RE: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
Personally, I would rather build my own systems. My current main pc is housed in a mountainmods.com 24x24" case with 8x120mm fans providing plenty of space and cooling for the 3k in parts that I put in it. There is definitely something to be said for building your own pc. You know the parts and its easier to replace a generic sized mobo or cpu fan than it is to replace a dell proprietary mobo or cpu fan. Just my 2 cents. --Gnunixguy -Original Message- From: Alex Dean Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:04 PM To: Main PLUG discussion list Subject: Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline On Jun 30, 2010, at 2:42 PM, Matt Graham wrote: > From: Alex Dean >> On Jun 30, 2010, at 1:11 PM, keith smith wrote: >>> Reliability is important to me. I just don't fee like I want to >>> research components, buy them and build them. >> I built my first from-scratch system about a year ago. I doubt I >> saved any money. The main reasons I did it were 1. I got exactly >> what >> I wanted, without bundled junk I didn't want etc. and 2. it was fun. > > In general, Dell, HPCompaq, Gateway, et al tend to buy the cheapest > components > possible for their low-end machines. This often leads to sporadic > problems > due to cheap parts behaving marginally, and the user tends to blame > the > failures on Microsoft or viruses or hackers. BTDT with a marginal > micro-ATX > board from Gateway and another craptastic micro-ATX board from > Asus. The > motherboard is the most complex part in an x86, the most difficult to > remove/replace, and the hardest thing to diagnose problems with. As > such, I'd > rather spend money on a *good* motherboard than on any other > component. And > yes, most of the bundled things you get from major vendors are totally > worthless. > >> If it were anything but an in-home machine I would have stuck with a >> commercial vendor. > > The nice thing about buying parts is that you can often re-use the > old parts > you have that still work. That can lead to saving money in the long > run. The > ATX case I have is 8 years old, my speakers 11 years old, and my DEC > Tulip PCI > card is probably 13 years old. Of course, you have to do some > screwdriver-fu > to put an x86 together from parts. A well-designed case makes this > a hell of > a lot simpler than a badly-designed case. > > Basically, if your time is important to you, you should spend some > extra money > on quality parts. That way, you can spend much more time fooling with > software problems instead of hardware problems. All good points. After several years of retrofitting aftermarket components into a teeny Dell case, it was pretty nice to work in a case which was actually designed to have my big fat hands in it. (I should mention I bought this dell mini-tower in about 2001, and have had 0 problems. Still runs like a champ.) One other benefit I didn't mention, but which might be relevant to some... my nephew got to help me put the machine together. I think there's a lot of value in showing kids how computers are put together, and give them a sense that it's something you can really dig into and understand. He got really interested in it, and it was a lot of fun to have his help. alex --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
On Jun 30, 2010, at 2:42 PM, Matt Graham wrote: From: Alex Dean On Jun 30, 2010, at 1:11 PM, keith smith wrote: Reliability is important to me. I just don't fee like I want to research components, buy them and build them. I built my first from-scratch system about a year ago. I doubt I saved any money. The main reasons I did it were 1. I got exactly what I wanted, without bundled junk I didn't want etc. and 2. it was fun. In general, Dell, HPCompaq, Gateway, et al tend to buy the cheapest components possible for their low-end machines. This often leads to sporadic problems due to cheap parts behaving marginally, and the user tends to blame the failures on Microsoft or viruses or hackers. BTDT with a marginal micro-ATX board from Gateway and another craptastic micro-ATX board from Asus. The motherboard is the most complex part in an x86, the most difficult to remove/replace, and the hardest thing to diagnose problems with. As such, I'd rather spend money on a *good* motherboard than on any other component. And yes, most of the bundled things you get from major vendors are totally worthless. If it were anything but an in-home machine I would have stuck with a commercial vendor. The nice thing about buying parts is that you can often re-use the old parts you have that still work. That can lead to saving money in the long run. The ATX case I have is 8 years old, my speakers 11 years old, and my DEC Tulip PCI card is probably 13 years old. Of course, you have to do some screwdriver-fu to put an x86 together from parts. A well-designed case makes this a hell of a lot simpler than a badly-designed case. Basically, if your time is important to you, you should spend some extra money on quality parts. That way, you can spend much more time fooling with software problems instead of hardware problems. All good points. After several years of retrofitting aftermarket components into a teeny Dell case, it was pretty nice to work in a case which was actually designed to have my big fat hands in it. (I should mention I bought this dell mini-tower in about 2001, and have had 0 problems. Still runs like a champ.) One other benefit I didn't mention, but which might be relevant to some... my nephew got to help me put the machine together. I think there's a lot of value in showing kids how computers are put together, and give them a sense that it's something you can really dig into and understand. He got really interested in it, and it was a lot of fun to have his help. alex --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
