Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
From: Dazed_75 >> Note that the fsck you need may be called udffsck, and it might >> not be installed. > I could not find it anywhere While searching Synaptic for it I did fins > dares and dares-qt. It found 53 files and built a recover.iso but that > does not seem to be helpful either. udffsck is part of the udftools package. I see some Ubuntu packages available, so there must be a Debian package for that somewhere. Were any of those 53 files .VOB files? Single-layer DVDs that can be played in standard DVD players generally have 1..4 VOB files of about 1G each, and that's where the stuff you want probably is. If you can get VOB files and play them using mplayer/xine, you've got something, and you can probably put those things back into a better DVD with some work. > larry@hammerhead:cdrecord -toc dev=/dev/sr0 > track: 1 lba: 0 (0) 00:02:00 adr: 1 control: 4 mode: -1 > track:lout lba: 1989840 ( 7959360) -1:59:74 adr: 1 control: 4 mode: -1 > > Me, I don't see anything helpful there. 1 track, no indication of multisession, I think. Er, does cdrecord -msinfo dev=/dev/sr0 say anything? I don't have any multisession non-fixated discs sitting around right now to do an experiment. -- Matt G / Dances With Crows The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Matt Graham wrote: > From: Dazed_75 > > I was able to "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null bs=1M count=5" as you > > suggested so I did the whole thing with of=japanese.iso and tried > > mounting that with Archive Mounter with no success > > It's definitely a data DVD of some type, then. > > > Lastly I used hd [to write] some of it to a file > > The strings in the file say that it was supposed to be UDF. However, if > you > try to mount it as UDF, it says something like "can't find a superblock at > the > end of the image". If it's supposed to be UDF, then the first thing I'd > try > is to dd the whole thing to a file, then run fsck.udf on that file, and > see if > that can reconstruct the superblock or at least make the first few VOB > files > readable. Note that the fsck you need may be called udffsck, and it might > not > be installed. The fsck for UDF should be available on all distros. > I could not find it anywhere While searchung Synaptic for it I did fins dares and dares-qt. It found 53 files and built a recover.iso but that does di not seem to be helpful either. > > It may also be that it was burned as a multisession DVD and never fixated, > or > it had 2 sessions and the second session was messed up. "cdrecord -toc > dev=/dev/scd0" will tell you how many sessions it has. > larry@hammerhead:cdrecord -toc dev=/dev/sr0 Device type: Removable CD-ROM Version: 5 Response Format: 2 Capabilities : Vendor_info: 'HL-DT-ST' Identification : 'DVDRAM GH22NS50 ' Revision : 'TN02' Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD-R/DVD-RW. Using generic SCSI-3/mmc DVD-R(W) driver (mmc_mdvd). Driver flags : SWABAUDIO BURNFREE Supported modes: PACKET SAO first: 1 last 1 track: 1 lba: 0 (0) 00:02:00 adr: 1 control: 4 mode: -1 track:lout lba: 1989840 ( 7959360) -1:59:74 adr: 1 control: 4 mode: -1 larry@hammerhead: Me, I don't see anything helpful there. If it were made as mult-session, only one session recorded and it was never finalized, what would I expect to see? More sessions? I don't see any indication. > > try to get some details from her brother about how he > > made it. I doubt that she will be able to. > > If the DVD is damaged at the very edge, where the fs said it was looking > for > the superblock, or there's multisession oddness going on, that could cause > the > problems you reported. > > -- > Matt G / Dances With Crows > The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ > There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see > > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Matt Graham > wrote: > > > > > > > > Are you sure this is actually a DVD, and not something weird like a > > > DVD-sized > > > SVCD? All the DVDs I've seen and heard about can be mounted as either > > > iso9660 > > > or udf. Can you do something like "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null bs=1M > > > count=5" > > > and not get an I/O error? That command should error out on something > like > > > an > > > SVCD that doesn't have 2048-byte sectors. If dd'ing the first few M > > > actually > > > works, then the filesystem on the DVD is probably messed up in some way > > > that > > > this old player can handle, but other things can't. > > > > > > If this is a VCD-like thing, then vcdxrip may be able to get the video > > > stream > > > off the device, and mplayer can play VCDs. > > > > > > > larry@hammerhead:~$ regionset /dev/sr0 > > > > drive plays discs from region(s):, mask=0xFF > > > > So I think you are right that yours was not set for any region as was > > > mine > > > > > > Then it's probably not region problems. > > > > > > -- > > > Matt G / Dances With Crows > > > The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ > > > There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see > > > > > > --- > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry > > > > Please protect my address like I protect yours. When sending messages to > > multiple recipients, always use the BCC: (Blind carbon copy) and not To: > or > > CC:. Remove all addresses from the message body before sending a > Forwarded > > message. This can prevent spy programs capturing addresses from the > > recipient list and message body. > > > > > - > > Attachment: jdump.txt > > MIME Type: text/plain > > - > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry Please protect my address like I protect yours. When sendin
Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
From: Dazed_75 > I was able to "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null bs=1M count=5" as you > suggested so I did the whole thing with of=japanese.iso and tried > mounting that with Archive Mounter with no success It's definitely a data DVD of some type, then. > Lastly I used hd [to write] some of it to a file The strings in the file say that it was supposed to be UDF. However, if you try to mount it as UDF, it says something like "can't find a superblock at the end of the image". If it's supposed to be UDF, then the first thing I'd try is to dd the whole thing to a file, then run fsck.udf on that file, and see if that can reconstruct the superblock or at least make the first few VOB files readable. Note that the fsck you need may be called udffsck, and it might not be installed. The fsck for UDF should be available on all distros. It may also be that it was burned as a multisession DVD and never fixated, or it had 2 sessions and the second session was messed up. "cdrecord -toc dev=/dev/scd0" will tell you how many sessions it has. > try to get some details from her brother about how he > made it. I doubt that she will be able to. If the DVD is damaged at the very edge, where the fs said it was looking for the superblock, or there's multisession oddness going on, that could cause the problems you reported. -- Matt G / Dances With Crows The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see > On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Matt Graham wrote: > > > > > Are you sure this is actually a DVD, and not something weird like a > > DVD-sized > > SVCD? All the DVDs I've seen and heard about can be mounted as either > > iso9660 > > or udf. Can you do something like "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null bs=1M > > count=5" > > and not get an I/O error? That command should error out on something like > > an > > SVCD that doesn't have 2048-byte sectors. If dd'ing the first few M > > actually > > works, then the filesystem on the DVD is probably messed up in some way > > that > > this old player can handle, but other things can't. > > > > If this is a VCD-like thing, then vcdxrip may be able to get the video > > stream > > off the device, and mplayer can play VCDs. > > > > > larry@hammerhead:~$ regionset /dev/sr0 > > > drive plays discs from region(s):, mask=0xFF > > > So I think you are right that yours was not set for any region as was > > mine > > > > Then it's probably not region problems. > > > > -- > > Matt G / Dances With Crows > > The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ > > There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see > > > > --- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > -- > Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry > > Please protect my address like I protect yours. When sending messages to > multiple recipients, always use the BCC: (Blind carbon copy) and not To: or > CC:. Remove all addresses from the message body before sending a Forwarded > message. This can prevent spy programs capturing addresses from the > recipient list and message body. > > - > Attachment: jdump.txt > MIME Type: text/plain > - --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
Thanks Matt, Sorry for the delay, yesterday was nuts. I was able to "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null bs=1M count=5" as you suggested so I did the whole thing with of=japanese.iso and tried mounting that with Archive Mounter with no success and the with Archive Manager which gave me an error that it was not an iso0660 format. Lastly I used hd some of it to a file (attached) if anyone wants to see it. I'm going to have her try to get some details from her brother about how he made it. I doubt that she will be able to. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Matt Graham wrote: > > Are you sure this is actually a DVD, and not something weird like a > DVD-sized > SVCD? All the DVDs I've seen and heard about can be mounted as either > iso9660 > or udf. Can you do something like "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null bs=1M > count=5" > and not get an I/O error? That command should error out on something like > an > SVCD that doesn't have 2048-byte sectors. If dd'ing the first few M > actually > works, then the filesystem on the DVD is probably messed up in some way > that > this old player can handle, but other things can't. > > If this is a VCD-like thing, then vcdxrip may be able to get the video > stream > off the device, and mplayer can play VCDs. > > > larry@hammerhead:~$ regionset /dev/sr0 > > drive plays discs from region(s):, mask=0xFF > > So I think you are right that yours was not set for any region as was > mine > > Then it's probably not region problems. > > -- > Matt G / Dances With Crows > The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ > There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry Please protect my address like I protect yours. When sending messages to multiple recipients, always use the BCC: (Blind carbon copy) and not To: or CC:. Remove all addresses from the message body before sending a Forwarded message. This can prevent spy programs capturing addresses from the recipient list and message body. 