$5000), and it will end up costing you about $1000. Think of the amount of power that goes into running your water heater. I'm not inventing those numbers. I've got a written installation quote and rebate forms that use those figures. And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders to bully us into doing it ourselves? Well, government isn't all about bullying. A government that provides incentives for people to make choices which benefit us all is doing a good thing. 2 things I've commented on here, solar hot water and public transit, are viable alternatives because they are partially subsidized. I don't feel bullied. I feel glad that, at least some of the time, our leaders are putting our money into good programs. I love doing things myself. I also love pooling resources with others to take advantage of economies of scale. I wouldn't run my own bus, but I'm happy the city operates a bus service. I could drive if I wanted to, but I don't want to, and I'm glad I don't have to. alex signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
I wouldn't be too excited about 32 mpg (I saw the 37s and 38s, thats better). Over 40 and thats good... (side note, have you *safely* aired up your tires to 40-45psi, that will get you 1-3 more mpg). The true metric is not $/mile, but $/day. $/gallon * gallons/mile * miles/day = $/day. If you spend $.10/mile but commute to LA from Phoenix, its still wasteful... but if you spend $1.5/day on fuel, thats making a difference. because if its only $1.50 a day, then you could probably bike to work... let me know what your solar experiences are. I found they take 20+ years to pay for themselves with warranties under 20 years. Are you familiar with the maintenance of solar? And you didn't answer my second question. If we as a population are willing to do it ourselves (which is always better), why do we require our leaders to bully us into doing it ourselves? keep up the good fight! On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. > > See attached spreadsheet. :) > > Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a > surplus. > > Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I > was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. > > > - Original Message - > *From:* Eric Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion > list > *Sent:* Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM > *Subject:* Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? > > Sorry to start the flame war... > Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? > Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? > > > > Eric > > > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject >> line next time. :) >> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 >> To: >> Subject: Have you seen this ad? >> >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 > 7:01 AM > > -- > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
On Thursday 28 August 2008 7:19:56 pm Jason Spatafore wrote: <> > Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a > surplus. <> Where did you get your info when deciding on how to go about adding solar. Considering it myself and need to start researching options. Thanks. -- Jason Hayes --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
I bought oil stocks in my IRA. I'm doing awesome. On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jason Spatafore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. > -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOTICE: The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copy, distribution or other use of this information is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error please notify us immediately by telephone and delete or discard this message immediately. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
I bought a car that gets 32+ MPG constantly. See attached spreadsheet. :) Getting ready to have solar added to my house. 8.6kwH unit so I generate a surplus. Notice how I measure performance on $/mile. That's what really matters. I was ticked when it hit .10/mile. I want to see $.05/mile. - Original Message - From: Eric Cope To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Main PLUG discussion list Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 4:55 PM Subject: Re: OT - Have you seen this ad? Sorry to start the flame war... Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? Eric On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject line next time. :) Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel -Original Message- From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 To: Subject: Have you seen this ad? --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 7:01 AM -- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss Mileage Log.ods Description: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.spreadsheet --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT - Have you seen this ad?
Sorry to start the flame war... Stephen, what are you doing to stop the "addiction"? Why do we need our "leaders" to do it for us? Eric On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject line > next time. :) > Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel > > -Original Message- > From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 > To: > Subject: Have you seen this ad? > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Have you seen this ad?
Link is relevant to my interests but please add an "OT" to the subject line next time. :) Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel -Original Message- From: Stephen Wiebelhaus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:54:31 To: Subject: Have you seen this ad? --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Have you seen this ad?
$427 million. That's what the oil and coal industries spent during the first half of 2008 on lobbying and advertising. They're protecting their interests -- and hurting ours. I just watched a new ad from the We Campaign that tells the truth about what needs to be done -- demanding our leaders FREE US from an addiction to expensive fossil fuels. Watch it here: http://www.wecansolveit.org/freeusad Thank you. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