From: Alex Dean > On Jun 30, 2010, at 1:11 PM, keith smith wrote: >> Reliability is important to me. I just don't fee like I want to >> research components, buy them and build them. > I built my first from-scratch system about a year ago. I doubt I > saved any money. The main reasons I did it were 1. I got exactly what > I wanted, without bundled junk I didn't want etc. and 2. it was fun. In general, Dell, HPCompaq, Gateway, et al tend to buy the cheapest components possible for their low-end machines. This often leads to sporadic problems due to cheap parts behaving marginally, and the user tends to blame the failures on Microsoft or viruses or hackers. BTDT with a marginal micro-ATX board from Gateway and another craptastic micro-ATX board from Asus. The motherboard is the most complex part in an x86, the most difficult to remove/replace, and the hardest thing to diagnose problems with. As such, I'd rather spend money on a *good* motherboard than on any other component. And yes, most of the bundled things you get from major vendors are totally worthless. > If it were anything but an in-home machine I would have stuck with a > commercial vendor. The nice thing about buying parts is that you can often re-use the old parts you have that still work. That can lead to saving money in the long run. The ATX case I have is 8 years old, my speakers 11 years old, and my DEC Tulip PCI card is probably 13 years old. Of course, you have to do some screwdriver-fu to put an x86 together from parts. A well-designed case makes this a hell of a lot simpler than a badly-designed case. Basically, if your time is important to you, you should spend some extra money on quality parts. That way, you can spend much more time fooling with software problems instead of hardware problems. -- Matt G / Dances With Crows The Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress/ There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
On Jun 30, 2010, at 1:11 PM, keith smith wrote: Both ways have their down sides. I used to buy and build. Then I started buying Dells. I have saved some time and maybe even some money. If one of them fails I loose both time and money. Reliability is important to me. I just don't fee like I want to research components, buy them and build them. Maybe I need to revisit this whole thing next time I buy a new system. I built my first from-scratch system about a year ago. I doubt I saved any money. The main reasons I did it were 1. I got exactly what I wanted, without bundled junk I didn't want etc. and 2. it was fun. If it were anything but an in-home machine I would have stuck with a commercial vendor. alex --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
Both ways have their down sides. I used to buy and build. Then I started buying Dells. I have saved some time and maybe even some money. If one of them fails I loose both time and money. Reliability is important to me. I just don't fee like I want to research components, buy them and build them. Maybe I need to revisit this whole thing next time I buy a new system. Keith Smith --- On Wed, 6/30/10, Stephen wrote: From: Stephen Subject: Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline To: "Main PLUG discussion list" Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 8:38 AM This is pretty much the norm across HP, Dell, Acer/Gateway, any of this tier of vendor. the 2 options i find is buying my own parts and building the machines, however i cannot meet these prices (usually) for the bottom line, but i rarely have issues with the parts i buy. (i thank 4 years in tech support/R&D with an OEM white-box company for this) however dell treats its optiplex lines very differently than its other lines and they are built with a better standard of hardware. usually less flexible but more reliable. in 120 machines i had one failure of a nic port, which was replaced very easily (board swap). On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Technomage wrote: Interestingly enough, one of my clients had a newer model dell (less than 3 years old) buy the farm as a result of bad caps (5 of them along the regulator strip on the motherboard had popped, one explosively so). I gave her my last remaining working older machine (and older AMD 3200+ 32 bit machine) that actually seemed to work *better* than the machine she originally brought to me. Unfortunately, the hardware failure also resulted in her OS (windows xp pro) having issues that took me multiple tries and finally a full blown re-install to get corrected (the last at my cost). The situation as reported in the news article is actually a lot more common than people are lead to believe. as companies try to maximize their bottom line, they tend to cut corners (like finding apparently cheaper vendors for some parts of their product line, etc). as stated, dell wasn't the