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 8000 00 42 45 41 30 31 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.BEA01..| 8010 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 8800 00 4e 53 52 30 33 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.NSR03..| 8810 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 9000 00 54 45 41 30 31 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.TEA01..| 9010 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 0001 01 00 03 00 dd 00 01 00 bf 08 f0 01 20 00 00 00 | ...| 00010010 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 44 56 44 5f 56 49 44 |.DVD_VID| 00010020 45 4f 5f 52 45 43 4f 52 44 45 52 00 00 00 00 00 |EO_RECORDER.| 00010030 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 13 01 00 01 00 02 00 02 00 || 00010040 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 08 34 31 31 31 32 65 39 |.41112e9| 00010050 61 44 56 44 5f 55 44 46 20 44 56 44 5f 56 49 44 |aDVD_UDF DVD_VID| 00010060 45 4f 5f 52 45 43 4f 52 44 45 52 00 00 00 00 00 |EO_RECORDER.| 00010070 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 000100c0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 23 00 4f 53 54 41 20 43 6f |...#.OSTA Co| 000100d0 6d 70 72 65 73 73 65 64 20 55 6e 69 63 6f 64 65 |mpressed Unicode| 000100e0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 00010100 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 4f 53 54 41 20 43 6f |.OSTA Co| 00010110 6d 70 72 65 73 73 65 64 20 55 6e 69 63 6f 64 65 |mpressed Unicode| 00010120 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 00010170 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 1c 12 dc 07 08 11 05 34 |...4| 00010180 35 00 00 00 00 2a 4d 45 49 5f 56 45 44 00 00 00 |5*MEI_VED...| 00010190 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 00010800 04 00 03 00 03 00 01 00 e3 06 f0 01 21 00 00 00 |!...| 00010810 02 00 00 00 00 2a 55 44 46 20 4c 56 20 49 6e 66 |.*UDF LV Inf| 00010820 6f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 |o...| 00010830 00 00 00 00 00 4f 53 54 41 20 43 6f 6d 70 72 65 |.OSTA Compre| 00010840 73 73 65 64 20 55 6e 69 63 6f 64 65 00 00 00 00 |ssed Unicode| 00010850 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 00010870 00 00 00 00 08 44 56 44 5f 56 49 44 45 4f 5f 52 |.DVD_VIDEO_R| 00010880 45 43 4f 52 44 45 52 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |ECORDER.| 00010890 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || * 000108f0 00 00 00 13 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 || 00010900 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
From: Dazed_75 > this DVD has been tried in 5 players and on 2 computers. The only > on that will play it is a 5 year old all region player belonging to the > lady's friend somewhere across town. > Matt, I do not know what the video encoding is. > larry@hammerhead:~$ mount -t iso9660 /dev/sr0 /media/dvd/ > mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr0, Are you sure this is actually a DVD, and not something weird like a DVD-sized SVCD? All the DVDs I've seen and heard about can be mounted as either iso9660 or udf. Can you do something like "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/dev/null bs=1M count=5" and not get an I/O error? That command should error out on something like an SVCD that doesn't have 2048-byte sectors. If dd'ing the first few M actually works, then the filesystem on the DVD is probably messed up in some way that this old player can handle, but other things can't. If this is a VCD-like thing, then vcdxrip may be able to get the video stream off the device, and mplayer can play VCDs. > larry@hammerhead:~$ regionset /dev/sr0 > drive plays discs from region(s):, mask=0xFF > So I think you are right that yours was not set for any region as was mine Then it's probably not region problems. -- Matt G / Dances With Crows The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
Thanks for the replies folks! Derek, this DVD has been tried in 5 players and on 2 computers. The only on that will play it is a 5 year old all region player belonging to the lady's friend somewhere across town. Matt, I do not know what the video encoding is. larry@hammerhead:~$ regionset /dev/sr0 regionset version 0.1 -- reads/sets region code on DVD drives Current Region Code settings: RPC Phase: II type: NONE vendor resets available: 4 user controlled changes resets available: 5 drive plays discs from region(s):, mask=0xFF Would you like to change the region setting of your drive? [y/n]:y Enter the new region number for your drive [1..8]:2 New mask: 0xFFFD, correct? [y/n]:y Region code set successfully! larry@hammerhead:~$ man mount larry@hammerhead:~$ mount -t iso9660 /dev/sr0 /media/dvd/ mount: only root can do that larry@hammerhead:~$ sudo mount -t iso9660 /dev/sr0 /media/dvd/ mount: block device /dev/sr0 is write-protected, mounting read-only mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr0, missing codepage or helper program, or other error In some cases useful info is found in syslog - try dmesg | tail or so So I think you are right that yours was not set for any region as was mine and now I have set it back to region 1 (saw no way to UNset 2). On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Matt Graham wrote: > From: Dazed_75 > > Helping a Japanese friend trying to play a DVD