only one to have these problems (caused in large part by financial pressure to get things done on the cheap). I have at some point worked on many machines (and other pieces or hardware) produced by a variety or foreign or domestic firms where cheap caps were the primary cause of failure (computer PSU's being the most common among them). anyone here know how all this got started? a little piece of botched industrial espionage in Japan where a Taiwanese competitor tried to steal the formula for the electrolyte compound used in the production of capacitors. Only they got the incomplete formula missing the depolarizing agent (the chemical that prevents both electrolytic breakdown and oxidation of the metal strips used in such devices). the problem wasn't discovered until almost 2 years later when caps started exploding in cheap power supplies. here's a wiki on the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague what is more amazing, some of these bad caps are still sitting on store shelves in some shops waiting to be sold or being used in new equipment (such as the new wireless N routers and other consumer gear). On 6/29/10 4:41 PM, keith smith wrote: I have 3 Dells and might not buy anything new until next year. I'm now considering another vendor even though I have had great experience with their products and service. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/In-FaultyComputer-Suit-Window-nytimes-2375403564.html?x=0 Keith Smith --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen -Inline Attachment Follows- --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
This is pretty much the norm across HP, Dell, Acer/Gateway, any of this tier of vendor. the 2 options i find is buying my own parts and building the machines, however i cannot meet these prices (usually) for the bottom line, but i rarely have issues with the parts i buy. (i thank 4 years in tech support/R&D with an OEM white-box company for this) however dell treats its optiplex lines very differently than its other lines and they are built with a better standard of hardware. usually less flexible but more reliable. in 120 machines i had one failure of a nic port, which was replaced very easily (board swap). On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Technomage wrote: > Interestingly enough, one of my clients had a newer model dell (less than > 3 years old) buy the farm as a result of bad caps > (5 of them along the regulator strip on the motherboard had popped, one > explosively so). I gave her my last remaining > working older machine (and older AMD 3200+ 32 bit machine) that actually > seemed to work *better* than the machine > she originally brought to me. > > Unfortunately, the hardware failure also resulted in her OS (windows xp > pro) having issues that took me multiple > tries and finally a full blown re-install to get corrected (the last at my > cost). > > The situation as reported in the news article is actually a lot more common > than people are lead to believe. as companies try > to maximize their bottom line, they tend to cut corners (like finding > apparently cheaper vendors for some parts of their > product line, etc). as stated, dell wasn't the only one to have these > problems (caused in large part by financial pressure > to get things done on the cheap). I have at some point worked on many > machines (and other pieces or hardware) produced by > a variety or foreign or domestic firms where cheap caps were the primary > cause of failure (computer PSU's being the most common > among them). > > anyone here know how all this got started? a little piece of botched > industrial espionage in Japan where a Taiwanese competitor > tried to steal the formula for the electrolyte compound used in the > production of capacitors. Only they got the incomplete formula > missing the depolarizing agent (the chemical that prevents both > electrolytic breakdown and oxidation of the metal strips used in > such devices). the problem wasn't discovered until almost 2 years later > when caps started exploding in cheap power supplies. > > here's a wiki on the article: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague > > what is more amazing, some of these bad caps are still sitting on store > shelves in some shops waiting to be sold or being used in > new equipment (such as the new wireless N routers and other consumer gear). > > > > On 6/29/10 4:41 PM, keith smith wrote: > > I have 3 Dells and might not buy anything new until next year. I'm now > considering another vendor even though I have had great experience with > their products and service. > > > http://finance.yahoo.com/news/In-FaultyComputer-Suit-Window-nytimes-2375403564.html?x=0 > > > > Keith Smith > > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
This is not an uncommon occurrence. It's been going on since the home brew days. For a while, the now extinct VA Linux couldn't produce machines because they couldn't find ram of high enough quality to keep up with their demanding tests. Capacitors are not the only components that exhibit this behavior. Resistors and more commonly components used in power supplies are very often points of failure. The temptation to use either cheaper parts, or the temptation of component manufacturers to slightly over rate their components' capabilities is sometimes just too great to resist. My $0.02 From: Technomage To: plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Sent: Tue, June 29, 2010 7:03:07 PM Subject: Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline Interestingly enough, one of my clients had a newer model dell (less than 3 years old) buy the farm as a result of bad caps (5 of them along the regulator strip on the motherboard had popped, one explosively so). I gave her my last remaining working older machine (and older AMD 3200+ 32 bit machine) that actually seemed to work *better* than the machine she originally brought to me. Unfortunately, the hardware failure also resulted in her OS (windows xp pro) having issues that took me multiple tries and finally a full blown re-install to get corrected (the last at my cost). The situation as reported in the news article is actually a lot more common than people are lead to believe. as companies try to maximize their bottom line, they tend to cut corners (like finding apparently cheaper vendors for some parts of their product line, etc). as stated, dell wasn't the only one to have these problems (caused in large part by financial pressure to get things done on the cheap). I have at some point worked on many machines (and other pieces or hardware) produced by a variety or foreign or domestic firms where cheap caps were the primary cause of failure (computer PSU's being the most common among them). anyone here know how all this got started? a little piece of botched industrial espionage in Japan where a Taiwanese competitor tried to steal the formula for the electrolyte compound used in the production of capacitors. Only they got the incomplete formula missing the depolarizing agent (the chemical that prevents both electrolytic breakdown and oxidation of the metal strips used in such devices). the problem wasn't discovered until almost 2 years later when caps started exploding in cheap power supplies. here's a wiki on the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague what is more amazing, some of these bad caps are still sitting on store shelves in some shops waiting to be sold or being used in new equipment (such as the new wireless N routers and other consumer gear). On 6/29/10 4:41 PM, keith smith wrote: I have 3 Dells and might not buy anything new until next year. I'm now considering another vendor even though I have had great experience with their products and service. > >http://finance.yahoo.com/news/In-FaultyComputer-Suit-Window-nytimes-2375403564.html?x=0 > > > >Keith Smith > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
Interestingly enough, one of my clients had a newer model dell (less than 3 years old) buy the farm as a result of bad caps (5 of them along the regulator strip on the motherboard had popped, one explosively so). I gave her my last remaining working older machine (and older AMD 3200+ 32 bit machine) that actually seemed to work *better* than the machine she originally brought to me. Unfortunately, the hardware failure also resulted in her OS (windows xp pro) having issues that took me multiple tries and finally a full blown re-install to get corrected (the last at my cost). The situation as reported in the news article is actually a lot more common than people are lead to believe. as companies try to maximize their bottom line, they tend to cut corners (like finding apparently cheaper vendors for some parts of their product line, etc). as stated, dell wasn't the only one to have these problems (caused in large part by financial pressure to get things done on the cheap). I have at some point worked on many machines (and other pieces or hardware) produced by a variety or foreign or domestic firms where cheap caps were the primary cause of failure (computer PSU's being the most common among them). anyone here know how all this got started? a little piece of botched industrial espionage in Japan where a Taiwanese competitor tried to steal the formula for the electrolyte compound used in the production of capacitors. Only they got the incomplete formula missing the depolarizing agent (the chemical that prevents both electrolytic breakdown and oxidation of the metal strips used in such devices). the problem wasn't discovered until almost 2 years later when caps started exploding in cheap power supplies. here's a wiki on the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague what is more amazing, some of these bad caps are still sitting on store shelves in some shops waiting to be sold or being used in new equipment (such as the new wireless N routers and other consumer gear). On 6/29/10 4:41 PM, keith smith wrote: I have 3 Dells and might not buy anything new until next year. I'm now considering another vendor even though I have had great experience with their products and service. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/In-FaultyComputer-Suit-Window-nytimes-2375403564.html?x=0 Keith Smith --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
OT: In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
I have 3 Dells and might not buy anything new until next year. I'm now considering another vendor even though I have had great experience with their products and service. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/In-FaultyComputer-Suit-Window-nytimes-2375403564.html?x=0 Keith Smith --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