her brother in Japan made. > > It plays in someone else’s all region DVD player > > So it's a regular DVD with MPEG-2 video on it? > > > UDF-fs: error (sr0): __udf_read_inode: (ino 1989838) failed > > UDF-fs: Failed to read VAT inode from the last recorded > > block (1989838), retrying > > This probably doesn't have a UDF filesystem on it. Try mounting it with -t > iso9660 . You may have to turn your automounter off temporarily. Region > codes may be another factor. If you have regionset installed, run > "regionset > /dev/scd0" with a DVD in the drive, see what that tells you. Mine says > "drive > plays discs from region(s):, mask=0xFF" which makes me think it's > region-free, > but I don't know for sure since all I have are region 1 DVDs. > > > IN=virbr0 OUT=MAC=01:00:5e:00:00:01:da:48:0c:9b:27:c4:08:00 > > DF PROTO=2 > > > > Does anyone know if that DF PROTO means region 2 which includes Japan? > > That's a networking message, as the network interface name virbr0 and the > MAC > and the IP address should've told you. PROTO 2 is IGMP, which is really > not > relevant to your DVD problem. You may want to take your firewall and tell > it > to be less verbose. > > -- > Matt G / Dances With Crows > The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ > There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry Please protect my address like I protect yours. When sending messages to multiple recipients, always use the BCC: (Blind carbon copy) and not To: or CC:. Remove all addresses from the message body before sending a Forwarded message. This can prevent spy programs capturing addresses from the recipient list and message body. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
From: Dazed_75 > Helping a Japanese friend trying to play a DVD her brother in Japan made. > It plays in someone else’s all region DVD player So it's a regular DVD with MPEG-2 video on it? > UDF-fs: error (sr0): __udf_read_inode: (ino 1989838) failed > UDF-fs: Failed to read VAT inode from the last recorded > block (1989838), retrying This probably doesn't have a UDF filesystem on it. Try mounting it with -t iso9660 . You may have to turn your automounter off temporarily. Region codes may be another factor. If you have regionset installed, run "regionset /dev/scd0" with a DVD in the drive, see what that tells you. Mine says "drive plays discs from region(s):, mask=0xFF" which makes me think it's region-free, but I don't know for sure since all I have are region 1 DVDs. > IN=virbr0 OUT=MAC=01:00:5e:00:00:01:da:48:0c:9b:27:c4:08:00 > DF PROTO=2 > > Does anyone know if that DF PROTO means region 2 which includes Japan? That's a networking message, as the network interface name virbr0 and the MAC and the IP address should've told you. PROTO 2 is IGMP, which is really not relevant to your DVD problem. You may want to take your firewall and tell it to be less verbose. -- Matt G / Dances With Crows The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Helping a Japanese Ftiend
These appear to be the errors that are keeping you from mounting the DVD. It looks like that drive thinks the DVD is broken. Brian Cluff On 09/12/2012 05:37 PM, Dazed_75 wrote: [ 132.095180] UDF-fs: error (device sr0): udf_read_tagged: read failed, block=2394887184, location=0 [ 132.095185] UDF-fs: warning (device sr0): udf_fill_super: No fileset found --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Helping a Japanese Ftiend
Helping a Japanese friend trying to play a DVD her brother in Japan made. It plays in someone else’s all region DVD player We bought her one too and today we tried it with no success. I brought the DVD home with me thinking I might be able to learn something with my Kinux machine. When I put it in I got this: and dmesg shows larry@hammerhead:~$ dmesg | tail [ 50.798300] [UFW BLOCK] IN=virbr0 OUT= MAC=01:00:5e:00:00:01:da:48:0c:9b:27:c4:08:00 SRC=0.0.0.0 DST=224.0.0.1 LEN=32 TOS=0x00 PREC=0xC0 TTL=1 ID=0 DF PROTO=2 [ 132.090169] UDF-fs: error (device sr0): __udf_read_inode: (ino 1989838) failed !bh [ 132.091448] UDF-fs: error (device sr0): __udf_read_inode: (ino 1989837) failed !bh [ 132.092650] UDF-fs: error (device sr0): __udf_read_inode: (ino 1989836) failed !bh [ 132.093885] UDF-fs: error (device sr0): __udf_read_inode: (ino 1989835) failed !bh [ 132.093893] UDF-fs: Failed to read VAT inode from the last recorded block (1989838), retrying with the last block of the device (1989839). [ 132.095153] UDF-fs: Filesystem marked read-only because writing to pseudooverwrite partition is not implemented [ 132.095180] UDF-fs: error (device sr0): udf_read_tagged: read failed, block=2394887184, location=0 [ 132.095185] UDF-fs: warning (device sr0): udf_fill_super: No fileset found [ 175.959696] [UFW BLOCK] IN=virbr0 OUT= MAC=01:00:5e:00:00:01:da:48:0c:9b:27:c4:08:00 SRC=0.0.0.0 DST=224.0.0.1 LEN=32 TOS=0x00 PREC=0xC0 TTL=1 ID=0 DF PROTO=2 larry@hammerhead:~$ Does anyone know if that DF PROTO means region 2 which includes Japan? Any other ideas I might try to learn what is going on? -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry Please protect my address like I protect yours. When sending messages to multiple recipients, always use the BCC: (Blind carbon copy) and not To: or CC:. Remove all addresses from the message body before sending a Forwarded message. This can prevent spy programs capturing addresses from the recipient list and message body. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
